1. HF - ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT - CHAPTER ONE (1 - 18) (05/02/11 - 05/08/11) ~ No spoilers, please

[Elizabeth S]

Thanks, Vince, for your info about bayonets and war technology. Even as mankind finds new was to kill each other, we still use the old ways too. Some ways are abandoned, I guess. We don't see many cavalry charges with swords anymore.

[Sera]

Interesting points, Vince. I guess adding a blade to the end of a tool would be effective, especially from a reach perspective ;)

[Baseni]

Hi, the technology had certainly made ​​great progress. The doctrine of war and the inner attitudes of the people were still stopped in the 19 Century. The victims were meaningless in the assaults already in Charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimean War 1854. It's the same idea of heroism. It is also the fact that the German people were convinced of the legality of the war.

[Elizabeth S]

Baseni wrote: "Hi, the technology had certainly made ​​great progress. The doctrine of war and the inner attitudes of the people were still stopped in the 19 Century. The victims were meaningless in the assaults already in Charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimean War 1854. It's the same idea of heroism. It is also the fact that the German people were convinced of the legality of the war. "

Good points, Baseni. Your last sentence is giving me a lot to think about. Why do you think the people were so convinced at the time? After WWI, it seems that Hitler had to re-fan the flames somewhat.

[Baseni]

Elizabeth S wrote: "Good points, Baseni. Your last sentence is giving me a lot to think about. Why do you think the people were so convinced at the time? After WWI, it seems that Hitler had to re-fan the flames somewhat...."

The Germans then had a different understanding of the war. The war was almost a necessary sequence of history. They had not taken, for example, any lessons from the carnage of the Civil War. The war was for the military. The people just watched. No one despise the opponent. This came later. 1916, called to the English royal house in Windsor. The Battenberg were Mountbatten.
1916, when the book begins, the German people slowly suspects that here was another war.
Hitler was the result of the Versailles peace treaty. He built on that, as a perceived unfair contract, and the economic situation in Germany.

[Baseni]

In Germany after WWI developed the "Dolchstoßlegende" so-called "stab-in-the-back-legend". It was the time of the Weimar Republic. The "Dolchstoßlegende" said that the German army was undefeated in the field, but was betrayed by treachery at home. With the traitors, the Communists and Social Democrats were meant. The Social Democrats formed the government in the Weimar period. Thus were the leaders traitors. Military, loyalty to the Emperor and nationalists held this view. Much of the German population shared this opinion. This was fertile ground for the rise of the Nazis.

[Elizabeth S]

Baseni wrote: "The Germans then had a different understanding of the war. The war was almost a necessary sequence of history. They had not taken, for example, any lessons from the carnage of the Civil War. The war was for the military. The people just watched. No one despise the opponent. This came later. "

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. The part that hits me the most is, "No one despise the opponent. This came later." It seems that in today's society we think people either hate their enemies or learn to love them. But you can also just not think about it and just fight them because that is your job.

How you describe the military reminds me of the Roman soldiers--it was their job, their career, what they did.

WWI really set Europe up for WWII, didn't it. I think we'll always wonder how much of a difference it would have made if WWI were solved in a different way.

[Baseni]

What would have happened if ...? I would think, President Wilson was resolute with his proposal for a peace treaty, Germany would have developed differently. France only wanted revenge. Britain wanted Germany to lose as a strong opponent. Without America's intervention, the war probably would have ended in a draw in 1918. The French troops were faced with a mutiny, the British troops no longer wanted to die in the mud of the Western Front. England had increased her colonial empire and had the power on the seas.
Wilson's plan (The Fourteen Points) called for reparations less and less loss of territory. France has prevented this. America had pointed out no further interest in Europe. I do not think the Empire would have survived. The time for the German, Russian and Austrian emperors had expired. The same applies to the Ottoman Empire. Probably there would have been in Germany a constitutional monarchy. The time for a republic was not yet come.
The people would have been happy that the war is over and would have mourned the victims. But probably the WWII would have been avoided.

