The Shack
discussion
The Hitler button
I don't believe you should burn and I don't think you will because I believe god's love is stronger than hell and God loves. All god is source if life I don't believe. In Hell
I must confess I don't think anyone deserves an infinite duration of torture, not even Hitler.
I definitely wouldn't press the button for anyone. It's not for me to say who lives and dies. I do believe in hell but it's up to the individual whether they go there or not.
One man's Heaven is another man's Hell.
I believe in God, but I am not sure I believe in hell, at least as it has been defined by some organized religions. I admit I am attracted to the concept that there might be some form of justice in the afterlife since it is not always carried out in the realm of the living. But I have a hard time believing God as The Creator would send any of us to an ultimate (and eternal) destruction. Personally, I think people create their own hell, shackled to their hate, guilt, grief, fear, etc. until they decide to break those chains.
I think you all should read this book:http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11...
Erasing Hell
Francis Chan --
It is easy to make things up, but we should endeavor to seek out what is true.
Carolyn wrote: "I admit I am attracted to the concept that there might be some form of justice in the afterlife since it is not always carried out in the realm of the living."Well, if it's the system established by Christian theologies, there isn't much justice there. After all, "deathbed conversions" allow a person to live an evil life, only to convert at the end; yet someone who has led a good life, but doesn't accept Jesus as a Lord, goes to hell, or, according to a few doctrines, is simply denied the right to live forever worshiping this "just" God.
Will wrote: "Carolyn wrote: "I admit I am attracted to the concept that there might be some form of justice in the afterlife since it is not always carried out in the realm of the living."Well, if it's the sy..."
As I said: I'm not sure I believe in a hell as it has been defined by some organized religions (which would include Christian theologies) so I'm not seeing the relevance to my post.
Carolyn wrote: "As I said: I'm not sure I believe in a hell as it has been defined by some organized religions (which would include Christian theologies) so I'm not seeing the relevance to my post."The relevance is to point out that it's all wishful thinking. Any system of justice in the "afterlife" that you would like there to be has no bearing on reality. Are you simply defining your own religion since you are suggesting a belief in the afterlife, but not one like any that has been posited by religions thus far? I just don't see the point in making up and believing in a life after death, when we have a mess of a world here that we should be focusing on.
I apologize if my post offended you in some way. I was merely responding to Christophers' post, not imposing my personal beliefs on anyone.
You didn't offend me personally in any way. But yes, the idea I am offended by. Because children get told by adults that these ideas are valid. And guess what, it's the same wishful thinking for an eternal life that can seriously warp your world view. Fundamentalist Islam is a good example of the dangers of beliefs in supernatural, especially promises of rewards or justice after death.
I try to focus on this life- even Jesus said "The kingdom of God is within your midst"."The kingdom of God is at hand." I beleive people who do bad things do get their justice- you cannot do destructive acts and have it not effect your your own soul and life
I would never push the button because I am not a perfect, holy, just God. I am an infallible human being and as such I can not judge anyone's heart. None of us are good. None of us live good lives, we have all sinned and fallen short of God's perfection. God does not push the button - you do. You have a choice. I do believe in Hell, I think scripture is clear it exists and exists eternally. What exactly will it entail I do not know. I know that God will not be there however and that alone will make it torture. God does love but He is also just and holy. You can not enter Heaven because you are unholy (as am I and all of us) because we are sinners. The only way of being made right in God's eyes is by believing that Christ took that punishment for you (as He did for me). I now know when God looks at me He sees the righteousness of Jesus instead of my sin. This means that I am able to not only have a relationship with him in Heaven but also here on earth. I am thankful you are asking these questions, it means you are thinking of your eternal future. I pray that you will ask Jesus to save you. BTW - if you want decent theology don't look for it in the Shack.:)
you say scripture is clear on this- but no one know is the scripture is true- beleifs we have are all based on faith- there are no facts in the bibleI think the Shack has great theology-
I think the Shack has unfinished theology. But that's another issue. Justice and absolute Holiness are not dealt with fully.If there is a torture button in Hell? (there's really not.) - then it is NEVER our job to press or decide to inflict pain on anyone.
