The History Book Club discussion
THE FIRST WORLD WAR
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1. HF - ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT - CHAPTER ONE (1 - 18) (05/02/11 - 05/08/11) ~ No spoilers, please
I am excited to begin this discussion on All Quiet on the Western Front. Each week I will overview the current week's reading to help remind everyone where we are in the book. We need to be careful to avoid spoilers for those who are reading the book for the first time. Anyone who has read the book before needs to be careful to not mention events that occur later in the book. We will have a Book as a Whole thread set up where we can discuss issues from any portion of the book. In addition, spoilers are allowed in the Glossary thread.Book as a Whole thread: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Glossary thread: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Keep in mind that this book was originally written in German. We will be reading the English translation by A. H. Wheen. I would be very interested to hear from those of you who are reading a different transation, or have read it in the original German. We've already seen some good discussion in the Introduction thread about word choices for the title in English versus German.
I will be using page numbers from my copy (ISBN 0-449-21394-3). If any of you have dificulties using my page numbers in your copy, let me know and we'll figure something out.
And so we begin.
Chapter 1: pages 1-18Remarque jumps us right into the war with Paul Baumer. He and the rest of the Second Company have just returned from the front, where they had almost 50% casualties in the last day. Consequently, the surviving 80 men get to enjoy the rations and provisions alotted to the full 150. Baumer tells us how he and his classmates originally joined up at the age of 18, and they are 19 now. Those who are still alive, that is. He tells us of the "wonderfully care-free hours" (page 9) sitting on the latrine while reading mail and sharing gossip. Baumer and his buddies go to visit Kemmerich in the hospital. Kemmerich has lost his foot to amputation and they can all see that he will die soon. Muller tries to persuade Kemmerich to give him his nice boots. After all, Kemmerich can't use them with only one foot, and once Kemmerich dies someone else will steal them anyway. Baumer spends a few cigarettes to bribe an orderly to give Kemmerich some morphine to ease his pain.
I am amazed at how well Remarque describes life as a WWI soldier. Even just in this first chapter we see horrors of war, and yet these young men see so much of it that they become casual about death and dismemberment. Life becomes focused on the practical. They live day-to-day, because they really never know. We really could end the book now, after just one chapter, and have learned a whole lot about war.
Practical, indeed, I liked this sentence: "Katczinsky is right when he says it would not be such a bad war if only one could get a little more sleep." (p. 8 from my Wheen edition).
Mod
Thanks, Bentley.Agreed, Bryan. I like that line a lot. I remember how appropriate it seemed when I read the book as a teenager: "High School would not be so bad if only one could get a little more sleep." And now I hear myself saying: "Parenthood would not be so bad if only one could get a little more sleep." Difference being, of course, that war is a lot more horrible than either High School or parenthood. Plus, there are a lot more positives about school and family.
I found it interesting that this chapter is basically about a good day. They have survived, when so many did not. They are not maimed, when so many are. They have full stomachs for once, enough extra cigarettes to even buy a friend some morphine, time to enjoy the latrine and the beauties of nature.
And yet this chapter about a good day seems to hit harder than beginning with a chapter where the characters are in the trenches with death.
So true, and yet it is mixed in with death: death of the kid who did not want to sign up, etc. They can escape, but it still remains in the back of their mind thinking about their dead friends.
Elizabeth S wrote: "(...)Keep in mind that this book was originally written in German. We will be reading the English translation by A. H. Wheen. I would be very interested to hear from those of you who are reading a different transation, or have read it in the original German. We've already seen some good discussion in the Introduction thread about word choices for the title in English versus German...."Thanks, Elizabeth.
For me it is very interesting to compare the two texts, German and English. In the technical terms, there is probably little difference. The stew-pot is a Gulaschkanone, a word combination of goulash and guns, and the cook has no carroty head, I think there are red hair meant, but a tomato head, a red face.
I think the important point: "... little Albert Kropp, the clearest thinker among us and therefore only a lance-corporal", a clear thinker has no chances in the Army.
