The Shack
discussion
The Hitler button
"And you fell for it - just like Eve did - just like the Catholic church did - just like every false religion does"I'm confused about what I fell for? lol I'm not the gullible one here. I'm the one that's asking for evidence. I don't accept texts that claim divine authorship the exact same reason why you don't accept the Koran as being a true account of Allah and His creation.
Actually Will, I very much doubt your reasons for rejecting the koran are the same as a christians reasons. Your reasons don't include believing that your god is the only true god, and so everyone else is obviously deluded and/or heretical.
Rod wrote: "Does the Bible mention Matthew 27:51 clearly? Yes, then we have to believe it. Was it a vision or poetry by the author? No, then it must be a historical account.Do you agree with Matthew 27:54
"W..."
Thanks Rod, How do you reconcile the conflicting crucifixion accounts?
What conflicting crucifixion accounts. They sound pretty good to me.I am aware of the assumed contradictions. Just read everything carefully.
Rod wrote: "What conflicting crucifixion accounts. They sound pretty good to me.I am aware of the assumed contradictions. Just read everything carefully."
Then how do you reconcile them?
Which problems are you referring to exactly?
So if there is no God answer me this... What went bang?
Sara wrote: "So if there is no God answer me this... What went bang?"A truly original argument you bring to the table. Let me respond with a question of my own, if an invisible supernatural being created the Universe, what/who created that being? Let us, instead of putting an undefined "God" into the gaps of our knowledge, we try instead to fill it with facts.
Will wrote: "Sara wrote: "So if there is no God answer me this... What went bang?"A truly original argument you bring to the table. Let me respond with a question of my own, if an invisible supernatural being..."
So what then is the starting point? We never will know. Why not chose to have a little faith, believe that everything happens for a reason...that everyone has a purpose. Believe that we will see our loved ones again in a place do unimaginable bliss. That if you listen to that little voice in your head, you will live a moral life. Why keep looking for answers, putting all your trust in scientists and other people's research instead of closing your eyes, letting the Lord into your heart and FEEL something for yourself. Unless you are the one conducting all those experiments to find out why and find that fulfilling, I suggest you try it.
Yeah, I don't do things based off of "feelings" and wishful thinking. I'll take harsh reality over that any day. I don't need to wish upon an invisible being to have purpose, and I certainly would never believe that I see my loved ones in some other dimension after my brain dies just because it would be nice. You belittle THIS life and this world by believing that you will live forever and ever without end in some other plane of existence. I'd rather focus on the here and now and make this life easier for the thousand and thousands who are in pain right now, who haven't even been given the the opportunity to eat food every day. You would think if there was an all-powerful god out there that actually cared, it would at least provide food for the thousands of children who die every day of starvation.I suggest you try living in reality, where there are enough problems. Focus on this little planet instead of hoping for some other life somewhere else. It's sad and it accomplishes nothing.
Except you do have faith. You can't live without it. YOu have faith in other people's research other than your own, you have a faith that the person who told you that we breathe oxygen and it comes from the trees was telling the truth. Like you, I believe in some of those things but i also believe in the bible, believe in the healing, and believe that there is something greater than man. You have faith, I just choose to put mine in someone other than man. You believe there are children starving because you saw it off tv? I believe God holds those children and offers them something better than the suffering.
Sara wrote: "So what then is the starting point? We never will know."By the way, this might be true, but it is a very poor attitude to have. I'm sure it's been said hundreds of times in our history that something could not be known for which we now know. If we had donned this attitude, science would never have come about, and it would be very naive of you to belittle science, especially while you are enjoying electricity on a computer that is linked to a vast network across the entire planet, while at the same time enjoying much better medicine and health than even a couple decades ago, contributing to a longer life with less hardships for many people lucky enough to be living in a country with access to these great things provided by science.
"We will never know" is about on par with "God did it." It accomplishes nothing and stagnates the imagination and the pursuit of knowledge that is so important for helping out our fellow creatures.
You give credit to science but not God, to which I must say you are naive. I gave credit to both, I didn't belittle science but was only stating that you are arguing for nothing. I am no more wrong than you are right. Who deemed you the bearer of pessism and chose you to infect the world with it? If you so choose to believe that all is for nothing and God had no part in it, fine, but at the end of my life if I am wrong I have lost nothing and if I'm right you have lost everything.
"You give credit to science but not God, to which I must say you are naive."You give credit to God but not to Zeus, to which I must say you are naive. You see how this makes no sense?
