The Shack
discussion
The Hitler button
"Maybe you never looked properly. Or at all?! Were you only expecting to see a big head in the sky? I hope you actually used some logic and reasoning beyond that of most teenage atheists."Why, you're right! I did use logic and reasoning when considering the claims of faith. What I "expect" to see has no bearing on what I do see.
"I bet if I sat down with Mom and Grandma for a few minutes it would be easy to figure out where the problem is."
Am I to expect that you can sit down with the thousands of denominations of Christianity and unify them as well? Please. You know no more of the truth of the Bible as any of them, which is to say, the reason you are so confident in your interpretation is because it's your interpretation. You read the Bible and came to your conclusions. The problem is, everyone else comes up with different ones. Seems God has a big communication problem.
"Your other complaints are amusing. Yes I've studied the Gospels side by side. I'm very aware of why people like Bart Ehrman come to their lame conclusions. very biased and poorly thought out scholarship. Its funny how so many atheists just love this guy. Hilarious!"
And yet, you offer no counter to anything he says. I suspect that's because he quotes directly from the Bible and you can't refute his arguments.
"People don't generally die for a lie."
Are you kidding me? HAHAHA People die for lies all of the time. Are you claiming Islam to be true? People have been dying for ideas since the dawn of history, and not all of them died for religious ideas. Political ideas are also a strong motivator for martyrdom.
"You don't get false God's unless there's a real God stray from."
Let's test your logic here: You don't get false unicorns unless there's a real unicorn to stray from.
Exactly.
And just another point on Bart Ehrman, the only "conclusion" he has come to is that the Bible is not inerrant, as that can be demonstrably shown not only through discrepancies, but from the earliest manuscripts we have, which are vastly changed from today's Bible. There are even entire stories that weren't in earlier copies, like the story of Jesus and the adulteress, "He who is without sin..." That story doesn't appear in ANY copies of the Bible until later. To then NOT conclude that the Bible is fallible is to be dishonest as a scholar.I don't know why I'm defending him as you haven't shown anything he has said to be wrong, but please do if you can.
Will quote:"Am I to expect that you can sit down with the thousands of denominations of Christianity and unify them as well?"
I didn't dare say I could fix it. just that I could spot the problem. The Bible is very clear that the problem is NOT going to be corrected until God calls it quits. What do you think Satan is busy doing? Although he really doesn't have to do much. People's selfish motives and gullible emotional needs seem to feed religious confusion endlessly.
There are some theological issues that will remain gray areas for now. Mostly because they are possibly NOT that important - and they also allow people's true hearts to shine. God likes us to be able to see ourselves...we learn alot that way.
The easiest way to get a grasp on poor theology or ridiculous personal interpretations of the Bible is: Just see which historical theologians agree with you. If you are totally original: then you mostly screwed up. Or if your Christianity matches that of a pathetic used car salesman (like Benny Hinn or any of those annoying tv preachers) then there's definitely a problem.
Yes Will, people die for their religions all the time. The difference is People don't willingly die for the false religions THEY started.
Will quote:
"You don't get false unicorns unless there's a real unicorn to stray from."
That's the best challenge I think I've had in over a year. Awesome.
"But I don't know anyone (or any religions) that worship Unicorns."
More to follow. Good question.
"The difference is People don't willingly die for the false religions THEY started."Of course they don't, because they know that it's false, but their followers die for it all the same.
"That's the best challenge I think I've had in over a year. Awesome.
'But I don't know anyone (or any religions) that worship Unicorns.'"
Look harder, it's probably out there. I can substitute just about anything in there to show the illogical nature of that statement: You don't get false thetans unless there's real thetans to stray from. I guess that means Scientology is true.
I'm pretty sure I'm done here, though. I just can't get myself to take you seriously when you think that God having the power to destroy us gives Him the right. If you extended this to the real world, you would likely take arms against such a leader.Your idea of God is just so far removed from goodness. I think it's important to look at actions when determining whether or not someone is considered "good." Well, looking at God's actions in the Bible, I'd have to say He isn't looking so loving. Even using himself as a scapegoat for human sins is a dangerous idea, especially since nothing but a little pain was actually sacrificed (Jesus didn't die, after all). It removes the burden of personal responsibility. I don't think there is anything good about that. It also paints everything in black and white, which goes against everything we know about morality. According to Scripture, each sin holds equal weight, and each sin is forgiven equally. In this scenario, you have those that lead good lives who won't go to heaven, and those that commit terrible acts, yet are allowed entry to heaven if only they ask forgiveness. There is no justice in this scenario, one that the faithful would have us believe is a lot more common than is probably accurate. I'm speaking about "deathbed conversions."