Mod
Agreed, Bryan. I like that line a lot. I remember how appropriate it seemed when I read the book as a teenager: "High School would not be so bad if only one could get a little m..."
Very true Elizabeth S - everything is relative in what constitutes a good day. And sleep is as important to your well being as what you eat and drink so with all thinks it seems linked whether being a soldier, a teenager, a parent or whatever your stage in life is.
In a way it reminds me of this poem by Robert Frost which I always loved: (in this case the protagonist has miles to go before he sleeps)
Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening
Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.
My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.
He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Wow, thanks for sharing that poem, Bentley. I've read it many times before in various settings, but that sleep connection didn't occur to me. Very appropriate reference. You know life has not been good to you when you are primarily focused on basic human needs such as food, shelter, and sleep. Perhaps that is part of why this first chapter is so striking, even though the men have an abundance (for once) of these essential items, the very celebration of that abundance emphasizes the days, weeks, and months of lack.
Baseni wrote: "...For me it is very interesting to compare the two texts, German and English. In the technical terms, there is probably little difference. The stew-pot is a Gulaschkanone, a word combination of goulash and guns, and the cook has no carroty head, I think there are red hair meant, but a tomato head, a red face.I think the important point: "... little Albert Kropp, the clearest thinker among us and therefore only a lance-corporal", a clear thinker has no chances in the Army. "
Thanks for the info on the original German. I know so little about languages, but I find this stuff so fascinating. So, is "stew-pot" an accurate translation for Gulaschkanone? Why does goulash and guns turn into a stew-pot? It is interesting to hear that the cook's red might refer more to his head/face than his hair.
I think one sign of a good writer is when they can use lines (such as the one you picked about Albert Kropp the clear-thinker) that are multidimensional. By that, I mean the lines not only convey information, they also convey nuances, feel, and atmosphere. And they do it so naturally. The line about Kropp not only tells us what he is like, it also tells us what the army is like, and even conveys the practical cynicism of Baumer. There is a lot to get from that one little line.
Mod
You know life has not ..."
Yes, very true Elizabeth and I like your second paragraph explanation.
What do you all think of Kantorek, the teacher who "encouraged" Baumer and his friends to join up? What do you think Baumer thinks of him?It is hard for me to judge Kantorek directly given only the information from this chapter. He could be a sincere & patriotic man, he could be foolish and naive, he could be pompous and idealistic, he could be intentionally manipulative and cunning. Perhaps some of all of those.
I think at times Baumer feels betrayed by Kantorek, and maybe even everyone at home. On page 18 he says, "And that is why they let us down so badly." But other times he seems to take it as just another one of those things that life deals out. The practical acceptance of those who daily face things so horrible that they have to retreat into a casual attitutde.
I understand Baumer's attitude of being very upset and betrayed by Kantorek for not "walking the walk." Sorry, I'm going to use a a pop culture reference: the 1997 movie Starship Troopers. There is a scene in the movie that the teacher talks about the glory of citizenship but at a price: enlisting. And the teacher did that (he lost an arm). This probably garners more respect from his pupils than Kantorek.
I don't think he feels let down by Kantorek in particular as much as by society as a whole. I am reading a different edition from 1958. In mine, this quote is from page 16. "Naturally we couldn't blame Kantorek for this. Where would the world be in one brought every man to book? There were thousands of Kantoreks, all of whom were convinced that they were acting for the best - in a way that cost them nothing."It is interesting to me that the group still keeps in contact with Kantorek. Perhaps through their letters, he has become more knowledgeable about the realities of war instead of the romantic idea. Or perhaps, once in a while it is nice for them to hear from someone who is telling them that they are doing the right thing.
Bryan wrote: "I understand Baumer's attitude of being very upset and betrayed by Kantorek for not "walking the walk." Sorry, I'm going to use a a pop culture reference: the 1997 movie Starship Troopers. Ther..."