"I am no more wrong than you are right."
Okay, but you are equally wrong as I am right :P Kidding, of course.
"Who deemed you the bearer of pessism and chose you to infect the world with it?"
What's pessimistic about my worldview? There is just as much beauty in mine, I just don't attribute it to an invisible being that plays peek-a-boo with humanity.
"If you so choose to believe that all is for nothing and God had no part in it, fine, but at the end of my life if I am wrong I have lost nothing and if I'm right you have lost everything."
Not true at all. If you are wrong that doesn't necessarily mean I am "right." There could very well be a god, but one which rewards skepticism, who punishes those who accept blindly on faith, and rewards those who seek truth and question any and ALL claims for which there is no evidence or proof. Pascal's wager is a very silly wager to make, because if there is a god, you have statistically chosen the wrong one.
God bless you and your travels ;)
I would prefer it if God would bless children like this instead of me:
Maybe, I don't know, the 6 million children under the age of 5 that die every year because this supposed god has not even provided them with enough food to live. A very sick god, to include all of this suffering in his divine plan.
And you are not a pessimist...
That is called reality, Sara. Nothing pessimistic or optimistic about a fact. Facts aren't biased towards feelings; they just are.
The things that man did were deplorable, but I don't think I could judge him like that. Only God does and as someone stated in one of the earlier responses God's Love is so powerful that living without it is Hell. I wouldnt be able to push that button. Its like that movie, The Box.
They are biased to whatever view point you have, or whatever news source you chose to read and believe, Will.
I don't understand what you are trying to say, Sara. Are you implying that these children aren't starving to death every day? Again, facts are not biased.
You don't know that it is fact. You have taken a picture and words and deemed it as fact. This isn't any more true than anything else. Honestly, Will, even Jesus knew when to walk away. I hope you find everything you are looking for. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
You cannot be serious. Please do the research, the numbers fluctuate a bit, but there is absolutely no question that thousands of children under the age of 5 die from starvation every day. How about a Christian charity's estimate at 16,000 a day? My point stands.http://www.bread.org/hunger/global/
or
http://www.poverty.com/
Are you so blinded by your praise of an invisible being that you don't even see the suffering around you? To brush this off as pessimism is revolting. My point is, there is lots of beauty in the world, but there is also a lot of needless suffering, especially innocent children who aren't even being provided with what they need to live. Whether it is God that isn't providing this, or whether it is merely reality we might disagree on, but there is no question that thousands upon thousands ARE starving to death every day. You cannot attribute the beauty to a supernatural entity, and then ignore the ugly. This was all in god's plan, who knew beforehand that all of this would happen, and yet somehow punishes us, not only in this life those who are less fortunate, but in the next as well for those that question?
Christopher wrote: "Suppose there is an afterlife and in this afterlife Hitler has been strapped to a device that will set him on fire for all of eternity. All that is needed to start this torture is the press of a bu..."If you believe in a loving, perfect God..then how could he/she/it be responsible for creating anything IMPERFECT? And if you believe that HE/SHE/IT is all that there is...then how can there be anything else??? (ie., Hell?) My spiritual beliefs are strong, but they run incongruent to much of what is expounded upon in traditional religion and the Bible...I do not believe any of us go to Hell...simply that we return to The Light and perfect Oneness...that being said, I DO subscribe in part to the laws of Karma and reincarnation...so while no one burns in hell...all actions, positive or negative...have a consequence that metes itself out over the course of "our" eternity...We could spend hours and several bottles of wine discussing...unfortunately, I have neither at the moment. :)
Sue wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Suppose there is an afterlife and in this afterlife Hitler has been strapped to a device that will set him on fire for all of eternity. All that is needed to start this torture ..."And as an added note...the only Hell I believe in is the one we create here, ourselves, by our negativity...just sayin'.
Will wrote: "That's the thing about the Bible, though. SO SO many different interpretations. Some of them, your very salvation depends upon how you interpret. And we interpret (for those who don't know Hebrew, ..."And add on top of that that so many people in this world accept the Bible as "the word" and live by it as such. But what bout all the other writings that were not included (by the men of the church back then)...the Lost Gospels of Mary, the Lost Gospels of Thomas, the Nag Hammadi, the Dead Sea Scrolls...all writings from that time about Jesus, his words and his deeds..and yet so many christians place their "convictions" on only one piece of evidence...The Bible...as a former FBI Agent, I sure hope a jury wouldn't place their conviction of me on one piece of evidence among many...I'd hope that they considered all of the evidence before they stepped out in Faith and made a good conscience decision for or against. I wish more traditional christians were willing to explore the other texts...