I have enjoyed reading all your posts about the shack and the theoligcal isssues - I want to invite you to go to blurringthelines.net - this is the website for my new book which I wrote after I read the shack-you can read a preview there- The main character stuggles with many of the issues you have been talking about hereJerry
As a Christian, I've had too many miracles in my life to shrug my shoulders over this.Many people don't recognize miracles and call them coinkydinks.Thats fine. But how awful is it to think we die and thats it!Hell? I do believe many people suffer a hell on earth and are rewarded for their perserverance in heaven.With a loving and forgiving God as we have, I do not believe anyone, as in deranged men as Hitler will suffer unless it is watching your own deeds and seeing AND feeling the destruction and damage you have caused other human beings.Wouldn't that be HELL?
Rod wrote: "God has not told anyone to kill their neighbor in many thousands of years. When he did give direct orders to kill a neighbor it was pretty specific."If you say the orders no longer apply today then this is good. But the fact that there was once a time that god wanted anyone who worked on sunday to be killed is enough for me to condemn him.
Rod wrote: "What if thousands of pedophiles wanted to move into your town and establish their base of operations there? Would that be acceptable? Would the local police and justice department just ask them nicely to stop? Sometimes justice must be dished out abruptly.
...
I agree with God that sometimes stoning (or murdering?) a serial killer, or dangerous criminal, or someone who is intent on destroying a loving sharing safe community is the only solution.
I'm not sure why you bring up pedophiles and murderers. The scripture I referred to condemns you to death for simply blaspheming the lord. You may also be killed for working on a sunday and many other trivialities. I will never worship this cruel god.
Rod wrote: "Do you have a problem with the founders of Christianity? Or the early history of it? Or the middle and later history of it? I'm curious."
I don't know much about the early history of the church, only that what we do know is speculative. More specifically I have a problem with the teachings of christianity. We are to believe that the only way god could save us from his potential decision to send us all to hell was to have a son, then torture this individual who would suffer on our behalf. What an insidious philosophy for how the would should work? Why should god demand that someone suffer grotesque physical pain as a bribe for his forgiveness? How demented this alleged god is.
When jesus says "turn the other cheek" what does this mean? If someone kills my child shall I present them my other child? If this is some metaphor then jesus is a bad communicator. He should just say what he means. Teaching people with ridiculous riddles is a sign of either madness or stupidity. Whatever it means I don't think any christian really takes it seriously.
Didn't jesus tell people to give up their worldly possessions and follow him? I highly suspect you don't follow this teaching, or believe that somehow it does not apply to you. It seems almost no christian follows this teaching. Almost anyone recognizes that donating "all" of your possessions would be impractical and rather stupid, including christians.
Christopher wrote: "Rod wrote: "God has not told anyone to kill their neighbor in many thousands of years. When he did give direct orders to kill a neighbor it was pretty specific."If you say the orders no longer ap..."
AMEN
Bye Will. I'll miss you.Will quote anyway...
"You don't get false thetans unless there's real thetans to stray from. I guess that means Scientology is true."
Scientology and their Thetans are just rip-offs of Christianity and the Soul God gave us. Does that make Christianity true? No, but it gives us something to research. The Truth of all belief systems usually come out in their Core and origins. But be careful who you trust to give you this information.
Will question:
" when you think that God having the power to destroy us gives Him the right. If you extended this to the real world, you would likely take arms against such a leader."
The best thing is: God doesn't want to destroy us. He made a Heaven for us to enjoy for eternity.
It's just like a Grandparent offering a farm as family inheritance to a Grandchild. If the little snots don't want or appreciate it then there's no reason they should have it. Those who love Grandpa and show it are definitely in the will. I wouldn't take up arms against Grandpa. Its his farm - he can do what he wants.