[Elizabeth S]

Those "what if" questions are hard to answer. You have some good thoughts, Baseni. In Keegan's The First World War, one of his points is that the losers of WWI needed a way to mourn. Without a way to mourn, they were more susceptible to Hitler.

by John Keegan

[Baseni]

Elizabeth S wrote: "Those "what if" questions are hard to answer. You have some good thoughts, Baseni. In Keegan's The First World War, one of his points is that the losers of WWI needed a way to mourn. Without a w..."

The Mourning is an important factor. You must see the situation in Germany after WWI. Germany saw itself not as a warmonger. The peace treaty was perceived as unfair. The people wondered what brought the large number of war victims? Why are we being punished? Have we not fought for a just cause? The entire social order was gone. People like the teachers had no more social home. All what they stood for and lived was destroyed. Although there was a new government, but this was despised by them. There was a social upheaval in Germany without direct future. Only the radical parties, the Communists and the Nazis were a way. The Communists, the Soviet way, and the Nazis the way to the supposedly old size.

[Elizabeth S]

Definitely. That is part of why I like to refer to the Nazis as the bad-guys of WWII, rather than the Germans.

[Vincent]

Elizabeth S wrote: "Definitely. That is part of why I like to refer to the Nazis as the bad-guys of WWII, rather than the Germans."

Hi Elizabeth
If you read or have read The Rape of Nanking

Iris Chang

you might not find that the Germans were alone as bad guys.

An interesting outlook is expressed in the title of
"Delivered from Evil"

Robert Leckie

Leckie, the author of thta book, was one of the real men followed in the HBO documentary The Pacific

[Elizabeth S]

No, I haven't read either of those books, Vince, but I have read enough other books that I know what you mean about the Nazis weren't alone as bad-guys. I guess the point really is that it isn't a nationality (whether Germans or any other) that is bad.

We're really getting into some serious discussions here. Which I think is part of Remarque hoped for when he wrote All Quiet.

[Baseni]

Elizabeth S wrote: "No, I haven't read either of those books, Vince, but I have read enough other books that I know what you mean about the Nazis weren't alone as bad-guys. I guess the point really is that it isn't a..."

In the discussion about the post-war economic conditions play a major role. From the end of the war until November 15th 1923 was a hyperinflation. In 1914 1 U.S.$ 4.20 gold mark was worth. On November 15th 1923, the dollar was worth 4.200.000.000.000 M.
My grandfather was a mechanic and had his wages every week. Once he wanted to buy 4 new handcart wheels. In the morning he had received for his week's wages 4 wheels. He bought it but only in the afternoon. He got only 2 wheels. On October 22nd 1923 cost the postage M 10 million, before the war, there were 0.10 gold marks. From November 15th 1923 the Hyperiflation was over.
Then above all the U.S. rented Germany 21 billion dollars, it began with the Dawes Plan. Dawes later became U.S. Vice President. As a security e.g. the German state railway pledged. This felt the German conservatives as a humiliation. Dawes' plan should stabilize the German economy. This succeeded only in part. Therefore, the capital saw in Hitler a chance to lead Germany out of these dependencies.

[Elizabeth S]

That kind of hyperinflation is so frightening. I've read about it and thought, no wonder the people needed a strong leader to bring them through it. Too bad Hitler was there to fill the void.

[[deleted user]]

Baseni wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "Wow, Baseni. What interesting links. That Voigt guy had real cheek. He's the proverbial bad-guy-that-you-cheer-for. I can see why people still tell his story and write plays..."

I love that you said "It is almost a description of how it will be after the war" In this first chapter it's very interesting how Remarque shows how adaptable the young men have been in adjusting to the war...for example how beautiful they think their time at the latrine is. Yet, he also gives us the sense that their experiences with death and the war have changed them so much that even after this first chapter, I began to question their ability to continue adapting. This chapter caused me to reflect if once a person has adaptable to atrocity, if they will ever be able to adapt to peace. The last sentence of the chapter Paul says "We are old folks" Now when they go back after the war will they have ability to sit around without the threat and enjoy themselves like they do in that wood?

[Elizabeth S]

I like your thoughts, Genevieve. You have a good point about adaptability. They've had to adapt in order to survive; those who don't adapt don't survive long. But adapting to peace--that is a whole different challenge, as the world knows.