so true, Sue, though one small point, the council that rejected all those other books wasn't made up of the christian church, it was more the sort of official beginning of the roman catholic church, and the man in charge of the decisions was a pagan, Emperor Constantine was a follower of Sol Invictus until he converted to Christianity on his death bed, many years after the council of Nicaea, it was he who led the council that decided which books to include, which to exclude, and that created the rules for the church, such as priests having to be celibate. The reasons for what he did? It is thought that it was to control the expansion of this new religion, and to control what they believed. The celibacy thing certainly was to control the spread, if the priests had been allowed to breed, the religion would probably be even bigger than one third of the world population that it currently is.On an interesting side note, Christ was absorbed as a facet of Sol Invictus in that cult for a short while, and then he just replaced Sol Invictus, by Constantines decision.
Rod wrote: "Which problems are you referring to exactly?"Sorry real life...
Who carried the cross Jesus or Simon of Cyrene?
Was he crucified on the 3rd hr or 6th hour?
Was he stoic and accepting or reproachful and frightened?
What where his last words?
Matthew 27:46-50 - Jesus says: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Luke 23:46 - Jesus says: “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
John 19:30 - Jesus says: “It is finished.”?
The earthquake and zombie saints roaming Jerusalem mentioned by Matthew and absolutely no one else inside the gospels or other accounts, one would think it'd be noticed and written about...
Will wrote: "I would prefer it if God would bless children like this instead of me:that is so sweet god makes every one beautiful even when you thing not;]
"
Hazel quote:"Emperor Constantine was a follower of Sol Invictus until he converted to Christianity on his death bed, many years after the council of Nicaea, it was he who led the council that decided which books to include..."
Wow, have you read a history book Hazel? You might want to research abit more. Constantine had very little to do with anything religiously important. He was not interested in theology or truth. He was just a politician who borrowed from religion.
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Will, sorry about all the starving children. God gave us enough food, resources and medicine. But the world just doesn't feel like sharing. This is a reflection on people who don't obey the Bible.
This is a reflection on people who don't obey the Bible. Or a reflection on the bible's efficacy...
Rod wrote: "Will, sorry about all the starving children. God gave us enough food, resources and medicine. But the world just doesn't feel like sharing. This is a reflection on people who don't obey the Bible."You clearly have no grasp of the situation. The only role the bible plays in this is to exacerbate the situation. You see, Catholics, who obey the Bible, believe that the "sanctity of life" extends to sperm, and so they condemn the use of condoms in countries such as Africa. This escalates the hunger situation drastically.
These children are not provided with the food they need to live. Saying it's because other men aren't sharing does little to help your problem that this blame falls on your god, as your god set up this world and created a plan in which so many millions of children would die of starvation because of other men. His plan. He set up the rules. His fault.
But regardless of whether or not it's men or gods who are to blame because little children can't find food to eat, my argument extends to natural disasters as well, which man has no control over at all. I don't see how you can reconcile this. Religions used to reconcile this (and some still do) by claiming that natural disasters are punishments from god(s) (which implies that babies and children are somehow guilty of crimes worth punishing in this way while other babies are not). Do you espouse this disgusting ideology as well?
Sara wrote: "Except you do have faith. You can't live without it. YOu have faith in other people's research other than your own, you have a faith that the person who told you that we breathe oxygen and it comes from the trees was telling the truth. Like you, I believe in some of those things but i also believe in the bible, believe in the healing, and believe that there is something greater than man. You have faith, I just choose to put mine in someone other than man. You believe there are children starving because you saw it off tv? I believe God holds those children and offers them something better than the suffering."Sorry, I missed this post, but it needs to be addressed, because when you talk about "faith" here, you are talking about trust based on evidence and it is NOT the same this as religious faith, which is belief despite evidence, and often to the contrary.
Shanna challenge:Who carried the cross Jesus or Simon of Cyrene? Both...simple eh? It does not state a contradiction.
Was he crucified on the 3rd hr or 6th hour?
Could be both.
Quote:
" Mark, wrote in the Jewish times of day, while John wrote in the Roman times of day!" A possibility.
One time is not specific: John (about the 6th hour)
One time is: Mark (it was the 3rd hour when they crucified him.)