1 Corinthians 6:2-3 says:
"Or do you not know that the Saints will judge the world?...Do you not know that we are to judge the angels?"
To judge:YES. To condemn or damn? We'll leave that up to God.
I'm not convinced The Bible says there is any pain in hell at all. What purpose would pain or torture accomplish? Its too late to teach anyone a lesson. The only thing Hell really accomplishes is an eternity outside of God's love and rules. I honestly think many people will enjoy Hell more than a very restrictive Heaven.
Luke 16:19-31
...and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off...he called out...water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame...Abraham says, "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead."
So this guy is in Hell and in torment and anguish. Yet manages to have a well thought out conversation and asks for a tiny bit of water to only cool his tongue.
My understanding is: Hell is where you get nothing of what God provides. No water (not even a small bit). No food, no entertainment, no companions...
Anguish and torment are YOUR OWN afflictions. Fire is only there to keep your neighbors from bothering you for an eternity. Who would want Hitler or some crazy sex addicted serial killer to taunt you for all eternity? No where does the Bible mention anyone on fire - or swimming in fire. But there's definitely flames. :(
God is nice enough to give you personal space and safety. You get to be your own god. Make your own rules. Have your own Kingdom...The problem is: it's just YOU! No joys of God's creation or people to share it with.
The worst thing about Hell is: it will be really really boring.
Of course that's only if the Bible is true. If Islam is true: then Allah will endlessly burn off your skin and replace it so you'll be in eternal pain and torture. Not exactly a religion of Peace and love.
All atheists have to do to prove the Bible wrong: Is stop sinning. I'll wait...
Rod wrote: "All atheists have to do to prove the Bible wrong: Is stop sinning. I'll wait..."All Christians have to do to prove the Bible is true: Is stop sinning. I'll wait...
I don't think we are talking about the same Bible then Will. Until Christians are in Heaven - we will sin as well.
1 Timothy 1:15
...That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
If Paul is a sinner, then I'm pretty sure I am too. The difference is: we KNOW it upsets God. Atheists (agnostics) can't even agree on what sin is.
But don't feel bad, most people who claim to be Christians don't read their Bible to actually understand what they think they believe.
Yeah, and CHRISTIANS can agree on what sin is? Please.
It's been agreed upon by Christian apologists and atheists alike that we get our morals from society and empathy towards others. You would be naive to assume that morality is black and white. Do you think it's always a sin to steal? What if it's to save a life? Morality is something we work together as humans to define.
I don't know what Christian apologists you listen too Will. Obviously not the same ones as me.If we DO get our morals from society (as well as empathy?) then many people failed to get the memo. Our prisons are full. We are surrounded by criminals. And our newspapers never run out of crimes to print on a daily basis. So what morals exactly were agreed upon?
Most Christians can't even agree on who Jesus is. Or bother to read their Bibles at all. But we SHOULD be able to agree on sin. Its not that complicated.
Of course maybe you were attempting to say that every society has a different applicable set of endlessly adjustable morals. Is that what you meant? If so - then no Christian should agree on that. atheists can agree on what ever the Hell they want as long as it makes them happy for a few moments. Not exactly a great way to run the planet. But good luck!
Of course it's complicated. Again (I edited my post above), morality is not black and white. Did you know that America, one of the most Christian nations, has the highest rate of prison population per capita in the world, by a large margin over second placed Russia? This has a lot to do with our prison systems being owned by private businesses.On the other hand, a mostly secular/atheistic country like Sweden is #108 on that same list.
