Gardener's Group discussion
Misc&Can We Talk?!(Off topic)
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Miss Jessie has a great idea Petra! I would use her wording and go for it! There are so many people who really need to know they are not always correct in their assumptions! And she cannot hurt him or you now. It is always hard to buck the system while the kids are still in school. There were so many idiots I wanted to tell off, but had to keep it civil! GO FOR IT!
Miriam, she can hurt us. She is part of the crowd of Rich White Expats and I get business peripherally from at least some of them. I cannot risk getting cut off entirely. Let me give you an example. There was a coffee shop up the road from me in a very pretty little place. Most of the customers were ladies-who-lunch who had dropped their little ones off at school (her school mostly) or kindergarten or left them with the nanny. They did not come to my coffee shop because they were established there and anyway I am persona non grata. The landlady of the coffee shop gave the people notice and relet it, again as a coffee shop, to someone else, a local woman, an artist and photographer. She got no customers. They all went across town to where the coffee shop owner had reestablished himself. Fair enough you might say, nothing wrong with supporting an establishment you like and moving with it. BUT they were truly horrible about the new owner, the artist, and essentially said none of us go there so if you go there, you aren't one of us. She closed down.
This happens with cliques, especially of the wealthy who have nothing much but their social lives to occupy their minds, in every place in the world, its just more noticeable in a very tiny place like the island I live on.
Yes, Petra, I can see your point. Better let old dogs sleep. I have experienced the same exclusions for not being Mormon living in Southern Idaho, and for being too liberal living in small town Iowa. It does get frustrating! Good thing for friends on Goodreads you can vent to!
What exactly is too-liberal living? You seem like a very sensible, artistic and creative person, not someone operating out of the Left Bank.I didn't know Mormons were like that to other Christians. We have missionaries around here who go around in pairs and they are generally very innocuous. When I told one who was trying to convert me I was Jewish, he said (not in a rude way) 'Wow, I've never met a Jew before' and stared at me like he was looking for horns or something. He never came back!
Petra, read Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith to get a better understanding of Mormons. Where the LDS church is the majority it acts like a cult, ostracizing those who won't convert, controlling the education system to prevent kids from learning how to think/ reason, controlling scouting, dictating who folks will marry, forcing kids into missionary service for two years, keeping women suppressed, secret undergarments they are not allowed to remove completely EVER, etc. I do hope I am not offending others, but there are a lot of books written by people who have left the LDS church, so I am not saying anything that hasn't been said before in print. I lived in southern Idaho for 13 years and experienced it all. It really scares me, like the early Nazi movement did to people who really thought about what they were seeing and hearing.Iowa is not so bad as long as I don't talk politics. I think we all, including the rich, have an obligation to help others less fortunate. This is a very Republican state, and they do not want to pay for social services. They tend to view mental illness as a character flaw, even though most have a relative or two who struggles. The less government idea worked somewhat okay in the past, when the super rich did donate lavishly of their money, but it absolutely does not work now with greed such a huge part of the USA's culture. So I don't fit in here!
Petra X wrote: "I'm so happy today. My son just heard he got into U of West Indies to do law, and got a scholarship for the fees (at least, there may be more). I don't think I could feel any happier."What wonderful news!! Always thrilling when something terrific happens to a family member.
Jo wrote: "I've always wanted to quilt because I love sewing but didn't realize how involved it was until I read The Quilter's Apprentice and then I decided to stick with knitting lol!!!"If there is a quilt shop near you most of them give beginners quilting classes and take the mystery out of it all. There are many simple patterns that work up into beautiful quilts, plus smaller items such as table runners or wall hangings that can be done quickly and are not as expensive as making a quilt. I get so much enjoyment out of quilting I always want to share the experience with everyone.
MissJessie wrote: "Absolutely let the headmistress know. l. She should know her opinions are not infallible by any means; maybe it would make her have a more considered opinion.
2. Why deny yourself the pleasu..."
I think this is an excellent idea. Kids are people, not the grades in some notebook. They all learn at different rates and in different ways. One of my friends oldest son had to go to summer school every year because he was a poor reader. He is now a chemical engineer and heads up a division of over 200 people.
My brother is dyslexic. He is upper management at IBM, an engineer, and worked on the projects to take computers from building size to desk size! He was held back in first grade, and still struggled with reading. A very concrete thinker, too. His secretary is his accommodation. Nothing written leaves his desk without being checked by her, even e-mails! And he does all his math with a calculator, never pen or pencil or in his head. But he is brilliant at what he does.
I love it when people overcome supposed obsticles. I always remember even Michael Jordan was once cut from a basketball team.