You can't fight the creator of the universe. He created so much good. Just try and find it. if you can't - that's YOUR problem.
God doesn't even want to destroy us. That's why he made a Hell. There is a silly debate over this amongst very poor theologians. The problem is: most people get their knowledge of Hell from Hollywood and not the Bible.
In Hell you are allowed to do things YOUR way. God won't interfere. The problem is - there's no things. Everything good comes from God.
Will's not here, but he has some good thoughts:" especially since nothing but a little pain was actually sacrificed (Jesus didn't die, after all)."
I'd say there was alot of pain. But that is not the interesting part.
Matthew 27:46
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
That's the big deal right there. Jesus had to be cut off from the fellowship with the father that had been his eternally because he had been bearing the sins of his people, therefore enduring God's wrath.
What was really sacrificed is a relationship with God. Haven't you been paying attention to your Mom and Grandma Will? Or are they not talking about anything important?
Will question:
" those that commit terrible acts, yet are allowed entry to heaven if only they ask forgiveness. There is no justice in this scenario...I'm speaking about "deathbed conversions."
If only they ask forgiveness you say? Who ever told you it was that easy? Your entire heart and soul must be begging forgiveness for your wasted life. You must agree that Jesus paid the price for all your selfish stupidity and that your entire eternity will be according to his will. (that WORD comes up alot eh? Kinda funny. Its all about the WILL isn't it?)
In Heaven we are to be the bride of Christ: God slaves. That's alot more than just saying; "My BAD."
Willi quote:
"Wouldn't that be HELL?"
Not the way the Bible describes it. There's always hope on Earth. There's also God's presence and the Holy Spirit just waiting to be involved in your life and destiny. Hell on earth is only for those that have chosen their destiny already. But people change.
Hell is a human invention Ronald says.
Its funny that most humans do not understand the Hell that God has created. Mankind generally imagines a much weirder and more abusive Hell than God mentions. From historical literature to modern movies - mankind is seriously morbid.
Christopher quote:" god wanted anyone who worked on sunday to be killed is enough for me to condemn him."
Of course it is enough Christopher. I would expect nothing else from you. You don't honor God - why would you honor his rules or covenants?
Exodus 31:16
Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel...
You're not an Israelite so don't worry about it. You also do not have their blessings or protection. It is very simple though: If you don't want God's blessings or protection or want to obey his Sabbath - all you have to do is walk away. There; problem solved. You will only be killed if you disobey God's rules and demand to stay. Everyone is free to walk out the front gates. Or in this case: walk off into the desert by themselves.
The Sabbath is a wonderful thing: I enjoy sunday off.
Christopher question:
"I'm not sure why you bring up pedophiles and murderers."
These are the extremes of justice. Just seeing if we agree on these. Then we can work our way to the minor issues. You can learn alot about people by how they view the necessities of justice.
Christopher question:
" Why should god demand that someone suffer grotesque physical pain as a bribe for his forgiveness? How demented this alleged god is."
Sin equals death. Its in the very beginning of the Bible. The only payment for sin is death. The big problem was: it leaves you DEAD.
If you have NO sin and you die: You beat death. Its only happened once. This is how God wanted it done.
I understand your complaint. It took me awhile to figure this out.
God is the ultimate Judge. No bribes, no mood swings, no light sentences. Sin equals death. Every other religion on the planet says that your good can eventually conquer all. Not the God of the Bible.
God created the system - and then he created the easy solution. I enjoy a God of absolute Justice. much better than the Muslim deity who can be bought off with some terrorist acts.
We are not meant to be perfect. We are meant to search for the solution with our hearts and souls. No where in the Bible does God expect us to be perfect. He expects us to admit we are sinners and need his help.
just like children with parents.
Christopher quote:"When jesus says "turn the other cheek" what does this mean? If someone kills my child shall I present them my other child?"
If it is a personal offence against YOU: then turn the other cheek. If someone offends your child, then he can decide to turn the other cheek.
As a parent you can defend your child to the death. That is your job.
Last time I checked - turning the other cheek is not supposed to kill you.