I haven't seen Starship Troopers, but your description of that scene definitely matches. There is a big difference between encouraging others to make the same sacrifices you yourself have made versus encouraging others to make sacrifices you don't make. The Starship Troopers guy sounds like the first, and Kantorek sounds like the second.
What is harder to judge is situations where you encourage people to make sacrifices that you CAN'T make. Maybe a grandma encouraging a young man to go to war. She's too old, she can't be a soldier, so she isn't really being hypocritical. But at the same time, she doesn't really know what she is asking of the young man because she hasn't experienced it.
I think that is one of Baumer's issues. Not just that some of the recruiters are hypocrites, but that the families and friends don't really know what is being asked of the soldiers.
Sarah wrote: "I don't think he feels let down by Kantorek in particular as much as by society as a whole. I am reading a different edition from 1958. In mine, this quote is from page 16. "Naturally we couldn'..."Good catch, Sarah. I think he kinda sees Kantorek as a specific example of society's attitude. It is someone he can actually give a name to, rather than the vague society-as-a-whole. And yet he doesn't use Kantorek as a scape-goat, which many in his situation would do. I think that is a quality that we can admire in Baumer, and it helps us be more sympathetic to him.
That is an interesting observation about keeping in contact with Kantorek. To some extent it was also a connection back to normal life for the soldiers.
By the way, we may have the same translation, because I found what you quoted and it was word-for-word the same in my copy. Only I was on page 12. I wonder if we'll end up being 4 pages off throughout the book.
Kantorek is a devout authoritarian teachers. He is the perfect example of a Prussian official. The service to his country means to him very much. Fatherland and Emperor are one. He spreads but empty words. In physical education, he persuaded the students to volunteer for the army reported. Joseph Behm does not want to volunteer. The group dynamics is stronger. Nobody wants to be a coward. Even his parents Behm but would call it that.I see the correspondence between him and the soldiers on one side only. He writes from the home, but the soldiers not to him.
For submission to the State (in German: "Obrigkeitshörigkeit") in Germany there is one example. It is the "Hauptmann (captain) of Köpenick". A cobbler, which attracts a captain's uniform and the town hall of Köpenick, now a suburb of Berlin, occupied, and is stealing the city treasury.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Voigt
Elizabeth S wrote: "Thanks for the info on the original German. I know so little about languages, but I find this stuff so fascinating. So, is "stew-pot" an accurate translation for Gulaschkanone? Why does goulash and guns turn into a stew-pot? (...) ..."The Gulaschkanone is a fixed word in the German language. Old guns were pulled by horses. In addition there was a so-called Limber, this was at the gun attached. For field kitchens exchanged the gun against a mobile stove. As the food of the soldiers consisted mostly of a stew, it was called goulash gun.
If you visit Germany today, so you can at fairs, street festivals, etc. see signs bearing the words "Essen aus der Gulaschkanone" (food from the field kitchen).
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Bundesarchiv_Bild_201-MA34-370-91-21,_Hayingen,_Soldaten_an_Feldk%C3%BCche.jpg&filetimestamp=20081204184845
This is a terrific discussion. I better finish my Ayn Rand tome quickly so I can start on this book.
Wow, Baseni. What interesting links. That Voigt guy had real cheek. He's the proverbial bad-guy-that-you-cheer-for. I can see why people still tell his story and write plays about him, etc.And the picture of the field kitchen was really helpful. I'm not very good a visualizing things I read about in books, so pictures are really nice.
And thanks for the German lessons, keep 'em coming. I really should know more German than I do, since both my grandfather and my husband were born there.
Aloha wrote: "This is a terrific discussion. I better finish my Ayn Rand tome quickly so I can start on this book."Oh, definitely. I hope your tome doesn't take too long. All Quiet can be a fairly quick read. What takes the time, and the fun part, is discussing the issues that are brought up. Feel free to catch-up whenever you can!