But, this is deviating from the argument. The problem with getting morality from some other being outside of space and time was outlined by Socrates in Plato's Euthyphro. It goes:
I. Is something good because God commands it so or does God command it so because it is good?
II. If something is good because the God commands that it is so, then what is morally reprehensible to us can be good.
III. If God commands that it is good because it is good, then the good is greater than God.
IV. So, either the good is arbitrary or good is greater than God.
Rod wrote: "atheists can agree on what ever the Hell they want as long as it makes them happy for a few moments. Not exactly a great way to run the planet. But good luck!"Well yes, the pursuit of knowledge and the truth does make me happy. If that's a bad thing, then I don't know what to tell you. In fact, though, it is a fantastic way to run the planet. You see, those that don't believe in an afterlife have an understanding that it is THIS planet, and THIS life that matters. Not some promise of one somewhere else, which just so happens to be after death, and an eternity, which in comparison to a few years, makes those few years practically meaningless. Who cares what happens to this planet if you're going to be worshiping God for eternity? How is that helping?
This planet is very important. Its what God gave us. That's reason enough for every Christian to look after it. American prisons are NOT full of Christians. They are filled with selfish short sighted folk who don't approve of the basic laws of a nation unless it helps their greed. I also bet America has more laws and police to enforce the availability of Prison cells. This has nothing to do with religion.
If a country has no drug laws - then there will be no drug dealers/makers/users in prison. Doesn't say much for Sweden does it?
If you have no laws: You would have NO prisons.
Your goodness vs. God argument is invalid. You missed the obvious.God and Goodness are the same. Goodness flows from God.
If only we had more atheists looking after this planet: starting orphanages, delivering food supplies, missionary hospitals, schools and career assistance for underprivileged, Soup kitchens.
Sure some atheists are wonderful and helping out. But it sure seems the majority are Christians.
This life is a chance to do all the good we can. If someone claims to be a Christian without doing good - then they are probably lying to themselves.
The pursuit of knowledge and truth can be a crazy misleading adventure pursuing selfish desires. Not everyone seems to want the same truth. There is absolute truth - but not everyone embraces all of it. Some only hold to the small parts they like.
Sex, drugs and Rock n Roll can be a form of truth. but is it really helpful or healthy?
More atheists doing charity? Not only are there plenty of non religious charities, but they also use a larger percentage of their money for their charitable works than religious ones. The average religious charity uses about 10p per £1 donated for charitable work, so thats 10% of donated funds actually go into doing the work the charity claims to do. Whereas, non-religious charities, such as Oxfam, have upwards of 70% of donations going straight into their charitable work, with the rest paying for admin, campaigning and overheads for their charity shops. Amnesty International is a non-religious charity, as is unicef. You keep building straw men to fall down. Who mentioned sex, drugs and rocknroll other than you? You're making pointless statements that in no way support anything that you're saying. Its almost like you're trying to imply that non-christian means loose morals, drug abuse and promiscuity. Keep your strawmen away from the discussion, they're not doing you any favours.
If goodness comes from god, where's your proof for this? Its been shown that anything that can be achieved by religion can be achieved by purely secular means, and with the added bonus if the help not being held ransom to Jesus.
Studies have shown that highly atheist countries have lower crime rates, better healthcare, and generally happier populations than theistic countries. I was looking at charity statistics recently, and the countries that provide the most charitable donations as a percentage of their gross annual product are the highly atheistic and secular countries, with Sweden being up there at number 1. The USA was at 36 in the rankings.
IN prison population studies there are more theistic prisoners, as a percentage of the prison population, than you find in the general population, meaning that they are over represented in prisons in comparison to the general population. The inverse is true with atheists, the percentage of prisoners that are atheist is much lower than the percentage of atheists in the general population, in other words, atheists are under-represented in prisons as compared to the general population.
The only assumptions that can be drawn from this is that theistic people are more likely to commit offences than atheistic people, are more likely to give to charity, and that the non-religious charities are the ones that do the most good with the money that they receive.