Although how long does it take to be carted away and crucified? more than an hour in total?
on the fun side:
Third hour--6am-9am
Sixth hour--9am-12pm
so were not dealing with modern time here. They didn't have digital watches and alarm clocks. So if it was officially 8:59 A.M. then scripture is quite accurate. The 3rd hour and almost the 6th. Simple eh?
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Was he stoic and accepting or reproachful and frightened? Both. It was a hard day for Jesus - yet eternally important.
What where his last words?
Matthew 27:46-50 - Jesus says: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Luke 23:46 - Jesus says: “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.”
John 19:30 - Jesus says: “It is finished.”?
Or do you mean what was his exact last phrase?
John does not state that his phrase was the absolute last. Matthew states that Jesus cries out one final expression after "My God, My God!" You can still speak after a last breath. Try it. :)
So Luke is most likely the winner. Easy eh?
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The earthquake and zombie saints roaming Jerusalem mentioned by Matthew and absolutely no one else inside the gospels or other accounts, one would think it'd be noticed and written about...
Did everyone run to Staples and grab a 4 color pen and fancy diary with Hello Kitty faces on the cover? NO.
Matthew 27:53
"The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the Saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went in to the holy city and appeared to many."
So how many is MANY? Did God ask anyone else to write this down? The question is why not? If nothing else has convinced anyone (over the last 3 years?!) then I doubt this last miracle would either.
Thanks for playing. :D
I guess if you wanted to smash the gospels together to create your own version of events, that's fine, but it's dishonest. They quite clearly tell several different versions.And I think as someone who has claimed to be familiar with the Bible you would have recognized the two clearly vast differences in personality between the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of John.
I'd say the act of the nailing and erecting the cross (the actual act of crucifixion) for the experienced roman soldiers would take, going on the youtube videos of the nutters who crucify each other in indonesia, 5 minutes 15 tops. So 3rd and 6th hours makes a difference wouldn't you think?If he was both then why don't both accounts document both, that is an assertion on your part...
Yes but not for long :). My point is, if the event happened, he either said one or the other, or if he said any or all or even a combination, why wasn't this written, one would think these last utterances of their messiah would be important enough to document correctly, so why three different versions?
Oh please staples, Hello Kitty, really...
Presumably if they "appeared unto many" someone might have found this startling enough to document, even if not specifically requested to do so.
I've been reading through this thread and I had to laugh. You are never going to win an argument about religon and faith or lack thereof. There are people who believe and those that don't. My only problem is when people try to impose their beliefs on other people.
This isn't about "winning" anything, and you can damn well bet that those here that believe in a literal interpretation of the bible are telling children that they will go to hell if they don't believe in some invisible being. If that isn't imposing beliefs on other people I don't know what is!
Well said, Will...well said...
Everyone imposes beliefs on others Will. You are doing it right now. Don't get all upset and righteous about it - such is life. :DWill quote:
"And I think as someone who has claimed to be familiar with the Bible you would have recognized the two clearly vast differences in personality between the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of John."
There's a reason we have 4 Gospels Will, 4 people bringing different experiences to the different cultures. They very much agree - yet God put some variety in there to annoy certain people like you.
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quote:
"The gospel of Mark was written to a Roman audience. If one verse could reflect the message of the book, it would be this: "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45). In the book of Mark Christ is presented as the ideal servant. Unlike Matthew, Mark does not give us the genealogy of Christ, for the genealogy of a servant is not important."
Quote:
"The whole purpose of the gospel of John was to prove the Deity of Jesus Christ. Instead of giving the genealogy of Christ, John goes back into eternity to tell us that, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:1-4)."
If Jesus is the Truth - then we had better be sharing it.
Shanna quote:"why wasn't this written, one would think these last utterances of their messiah would be important enough to document correctly, so why three different versions?"
Why do you assume God has to do things YOUR way? There's a reason we have 4 Gospel accounts from different perspectives: It makes us think.
It also shows us that the Bible hasn't been altered or FIXED to remove these discrepancies - they are still there 1900 years later.
These version do not contradict each other: They only show you how different cultures witnessed and prioritized these events.
Are the order of Jesus' last words important? Not really. But the phrases are. And God gave them to us. (Isn't HE nice!)
the reason we have 4 gospel accounts is because they were chosen from by a pagan roman emporer as the ones most likely to keep the newly budding christian religion in check and under the thumb. Council of Nicaea 325AD. This is basic history. They chose the ones written well after the supposed events rather than any of the numerous ones written earlier. could it be because by the time they got to that point, the story of a rebel had turned into the story of a messiah. Interestingly, the Jewish people, and jesus was a jew, and it was the jews waiting for a messiah, tell us that there were numerous people wandering around at the time claiming to be the messiah, and none, jesus included, have been accepted as fulfilling their prophecies.As for your last sentence, first you have to provide proof that there is a god, and its the one from the bible, before you can make claims over what it may or may not have done, and why.