To all,We have a Book As A Whole thread going now, where people can discuss any portion of the book. If you have read the book before, whether or not you are rereading it with us, feel free to go there to discuss. It is also a good place to check if you aren't sure if something is a spoiler for a given weekly thread.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Elizabeth S wrote: "Wow, Baseni. What interesting links. That Voigt guy had real cheek. He's the proverbial bad-guy-that-you-cheer-for. I can see why people still tell his story and write plays about him, etc.An..."
Thank you very much, but it is not my intention, to transform the book review in a German course .
In the chapter there is an almost surreal situation. Three soldiers are sitting on a green meadow. Butterflies flying around them. Your chairs are portable latrines. They play Skat. Skat is a typical German card game. There must be three players. In the background you hear the guns roar. But they are not louder than the hum of the bees. If a round is played with a Null Ouvert (zero ouvert), a junk round is loaded. Zero Ouvert means the winner of the round may make no a trick. So he has won no cards. This means that the winner has empty hands.
It is almost a description of how it will be after the war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skat_(card_game)
Baseni wrote: "Thank you very much, but it is not my intention, to transform the book review in a German course. ... "Of course I'm not expecting you to teach us German. But I do want you to know that what you share about the pre-translated book and your insights are much appreciated.
Thanks for the info on Skat, and the link. It sounds like a fun game, but more fun to learn from someone who knows how to play it versus learning from a rule-book. (I wonder if anyone in my family knows how? I'll have to ask around.)
And great insight into how the game relates to the war. The more I reread the book and hear what others have to say about it, the more I appreciate Remarque's layers of meaning. He didn't just sit down and write what it was like in war. The whole tone of his book matches the war, there is depth to even trivial events.
The whole discussion about latrines, for example. It isn't done in a bawdy or vulgar way, but it isn't delicately handled either. The mere discussion of the subject points out how the very basics in life, the basics most people take for granted, are not simple or guaranteed in war.
Elizabeth S wrote: "What do you all think of Kantorek, the teacher who "encouraged" Baumer and his friends to join up? What do you think Baumer thinks of him?It is hard for me to judge Kantorek directly given only ..."
I also believe Kantorek is meant to represent society as a whole. That what is trying to be said is that society's ideologies were responsible for all the young men facing the harsh realities of war. For example, the young man Josef Behm hesitated when signing up to go to war but then later fell in line due to pressure, Erich Maria Remarque states this about society...
In paragraph 3, pg. 11,
"And perhaps more of us thought as he did, but no one could very well stand out, because at that time even one's parents were ready with the word "coward"; no one had the vaguest idea what we were in for."
Bryan wrote: "I understand Baumer's attitude of being very upset and betrayed by Kantorek for not "walking the walk." Sorry, I'm going to use a a pop culture reference: the 1997 movie Starship Troopers. Ther..."
Bryan,
I love the reference to Starship Troopers. You have a point and it made me think a lot. Many soldier family members I have seem to respect the men that have walked in their shoes more. Not generalizing as that may not be how every soldier feels....
Also in paragraph 3, pg 11, there is this quote that seems to back the certain feeling that those that have actually faced war and suffered have a different feeling about it than those that just have an idea of it,
"The wisest men were just the poor and simple people. They knew the war to be a misfortune, whereas people who were better off were beside themselves with joy, though they should have been much better able to judge what the consequences would be" (pg.11)
Not saying that those on the front lines of the war are simple-minded- but that back in the day the poor were often times put in more harms way--thus they had more knowledge experience on how horrible war could be vs. a man that did not get to see/feel war. Thus perhaps those on the front lines would respect a man more that had real war experience and so maybe he is blaming Kantorek?
All in all, I guess the soldiers are just fed up with people that think they know it, lecture about it, have opinions about them and how they should conduct themselves, when those people have never lived through actual war.So it's a little bit of both. Kantorek is an example of a lot people they blame or find ignorant.
lol, thanks Autumn, it sometimes a good thing to have all this pop culture references in my head. They come in useful from time to time ;-)
Bryan wrote: "lol, thanks Autumn, it sometimes a good thing to have all this pop culture references in my head. They come in useful from time to time ;-)"Indeed, pop culture sometimes saves the day. After all, what would be a better way to be on the same page than to refer to something popular enough for everyone to know it?