You have assumed the existence of god in everything you say, and you do so without any proof that god exists. Do you think that we cannot be good without god? As thats demonstrably not the case.
You're right, there is an absolute truth, but you cannot claim that god is it, as you have no proof that such a thing exists. You make absolute statements of knowledge based on something that you simply cannot claim to know.
you people are so funny- becuase I cant tell which side of which arguement are you all on..... I'm a christian and I must say most of the time i am apologizinf for the way christian treat other people in teh name of their religion- I think I will give up the name christian and just say Im a follower of Jesus
I am more of an Orthodox Heretic when it comes to Religion.
Rod wrote: "My understanding is: Hell is where you get nothing of what God provides. No water (not even a small bit). No food, no entertainment, no companions...Anguish and torment are YOUR OWN afflictions."
What you have described is deprivation, and this is certainly torture. Moreover you have simply left the moral decision up to god. I find the displacement of your own moral responsibility in this way to be immoral. Would you stand by silently and voice no objection as god tortured an individual in this way?
Rod wrote: "If there is a torture button in Hell? (there's really not.) - then it is NEVER our job to press or decide to inflict pain on anyone."
Only you can decide whether you would accept or protest the torture of another. You cannot escape your moral accountability.
Believe it or not, but as of yet there is no Theological understanding as to the best way to discribe Hell.
Perhaps because it's generally spoken about only in Parables. And the Old Testament doesn't even mention it.I mean, the whole thing is obviously man-made, but even still, there is really no clear part of the Bible. The thousands of denominations who claim to know the truth of it is proof.
I'm not here to win a discussion. (that's boring) I'm just poking you guys for your thoughts. That's the real fun. I don't want your answers - I want your questions and concerns.____________________________________________
I don't believe Hell is a torture. Just a very boring location with no luxuries. You don't get any of God's goodness - just your own.
Jesus discusses HELL alot. Just read those and put the pieces together. It's pretty simple. Most people get confused because they start reading classic literature and Hollywood into the scriptures. Just simply read it for what it says.
Luke 16:19-31
Bill wrote: "I am more of an Orthodox Heretic when it comes to Religion."That's the best line i've heard in a while Bill. Awesome!
And Hazel: I think your goodness is incredibly limited without God.
Not all the verses discussing Hell are Parables. Only a few._____________________________________________________
But Jerry where do you stand on your beliefs? I know Mormon's, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims, and people from some pretty far out Christian sects who all claim to follow Jesus.
Which Jesus do you follow? If its the Jesus of the Bible then maybe you should read Revelation again. Jesus is about to Destroy almost all of mankind 2 more times. (Just like he did in the flood during Noah's time.) Read Revelation 19:17-21...........20:7-9
If you are going to follow Jesus. Make sure its the Jesus of the Bible. and not the Quranic Jesus, or the Book of Mormon Jesus, or the New World Translation Jesus, or the amalgamated Hindu Jesus etc.
Rod wrote: "I'm not here to win a discussion. (that's boring) I'm just poking you guys for your thoughts. That's the real fun. I don't want your answers - I want your questions and concerns.I'm happy to oblige.
Rod wrote: "I don't believe Hell is a torture. Just a very boring location with no luxuries. You don't get any of God's goodness - just your own."
You said before that in hell you will be deprived of water and food. We will also no longer possess thirst or hunger? If not then depriving water and food is torture.
Rod- we have no proof of what Jesus really said- we only have people who wrote 30 years after his death their accounts of what he said- and the writers of the four gospels dont even agree on what he ssid- the ressurrection story is diferrent in each gospel-the book of revelation almost didnt make it into the closed canon- the bible- the bishops in 325 AD had to vote twice to get it included-
so lets not use revelation-it was a coded message to the christians of that time so the romans wouldnt understand what John was talking about-
Jerry wrote: "o lets not use revelation-it was a coded message to the christians of that time so the romans wouldnt understand what John was talking about-"Hmmm, maybe. But Revelations is part of a genre of literature called Apocalyptic literature that was really popular at the time. Were they all coded?