Cheryl S. wrote: "What wonderful news!! Always thrilling when something terrific happens to a family member."Thank you :-)
My son's best friend was dyslexic. She had a very hard time in school to start with but got into university a year early. Admittedly it was on a sports scholarship but she is studying sports physiotherapy and that is an academic subject. Although at the time a learning difficulty is hard on both the child and the parents and schools often just don't want to bother with them, they are difficulties, not disabilities. The hard work and the self-discipline necessary to overcome them might benefit the person far more in the long run than the problems the LD initially presented.
Miriam wrote: "Petra, read Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith to get a better understanding of Mormons. Where the LDS church is the majority it acts like a cult, ostracizing those w..."I've read and reviewed http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10.... I like Krakauer as an author, whatever the subject.
Apart from a short time in my life, I've always lived with people not of the religion I was brought up in, and if they are good people it really doesn't matter what they do Fri/Sat/Sun and if they aren't you come up against a brick wall justified as 'my religion' every now and again.
Petra, I concur on both points, that difficulties in learning can actually benefit the person in the long run, and that it doesn't matter what religion people are if they are good people. I have friends of all sorts of persuasions.
I like your I am Jewish answer Petra. That's been the one I have used for years, more for evangelical door to door types around here than Mormons (neither of which I have anything against at all, just happy as I am).We live in a heavily Amish area, and while they are a very admirable group, they are IMHO also a little out there. They don't associate except in business with the English at all so far as I can tell. But the Amish grocery store is the best one around and is going like gang-busters, filled a need in a very small town 6 miles up the road which had nothing previously. And it's kind of pleasant to see horses and carriages, etc., around. Comforting somehow.
Miss Jessie, I am in an Amish area of Iowa, which state are you in? My actual town is Mennonite, from which the Amish broke away. The next town over is Kalona- very Amish.
Indiana, Miriam. And the Amish are fairly new here I gather, maybe 10 years. But they have made great progress in their farms, which are prosperous appearing to say the least.
There are actually four "brands" in this area: Mennonite, Amish, Primitive Baptist and one other distinct group whose name I don't know, since I can't figure out a tactful way to ask.
Very distinct in dress and customs. But all somewhat "keep to themselves".
One thing I enjoy, in trying to learn more about the culture, is reading the weekly newspaper the Budget. Very interesting, sort of a weekly report on what happened in each church area, birth, death, illness, accident, etc. I've picked up a lot of knowledge re lifestyle from reading this; and the advertisements are fascinating as well. I pick it up when I go to the Amish grocery a little way up the road.
Interesting, Miss Jessie. The Amish here have been here a long time, and are well established. So the countryside has little wood schoolhouses all over, and you can tell farmhouses that are Amish from the road because the power lines do not go to the houses. Also, all the main roads have very wide, well-maintained shoulders. As I understand it, the Amish broke away from the Mennonite church since they felt the Mennonites were becoming too "worldly". And different Amish communities have different rules about what technology is allowed. So around this area, gas powered engines are allowed for certain things, like tractors (but not rubber wheels- they have to be metal) but in other areas they do not allow any gas engines. The women here can use gas powered washing machines, but not driers or water heaters. The community votes on what is acceptable I think. We also have the Amana Colonies near where I live, which was an entirely different Christian group (but also from the Germany area. They believed in communal living, with each town having communal kitchens, daycares, farms, etc. although individual houses for families would also have a kitchen. Work was done for the community, and jobs were assigned supposedly by ability. But, certain families became more prominant and started to get the more desirable jobs and opportunities, and the entire structure started to fall apart, so they voted to allow individual ownership and it became more of a showcase of how they lived / tourist area over time. Like the Amish, they shared a love of woodworking, and sell beautiful furniture.
The Amana villages sound pretty close to an Israeli kibbutz (except having infuence in one of those doesn't get you .I find it really, really difficult to imagine a Deity that would say, ok you can go to heaven because you only used a gas-powered washing machine, but your friend goes down below because she used a dryer or some other such decision so obviously made by a man. the pettiness...
Fascinating discussion, ladies. Very informative.
Petra, I agree with your views entirely. The one thing that really bothers me though is the fact of no education beyond 8th grade. To me personally, it is indefensible. BUT it's their right and I support that.The Amish are very independent and self sufficient and I admire that. They don't have to pay Social security, but that's because they don't accept SS benefits. They have no health insurance but always pay cash for medical treatment and are expert negotiators of reduced rates for cash on the line at doctors and hospitals. Many many go to Mexico for treatment since it's so much less expensive.
When someone has a major illness/expense, everyone helps out and they have fund raisers as well.
Contrary to some opinions, they do pay income tax and property tax, but educate their children privately as mentioned above (at least around here, I asked an Amish lady once.) They vote.
A couple of years ago some intelligent politician got the idea to levy a $1000 tax on each Amish farm because it was contended that the metal wheels tore up the blacktop roads. I am happy to say that the English around here created a large uproar over such an idiot statement and the issue failed big time.