Autumn wrote: "All in all, I guess the soldiers are just fed up with people that think they know it, lecture about it, have opinions about them and how they should conduct themselves, when those people have never..."Great comments, Autumn. I think you are right that Kantorek is used to represent society back home. In a way, he is the face for society as a whole, the representative that we can use as a scape-goat. Everyone-back-home is so vague, but someone with a name and face is someone at whom you can direct your feelings.
It is interesting to me that the soldiers resent being somewhat tricked into enlisting and are fed up with the complacency back home, yet they still continue to fight for those very people. It is an interesting middle ground between idealistic patriotism (where the people at home are grateful and innocent) and angry blaming (where you are so mad at the people back home that you'd rather fight them than the official enemy).
I found it interesting that with all that was going on around these young people; fighting, war, death, dismemberment, conflicting political views about the war and such, that the young soldiers were meeting their own personal needs for survival. On the Front Line ie getting/worrying about sleep & back from the line of fire where they obtained more than enough food, plenty of cigarettes, the boots, a place to use the bathroom (and not worrying about who might see them going to the bathroom), relaxation (playing cards). In essence living out Maslow's hierarchy of needs. What a great chapter & discussion here on this thread.
Good thoughts, Brian. And even with meeting their personal needs, we see some interesting extremes. They have an abundance of food and cigs, for once, because of the high casualty rate on the last day at the front. But their cook has been one of the more hesitant to approach the front line, so their unit has often received food at the front "too late and cold" (page 5), especially compared with other units. It's that whole feast-or-famine thing.
The description of the teacher showing his subservience to the state. This is the typical behavior of the official at that time. There were the words "blood and honor" for the soldiers. There were only words of war supporters at home. The man's belt buckle bore the inscription: "Gott mit uns" (meaning God with us). Everybody believed in a just cause. It is the reality of the war showed that there were only empty words.In an article I had a translation error. I wrote: "For submission to the State (in German: "Obrigkeitshörigkeit") in Germany there is one example." I did not mean submission but submissiveness. I'm sorry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns
Nice link on the belt buckle. I like seeing things. Thanks for clarifying your earlier comment, but no need to apologize. You are doing great.
I finished All Quiet on the Western Front. It was a quick read and easy to get into. What touched me was how well Remarque portrayed the fact that these were normal young men, brothers, nephews, who were forced to be a part of the mechanism of war, not as blood-thirsty soldiers.The discussion is already far in. Elizabeth and Bentley, this is a terrific discussion. I'll have to finish reading the rest of the discussions. I'm in the middle of trying to write reviews of the Ayn Rand books I've read, so I'm distracted from this right now.
Mod
I will when I'm ready to talk. Thanks, Bentley.
Aloha wrote: "I finished All Quiet on the Western Front. It was a quick read and easy to get into. What touched me was how well Remarque portrayed the fact that these were normal young men, broth..."I like how you said you were "touched" by the book. It is a very touching book. You aren't really the same after you read it. I look forward to more of your comments when you have the time and are ready. Until then, I hope you enjoy following the discussions.
Also, Aloha, when you mention an author, please be sure to provide the picture and link:
Ayn RandThanks!
Sure, Elizabeth. I like it when a poster provides a link to a book so I can click on it if I'm curious about it. I never thought about a link to an author. Thanks.
Forgot what I wanted to say here...but I just wanted to see if I can post things b/c a couple days ago it wasn't letting me.
Good to know it is working again, Autumn. I wonder what happened.
It was probably my computer...or the website wasn't working for me at that time. I didn't try very long just a couple times and then moved on to Chapter 2 :) Thank you for everything.
It is also interesting that the young men adapt seemingly so quietly to the changes in their lives. Of course they do this as a group, young men all together, which works even today in training and deploying armies.Also I think that faulting the teacher is not wrong but German glory was to be served and the costs that would be levied in WWI were not necessarily understood yet.