Rod wrote: "And Hazel: I think your goodness is incredibly limited without God. "Thanks, way to insult anyone who is an atheist, or believes in something other than your god. I think simply saying that is immoral, you have belittled everyone elses morality, based on them not believing what you believe. How filled with hubris are you? How egotistical to think you're right? I'm disgusted that you can be so prideful and judgemental.
That you think I have to genuflect to an insubstantial idea of a god that has no proven existence in order to be as good as I can be is insulting, and shows that you're immoral, as you're good because of your faith, not because its the right thing to do.
Don't get me wrong, you can think what you like, but do me a favour, and keep your small minded ideas of morality only coming from god to yourself. You're entitled to your opinion, even if it is demonstrably wrong.
Hazel wrote: "Rod wrote: "And Hazel: I think your goodness is incredibly limited without God. "Thanks, way to insult anyone who is an atheist, or believes in something other than your god. I think simply sayin..."
I agree here and I'm a Christian. You can be good and live a moral life without God although obviously Christians believe that goodness comes from God.
Actually, I went too far telling him to keep his small minded ideas to himself, as I fully endorse freedom of speech, and would never honestly prevent someone from having their say, as long as they weren't spouting hate speech. He can say what he like, share as many fundamentally wrong ideas as he likes, and spout as much unsubstantiated bullshit as he wants, even if he is demonstrably wrong.
Hazel wrote: "Actually, I went too far telling him to keep his small minded ideas to himself, as I fully endorse freedom of speech, and would never honestly prevent someone from having their say, as long as they..."When I read what Rod had written I was furious on your behalf (and a little on mine). I seriously thought about responding and then decided to hold back, the Hazel I know is more than capable and eloquent enough to respond. You did not disappoint.
Relax there Hazel (or don't, life goes on either way!)I didn't insult you and say you weren't good. I clearly said your Goodness was LIMITED. I guess I hit a sore spot. And I do thoroughly enjoy my own opinion (which i am constantly evaluating.)
You sure come across as bitter and intolerant Hazel. Is that what you were going for? Personally I love hearing people share their ideas and backing up their beliefs - even if I perceive them as possibly wrong.
The best thing about speaking your mind is: you can always change it if someone explains/proves their point. You've proven nothing so far. Just cause you claim to fully understand morality and societies prison systems doesn't convince me. Apparently your followers are easily persuaded.
I was thoroughly disappointed. :(
We've hit on alot of topics here. In order to discuss any of these seriously we would have to have lengthy chats focusing heavily on the issues at hand.
The issue is still: Should Christopher burn forever?
IF he doesn't agree with God's Heaven then YES. Its the only other option.
Don't worry, I insult the entire human race equally. But I am hardest on people who claim to be Christians. But you should hear what I say about myself. I save the meanest comments for my own shortcomings.
Morag: If you seriously call yourself a Christian then maybe you should get a backbone and decide what's worth standing for. You are partially correct that all people can follow a basic morality. (Which Christians should believe comes from the word of God).A bit extreme, but backs up God's opinion:
Psalm 14:2-3
"...there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand,who seek after God...there is none who does good, not even one.
The truth is very insulting. Read your Bible sometime.
Speaking of reading your Bible:
Jerry why do you bother to say you follow Jesus at all? You don't trust the Gospel accounts or Revelation. Why trust any of the Bible at all?
Jerry quote:
"so lets not use revelation-it was a coded message to the christians of that time so the romans wouldnt understand what John was talking about"
That's hilarious. I take it you actually believe that? Wow. I (and millions of others) must be genius theologians. Revelation has been have understood for centuries. It's not that complicated. And I've never seen a decoder: have you?