Some issues are personal, other issues are for society. The Israelite laws explained this. How important did God view protecting his people? To the death. Even over small issues like rebellion and morality. The justice system and government should also support and protect society. God basically says, "Go the extra mile unless it becomes a danger to society." Do not take the law in your own hands. Unless the law isn't there when it should be. Tricky eh? Revenge is mine Sayeth the lord.
Christopher question:
Didn't jesus tell people to give up their worldly possessions and follow him?
No! He did mention it to a few people though. He also enjoyed that some people had houses, donkeys, cups and plates, clothes. We need rich Christians and we need some poor dedicated world travelling Christians. Just like we need married and single Christians.
Also...
Christians shouldn't be killing anyone. God can do his own killing. If only Muslim's and Atheists had this same rule.
I've actually heard it explained that when Jesus said to "turn the other cheek," he was referring to a law which stated that it was illegal to backhand someone, so if someone smacks you, you turn the other cheek to say, "You can beat me, but you will have to break the law to do it."Similarly, when Jesus advises, "If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles," he was referring to a law that stated that Roman soldiers could requisition anyone they please to carry their stuff for them, so he was instructing to go an extra mile to make them feel guilty. Basically, Jesus was employing the strategy of non-violent protesting to the Roman government.
Will wrote: "I've actually heard it explained that when Jesus said to "turn the other cheek," he was referring to a law which stated that it was illegal to backhand someone, so if someone smacks you, you turn t..."A learned and sensible comment.
My spiritual/religious beliefs have changed over the years, and will continue to do so. However, I do have a firm belief that Jesus was a wonderful teacher of innovative methods to deal with an oppressive government. He urged people to follow him in a "new" way of looking at all people as equal.
I find the comments here amusing to read, with people trying their hardest to convince others how much they know about the afterlife...which of course, none of us know anything about since we're all still alive and have not witnessed it ourselves.Just as political parties were created to widely divide us, religious beliefs were also created to widely divide. Funny how many people have fallen into the trap.
We are all human so we're in the exact same group and on the exact same side.
And in this world of living humans, none of us knows the answer to the rhetorical question of the Hitler button, no matter how hard a person tries to convince us otherwise.
Therefore, sharing our hopes and beliefs about things unknown should be taken with a big philosophical grain of salt.
In other words: Stop hatin' on each other. :)
The HATE here has been minimal. That'll change with time i'm sure. :)Is the Jesus of the Trinity against violence? Definitely not. The Bible (Word of God) is filled with violence. Violence is a solution at times. Eventually those times will no longer happen.
IF someone is against violence - they may also be against Justice. They often go together.
Violence in the Bible:
Adam and Eve kicked out of home into a nasty world.
Israelite wars commanded by God.
Very humongous flood that killed just about everyone.
Jesus destroys humanity (lots of blood) in Revelation 19 and 20. Twice he kills Billions.
God doesn't want violence, its just necessary. Love is always the first option ---------then violence.
Now i'll go hide while people stone my house. :)
Rod wrote: "Now i'll go hide while people stone my house. :) "LOL. Take cover!
I will never believe that the Bible was meant to be taken literally and I stubbornly cling to my own interpretations. I believe God's message is love and how is choosing to judge & punish another for all eternity about love? Consider Milton's quote,"The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven". Perhaps Hell is earthly life without love.
Yes Peggy, Love is awesome. The Bible also mentions (very specifically) to be extremely carefully WHO you love. It can affect your eternity.I love the parent scenario:
Your Daddy loves you, provides for you, disciplines you...
Yet you give all your love and attention to someone else's daddy (Buddha, Krishna, false christ, money...)
When it comes time for Daddy to give an inheritance to his children: his kids are off loving somebody else. They've ignored him for a lifetime. He regrets it - but his kids have chosen. He won't force them to love him, but he also won't give them what they haven't asked for.
Alot of people had better hope Milton is correct. Their eternities are riding on it. IF Hell is on earth: Then we sure don't need the Bible. Throw it out.
I say again: You can't have love without Justice. Do you love a drug dealer who is killing your children? No, you give them very exacting Justice. IF someone is about to destroy your home and family - do you give them LOVE...or brutal Justice. That is what God has done throughout the entire Bible: Loving his family and distributing Justice to any who harm his children. Nasty Truth eh?