I think, my memory says, the grimness of what I think was the first major war with modern machine guns made the war different than the wars older people may have known of.
Elizabeth S wrote: "Autumn wrote: "All in all, I guess the soldiers are just fed up with people that think they know it, lecture about it, have opinions about them and how they should conduct themselves, when those pe..."Interesting discussion so far. My impression at the half-way mark is that the soldiers aren't fighting for anything related their homeland. There's been no political discourse in the book concerning the objectives of the war, why it started, etc. Instead, my thought is that the men are fighting the war for their own survival. It's kill or be killed so to speak. Interesting, how this mindset ties in with the survivor's guilt that subtlety comes out in parts of the story.
Vince wrote: "It is also interesting that the young men adapt seemingly so quietly to the changes in their lives. Of course they do this as a group, young men all together, which works even today in training an..."Vince, I agree with your point that this type of war and the scale of it was new to the world. I did find it interesting, though, with all of the advancements that bayonets were still used and that hand-to-hand combat was still a major part of the fighting. Even after I have read much about this topic, it still amazes me that anyone could survive at all in this context.
Sera wrote: "Vince wrote: "It is also interesting that the young men adapt seemingly so quietly to the changes in their lives. Of course they do this as a group, young men all together, which works even today ..."Sera - bayonets are still used today - ten to 20" of steel extended at the end of a stick, or rifle, is both effective as a threat and a weapon.
Bayonets and hand to hand combat were in common usage in WWII also (the Japanese very noteably) -
When politicans and military men today say "boots on the ground" the implication is that they are attached to rifles (with bayonet optional)
just some comments
Vince wrote: "It is also interesting that the young men adapt seemingly so quietly to the changes in their lives. Of course they do this as a group, young men all together, which works even today in training an..."Great points, Vince. They seem to somehow just take every day as it comes. As you said, it helps that they are comrades. I think there are some survival-of-the-fittest issues as well. Those who can't adapt are those most likely to get sick and die.
Sera wrote: "Interesting discussion so far. My impression at the half-way mark is that the soldiers aren't fighting for anything related their homeland...."We'll have to talk more about this as we get further into the book. It is interesting that even though the young men signed up because of patriotic speeches by their teacher, that patriotism doesn't seem to have sunk deeply enough to survive the horrors of war.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II (other topics)Delivered from Evil: The Saga of World War Two (other topics)
The First World War (other topics)
All Quiet on the Western Front (other topics)
All Quiet on the Western Front (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Iris Chang (other topics)Robert Leckie (other topics)
John Keegan (other topics)
Ayn Rand (other topics)
Erich Maria Remarque (other topics)
More...
Elizabeth S (who is a great moderator) will be kicking this book discussion off today; and I know she will lead a terrific discussion.
So I hope you have your books out and ready to go. This is a May/June/July discussion so everybody has plenty of time to read this selection.
This week's assigned reading is as follows for Week One:
Week 1, May 2-8: Chapter One (pages 1-18)
I know that everyone can muster the first 18 pages this week in order to get started! This, I know, will prove to be a great discussion of World War I, different perspectives on a soldier who is portrayed to actually have served in the German army as well as the effects of war and suffering and despair on all sides.
This is the eighth historical fiction group selected book.
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.
This book will be kicked off today May 2nd.
We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle or even Audible.
This thread is open for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.
Welcome,
~Bentley
Here is a link to the introductory thread:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Here is a link to the Table of Contents and Syllabus:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Here is the link to the glossary which is a spoiler thread so beware if you do not like spoilers of any kind - but the links added here will be very useful in understanding the personages discussed, their background, the events and the battles, or the environment itself, etc.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...
Here is a link to the Military History folder which deals with World War I: (there is a lot here)
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/group_...
Thank you for joining Elizabeth and the History Book Club on this journey.
You are very welcome here.
Bentley