It's okay if you call yourself a follower of Jesus: like the Mormon's, Jehovah Witnesses, Waco whacko's and numerous other Biblically illiterate people do. Just do NOT call yourself a Christian.
Sorry everyone. I do enjoy speaking my mind and sharing Biblical philosophy. If you are not interested in this topic then please stop discussing with me. My feelings won't be hurt.
I do enjoy a challenge however. And like I said: I collect questions that challenge the Bible and theology. I don't go on the internet to make friends...i'm not that lonely. :)
Rod,Your views on hell appear inconsistent to me.
Rod wrote: "The issue is still: Should Christopher burn forever?
IF he doesn't agree with God's Heaven then YES. Its the only other option."
Rod wrote: "I don't believe Hell is a torture. Just a very boring location with no luxuries. You don't get any of God's goodness - just your own."
As I burn forever do you think I will find it rather boring? I'd hate to be bored forever.
Rod wrote: "But you should hear what I say about myself. I save the meanest comments for my own shortcomings. "
We'd love for you to share.
Thanks for chatting Christopher. You ask great questions.I don't think i'm inconsistent. but I believe I understand your point. Torture YES or NO?
Is it God's intent that people be tortured in Hell? I don't think so. The fire is not meant for pain (from what I gather). Fire is used as a perimeter.
- there is no account in the Bible of people melting, or screaming (except one bad translation), or swimming in fire, or having their skin melt off. Fire doesn't seem to decay or consume the body.
(pleasant stuff to think about eh?)
Yes you will be bored forever. That is where the anguish and torment comes from. That is God's punishment. An eternity of reflection and regret - or possibly anger and self righteousness (and a nasty dose of pride).
But that's only if Christianity and the Bible is true? Big IF eh?
My own shortcomings: I know my sins, my pride, and what areas I need to work on daily.
Also my educational shortcomings. I can't read or study absolutely everything. So finding the truth in any subject is a never ending challenge.
So Chris: What would you not accept about God's Heaven? That's the BIG question that puts your soul on the line.
Is this like some sick fantasy for you? "Envisioning" hell and the afterlife, based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever? It's really disturbing, but I suppose in a thousand years humans will just laugh at such nonsense like we do now when when think of Hades and the Underworld. I'm sure those believers each had their own idea of what the afterlife was too. I think it's extremely disingenuous.
The bible is pretty clear on what Hell is, and it doesn't sound like a waiting room without magazines to me Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Rod wrote: "I don't think i'm inconsistent. but I believe I understand your point. Torture YES or NO?Is it God's intent that people be tortured in Hell? I don't think so. The fire is not meant for pain (from what I gather). Fire is used as a perimeter.
- there is no account in the Bible of people melting, or screaming (except one bad translation), or swimming in fire, or having their skin melt off. Fire doesn't seem to decay or consume the body.
(pleasant stuff to think about eh?)"
Well this is somewhat disappointing. I have posted this question in several threads and I thought I was finally debating someone who actually believed that I should literally burn forever (as in torture), which would be a bit more interesting. That is not to say that an eternity of boredom is something I would look forward to.
Rod wrote: "So Chris: What would you not accept about God's Heaven? That's the BIG question that puts your soul on the line.
I'm not sure I entirely understand the question. I suppose I would accept heaven if I did not have to submit to the whims of a terrible overlord who could read my mind. There would also have to be no hell full of bored people, else this would constantly demand my attention as it would anyone with basic human empathy.
Rod wrote: "Relax there Hazel (or don't, life goes on either way!)I didn't insult you and say you weren't good. I clearly said your Goodness was LIMITED. I guess I hit a sore spot. And I do thoroughly enjoy ..."
Wow! rude again...
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If you believe in hell do you believe it will consist of maximum torture for an infinite duration, or will it be something less severe than this?
What if the person strapped to the maximum torture device is a homosexual or an atheist? Would you press the button then?
As an atheist who faces this remote prospect I am curious how many people really believe I should burn forever.