Petra, I agree with you about whether a higher being really cares about a lot of what religious rules dictate. The metal wheels do really tear up the roads, But that tax is not fair. Some never go on paved roads at all, and many use the shoulders even when there is no traffic.
MissJessie - how do they get to Mexico? Do they fly?Are there any woman-made religions or woman-friendly ones? I know Wicca is woman-friendly but to me spells and potions is several steps too far in the direction of restaurants I never eat lunch in.
Here in Iowa, the Amish can be driven in cars, so they hire cars with drivers to take them to Iowa City to shop or get hospital care, or hire to go visit relatives in other states. I don't know if they are permitted to fly. I have never seen any at the closest airports.
I have read (in the Budget) that they fly over long distances but many times they take the train or even a bus. Mention has been made of flying to funerals or to visit relatives in distant states, though I think driving is more common.Around here, the Amish also hire drivers to come into the city since the traffic would be out of the question for the horses (like to come to Meijers or other larger in town stores). In smaller towns around here, horses abound. So does horse poop.
The Mennonites drive automobiles.
.... I have always thought that there is just one God, Higher being, whatever and the various religions all in the end answer to the same Diety.
..... I also personally don't think God in whatever form micromanages life; my Mother, on the other hand, believes that everything is already plotted out by a higher being. So who knows?
As to female-centric religion, I have never heard of one. Which might explain a lot of the religious wars over the past thousands of years.
So essentially the Amish are able to get around any stricture when they really, really need to. Jewish people do the same. Probably everyone does. After all we're only human, all of us and wanting an easy life is a universal desire.
Petra X wrote: "So essentially the Amish are able to get around any stricture when they really, really need to. Jewish people do the same. Probably everyone does. After all we're only human, all of us and wantin..."I am laughing out loud Petra, since I am reading all of Faye Kellerman's books in order, and she has a lot in them about Orthodox beliefs. And she shows occasionally how they get around the rules. Like the concept of keeping peace within the family as a way to circumvent rules. I think acknowledging it is far more healthy than denying it happens.
Miss jessie, my beliefs are in line with yours.
There are female centric religions, but they tend to be small tribal belief systems that have been overcome by the main three in most areas of the world. A lot of African tribes had matriarchal societies and religions, as well as the Australian tribes. Some Native American (north and south and central) were matriarchal.
A lot more African tribes practice genital mutilation than are matriarchal. I don't know any African ones that are actually, so that's something to look up. I know a few that appear to be in Indonesia, or at least according to Margaret Mead.There are some interesting, but not religious, groups that aren't exactly matriarchal but are not patriarchal either inside Tibet and China. Leaving Mother Lake: A Girlhood at the Edge of the World is a wonderful book from Tibet. I have A Society Without Fathers or Husbands: The Na of China who share the same culture as in the Tibet book, in the shop waiting for me to finish reading my present set of books.
In Judaism there are only two laws you cannot break, you cannot commit adultery and cannot become an idol-worshipper. All other laws can be broken to save your own or someone else's life. Not only can, but must. It would be to break another commandment if you yourself or someone else died because you insisted on sticking to some commandment or other.
I'm not Jewish, but that sounds reasonable to me. To fail to help someone is to, in a very clear way to me, commit murder. Reminds me a lot of a guy I used to work with, real twit (not important) who professed devout Catholic beliefs; i.e., no birth control. Had more than 10 kids who he could not afford to raise really and every time his wife had another one she nearly died. (He was the kind that locked the fridge so kids could not raid it.)
I asked him one time, in a moment of being more brave than tactful, how he could justify continuing to have babies. He gave me the old no birth control line; I told him there was an commandment against commiting murder too and if he kept this up, that's what he was doing. Needless to say, he wasn't happy with me.
I changed jobs soon afterward and always wondered what happened to that clan. Kids ran wild, oldest daughter opening flaunted her inter-racial dating at a time when it wasn't common and her father was a real bigot in that area, etc.
I grew up with a lot of Catholic influence too (our live-in housekeeper was a frustrated nun from Ireland). She explained to me that all the little children would be reunited with their parents in heaven. I think if you are a Catholic that is a very reasonable explanation - who wouldn't want to have lots of little ones for all eternity even if they didn't make it for long on earth?My ex-husband is the youngest of 17 children. The first wife had seven children. When she died my father-in-law married again but this wife died in her first childbirth. Many years later, he married for the third time and my late and much love mother-in-law had ten children. I asked her how she could have so many and she said that every time one of her children began to walk her arms ached for another baby, so she had one. She also said it got easier after the third one as the others could help. (My husband being the youngest was always sent to his sisters' and brothers' houses for six months when they had babies so he could help out. Its quite possible to do this and not miss school on a small island. This was highly beneficial to me when I had our son!)