Christopher wrote: "Suppose there is an afterlife and in this afterlife Hitler has been strapped to a device that will set him on fire for all of eternity. All that is needed to start this torture is the press of a bu..."Some believe that Hell is the absence of God and that you are already there. Your relationship with God or lack thereof is personal and totally up to you.
I believe that the Beatles had it right; All you need is love. Love for yourself and love for your neighbor.
Who am I to judge?
Let God decide in the end or not.
Here's a slightly different take on the question about Hell....If Heaven is a place where those who believe in God are going to worship Him forever, and basically cohabitate with their creator, why would anyone who does not believe in Him (atheists) want to go there?
If the answer is "they wouldn't", then really the question becomes "what do you believe will happen to you in the afterlife if you won't be in Heaven"?
Interesting discussion. I wasn't able to read through it all, it's too much in one go, so apologies if I say something that's already been said. But Rod - I'm interested in what training you have in theology/biblical studies? It seems that you take the Bible literally without necessarily taking context/interpretation/human error/culture into account. I don't profess to know the Bible inside out, but I do know plenty of theologians and biblical scholars (who are also evangelical Christians) who would object to many of the things you are saying. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't believe anyone knows anything for certain, despite how well they know the English (and maybe some Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic, who knows) words of it. Also that despite your strongly-expressed views, the fact is that theologians are constantly discussing interpretations and what the originally written scriptures mean, so the fact is that there ARE other views and they are NOT necessarily wrong if they are different to your own.Re: the hell question, I can't remember exactly how it was worded now, but I don't personally believe that God wants to torture people, and I certainly don't believe that anyone has the right to press a torture button on anyone. I don't believe that God intends anyone to burn in hell, or even that hell is a firey (firy?! Sp?) pit in which all the bad people or non-Christians spend the rest of eternity. I do believe in a 'hell on earth' in the sense that Christians have a responsibility to alleviate that as much as possible in their own settings to bring 'heaven on earth' - but not that atheists, agnostics and people of other faiths do not 'have enough goodness' because they don't believe in God. I do believe that goodness comes from God, but not that it can't be expressed through non-Christians because their 'access is limited'.
I hope this makes some sort of sense - just know that I'm not here to offend anyone, so apologies if I have without meaning to. Also - I'm not going to be converted to another way of thinking and don't have the knowledge to debate it, so don't necessarily expect a response if that's what you want :) just putting in my two cents.
If anyone still cares about the original discussion, no I would not press the button for anyone, and I have serious worries about anyone who would.
The theological understandig for the word Soul, is that it is Spirtual in nature, life, being or essence of the individual human; the unigue person. Often believed to survive after Death. Theological debates have focused on whether the human person consists of spirt and body in addition to Soul, whether the Soul is an enity in distiction from the body or whetever Soul simply refers to the single embodied person as a whole.
Sarah question:" But Rod - I'm interested in what training you have in theology/biblical studies?"
I read 2000 years of historical theology and Biblical commentaries. So there are definitely people throughout history who agree with me. And millions more who don't.
What I attempt to do is see what the Bible clearly says...by reading the literal parts literally, and reading the parables as parables...then read the historical parts as historical.
I know: i'm crazy. But it seems to make a great deal of sense that way. Then see if it all fits together. We call that Systematic theology.
If we don't trust the Bible - then we have absolutely nothing to trust. God has not spoken.
Its interesting that we have 1000's of religions on this planet that borrow Jesus, steal Jesus, warp Jesus, abuse Jesus. I'll trust the writings of the guys who claimed to actually know him.
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Sarah quote:
" take the Bible literally without necessarily taking context/interpretation/human error/culture into account."
I don't recall NOT taking these things into account. Just cause I disagree with some scholars and yet agree with 1000's of others you feel that is the case?
That's the problem with every area of study: everybody is a professional and claims to have the absolute truth. Choose who you believe - chose carefully. Your very soul depends on it.
Well what a long discussion - to add to the confusion I would really recommend C.S.lewis book - the great Divorce, it all about Hell. Great fun.
LOLWhat a shame...
It is pretty terrible, but, ya know, opinions and stuff.
Well yes Opinions, mine is that its a great book The Great Divorce is that what we are talking about, but I liked the Shack too, though it was very creative.