You still going on about that Hazel? OR was that someone else? Hazel quote:
" by a pagan roman emporer as the ones most likely to keep the newly budding christian religion in check and under the thumb."
Have you read the Bible Hazel? It isn't very likely to keep anyone in check. It tells us to stand for the truth at all costs. It also tells us to spread the Gospel to the whole world and not to sit around listening to Emperors.
The council of Nicaea was about Jesus deity - AND NOT ABOUT THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE. Even Wiki agrees with me - as do numerous textbooks and Historical church writings. It may of came up in conversation but was not the purpose of the council.
God does not need me to prove his existence to you: I think he'd rather I invest my time on something else. But I do enjoy the challenge. :D
"Everyone imposes beliefs on others Will. You are doing it right now. Don't get all upset and righteous about it - such is life. :D"If you don't see the difference between telling a little child that they will go to hell if they don't believe in what you believe, and me telling people that this is wrong, then there is no hope for you.
And you are seriously downplaying how much the accounts of Jesus' life differs from gospel to gospel. You are merely attempting to smash them together and make your own gospel. You also seem to think that the bible has not changed much in 2000+ years, but do you not remember when the Dead Sea scrolls were found? Did you know that they found the accounts of Exodus and Samuel to be vastly different than the accounts we have today, for instance?
We also KNOW that certain parts of the gospels were added. The attempted stoning of the adulteress did not appear in any of the earlier manuscripts, it appeared in the texts much later. The last bit of Mark was also added, with the snake handling and the speaking in tongues, being able to drink poison, heal people, and perform exorcisms... that bit.
Will wrote: "This isn't about "winning" anything, and you can damn well bet that those here that believe in a literal interpretation of the bible are telling children that they will go to hell if they don't bel..."My point was that you are not going to convince someone who is a fanatic about their faith that you are right and they are wrong. Been there done that. As someone who is a "recovering" Catholic, I know all too well how as children you are taught to believe that if you don't believe in a certain way,you will go to hell.
Rod wrote: "You still going on about that Hazel? OR was that someone else? Hazel quote:
" by a pagan roman emporer as the ones most likely to keep the newly budding christian religion in check and under the ..."
Thankyou for that correction, and yes, I went and double checked, and you're right, the canon was not decided at the council.
However, I still maintain that it is disingenuous to make claims about god and what he has and hasn't done until there is proof that such a being exists. You are also right that you don't have to provide that proof... of course, that is until you start making claims about god and what he has and hasn't done, everything you say in regards to god, what he has done, what he hasn't done, and what he wants people to do can be ignored until there is proof that god exists.
And frankly,if someone proved the god of the bible existed, I still wouldn't worship it, as the way its put in the bible means that I am a better person than.. well pretty much everyone, god included, depicted therein.
And if you're so into spreading the truth, maybe you should make sure what you know is true first.. the first step, prove that god exists, if you can't, then you can't claim to be making use of the truth. believe what you want, but don't declare it as truth until you can prove it to be such by providing evidence that supports it to a degree that makes it the most likely answer to lifes questions.
Thanks Will. It's a fun challenge chatting with you. Will quote:
" Did you know that they found the accounts of Exodus and Samuel to be vastly different than the accounts we have today, for instance?"
I am not aware of this. I am aware that the Dead Sea scrolls contain biblical and non-biblical writings. Even the Catholic Bible contains the Apocrypha for literary purposes (but Catholics mostly agree these books are not historically accurate.)
Just cause writings exist - do not make them truth.
I am very aware of the end of Mark and the Stoning incident. Literature coming and going does not make something true or false. How do these things compare to the rest of the Bible? Now that's interesting.
The Gospels are amazing. Too bad your heart and mind just can't see it. :D
Awesome Hazel. You said exactly what I wanted to hear from you...Hazel quote:
" I still wouldn't worship it, as the way its put in the bible means that I am a better person than.. well pretty much everyone, god included, depicted therein."
Now go read the Bible - slowly and carefully. You might be shocked! But I doubt it.
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No, I would not want to press the button. If that's what this book is about, I don't want to read it either."
No that is actually nothing to do with the book. The book is about a father searching for answers after his daughter is kidnapped and murdered.