Oh, I see that now. I think C.S. Lewis is kind of a poor theologian/philosopher, but he never had training in it or anything. I'll stick with the Divine Comedy.
I don't believe in Hell. But I believe in reincarnation, and what you do in this life will affect the next.
The problem with reincarnation is the need for proof, and I could go on. However there is a great deal to argue for new life, resurrection and all that.
I'll just stick with the Bible. Seems to work for humanity so far. (well, some of us anyway.)Lots about Hell in the Bible. Seems to be NO mention of Reincarnation. So I'll ignore that thought.
Interesting Will: that's the first time I've heard anyone call C.S. Lewis a poor theologian and philosopher.
He's not one of my favourite. But he was definitely onto something. Mere Christianity was an awesome important book.
I don't think he applied his wisdom well. I always got the impression that his apologetics were always poorly thought out. Even as a Christian in Middle School I was able to point out the flaws in his "trilemma." Anyone as smart as that guy knew he was presenting a poor argument.
Fair enough Will. I don't spend much time with C.S. Lewis. Although the Screwtape Letters was very carefully done. Fairly good theology there. I don't know what you mean by Trilemma. So I can't discuss it with you.
I very much dislike classic literature and poetry. This is not to say it isn't important and brilliant. It's just that my Rock music, video gaming, Car Racing, Action movie upbringing did not prepare me for Patience in this kind of entertainment.
I found C.S. Lewis's Surprised By Joy to be boring and annoying.
Yet I find theology to be endlessly dangerous and as fascinating as the best modern entertainment has to offer. To each their own I guess.
remind me Will, is the trilemma the one that says that Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic or the lord, and as a good moral teacher can't be a lunatic or a liar,then all that remains is he must be the Lord? The one where it fails to take into account that mentally ill people are capable of being moral people and teaching moral lessons, that everyone lies at some points in their lives, but can still make moral teachings, and that there are numerous other options other than the 3 presented, the obvious one being "a myth".
"Screwtape Letters"Yes, that one is fascinating. I enjoyed it on a strictly fictional level. I admit, though, I slowly back away from people who actually think there are invisible demons.
That's the one, Hazel. I remember in Middle School asking something along the lines, "Are those the only three options?" my teacher looked at me sideways and said, "Yes, but these are the only 3 that matter." That made no sense to me, but I accepted it and didn't argue like a good little boy robot. I was taught the Trilemma in school as a way to defend my faith.
Back away Will. There are a few invisible demons about. They are not as dangerous as most people think - generally they are just kind of annoying...yet successful.Sounds good Hazel. Although most of Jesus comments were Heaven and Hell related. AS well as discussing his purpose for dwelling among us.
This would all be useless crap if he were NOT the Messiah. I don't think he discussed morality that much. Not enough to make he remembered for 2000 years.
Buddha probably had way more insights into morality and human goodness. By more I mean - MORE. Not better.
No one's philosophy is more true than your own... I can read CS Lewis
The Shack made me want to scream, I don't know why ???
How can I delete this dumb ass discussion from my "Goodreads" posts?
Joclyn wrote: "How can I delete this dumb ass discussion from my "Goodreads" posts?"A little above the posting box there is a light grey "You are following this discussion" Click on edit and click the option you prefer... :-D
Shanna wrote: "Joclyn wrote: "How can I delete this dumb ass discussion from my "Goodreads" posts?"A little above the posting box there is a light grey "You are following this discussion" Click on edit and clic..."
Thanks Shana!!!
I'm assuming you've clicked out already but you're welcome.
Haha, Shanna, I did click out! Apparently it didn't work, will try agin...
It may still appear in your goodreads discussions, if you have marked the book as one you've read, as an active discussion on this book, either unmark the book as read or ignore it... but you shouldn't get anymore email notifications, in theory... :-)
As long as you've selected "none" when you changed your settings then you won't get any notifications, however, like Shanna said, it will still be on your profile if you have it open on the discussions tab, and its abook you've rated. You can just swap to having the updates tab open instead, which only shows threads your friends have posted on, and any actions they've taken, this way, you'll only see this thread if someone you've friended posts on it and the post appears on your update feed. All I can really advise is that just because you can see the conversation is still happening, that doesn't mean you have to look at it.
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Might does NOT make right.