I could have easily been one of those women with a dozen kids, but nature/ God had other ideas for me. I had to have all my babies by c-section. They did not even fit into the birth canal. So I was limited to three. Probably better that way for the kids, anyway. But I can understand how someone could have lots of kids. I did in home day care when my kids were little, so I got to have lots of kids around during the day. Three that lived across the street would go home when their parents picked them up, and shortly later would be back at my house, and on the weekends too! It always seemed easier with more. The kids would each have someone to play with, rather than an odd man out.
Cheryl S. wrote: "Jo wrote: "I've always wanted to quilt because I love sewing but didn't realize how involved it was until I read The Quilter's Apprentice and then I decided to stick with knitting lo..."No quilt shops anywhere near us! Maybe one day when we move but not as long as we live here on the coast or up north!
Jo wrote: "Cheryl S. wrote: "Jo wrote: "I've always wanted to quilt because I love sewing but didn't realize how involved it was until I read The Quilter's Apprentice and then I decided to stic..."Bummer!
Keepsake Quilting (from New Hampshire) has an excellent mail order service for quilting materials; I have used them for years and always been pleased. And if you ever get the chance,their shop in NH is worth a visit.
I've wanted to go there for years. I too have ordered from this great catalog. I also love it for the ideas it gives me for projects.
I'm off to have an operation tomorrow morning, so I won't be around for a couple of days, but hopefully Wed or Thur at the latest I will be out of hospital and will be back to my Goodreads addiction.Have a good week everyone :-)
I wish you the best Petra. I'd remember you in my prayers, but that might offend you :) (I'll do it anyway.)Take care and come back soon.
It makes me feel grateful and a bit cherished to think you would pray for me, certainly doesn't offend me, so thank you.My personal philosophy is treat they neighbour as thyself... All the rest, religion, rituals etc is detail. And like the cultural differences found in music, food and travel, religous ones can be very enjoyable and broaden one's view of life.
Good luck Petra. I will be thinking of you!
I just bought myself a scooter! I have been considering it for a long time, since my knees are shot and I am unable to walk or bicycle around town any more. I spent most of today riding around, and am loving it! If it weren't for the noise, it would be like bicycling. I can look at the houses and yards, stop and chat with friends, and feel the fresh air in my face! Such a sense of freedom again! My second childhood!
Well done Miriam. I want one very badly but my husband is unenthusiastic fearing I'll get run over. He is such a pessimist. I may get one for myself for my birthday.Envy.....
MissJessie wrote: "Well done Miriam. I want one very badly but my husband is unenthusiastic fearing I'll get run over. He is such a pessimist. I may get one for myself for my birthday.Envy....."
They are more visible than a bicycle, since they are bigger and make noise! I am going to get a helmet, too. A bike one so it is comfy. Going bike speeds, so should be adequate!
Miriam wrote: "I just bought myself a scooter! I have been considering it for a long time, since my knees are shot and I am unable to walk or bicycle around town any more. I spent most of today riding around, and..."Enjoy it!
I am home for the day. My neighbours phoned to say they could hear one of my cats crying and I'd locked her in the bedroom. She must have hid and been there for two and a half days without food or water, or else gone in later and somehow the door closed behind her. You'd think she go straight for the water and food, but no she wanted cuddles for the first ten minutes. Poor thing. I have to go back to hospital tomorrow morning to have some of the stitches out but it is so nice to be home.
So glad you are home Petra! Poor kitty! I had one get out yesterday, and she is still not home. I hear her crying outside occasionally, but she is scared and won't come to me. She is the one who never did snuggle much- feral until she was rescued at about six weeks.
Miriam wrote: "I just bought myself a scooter! I have been considering it for a long time, since my knees are shot and I am unable to walk or bicycle around town any more. I spent most of today riding around, and..."Terrific!! Scooters are very popular here and I see many go by every day and think how great it is when people can stay independant when they have this form of mobility. I like to picture you whizzing around looking at everyone's gardens and enjoying the freedom.
Since my daughter and fam moved away I decided I needed to bight the bullet and get a cell phone, which I did today. I never felt the need before, but the grandkids wanted to be able to text, they rarely actually talk on the phone. I'm sure I'll make lots of errors but they love to be able to point them out to me.
I hate texting! Love getting text messages, just cannot get the hang of doing it back. The letters jump around as the phone tries to guess what you are trying to text, and it is hard to get it to do what I want! ARGH! Luckily, I have other means of communication with the ones I communicate with so far...
If you have Gmail and are in the US you can text phones from the computer for free. I think this applies to Skype as well.
I text my son's phone from my email account.
My youngest daughter gave me one of her old cell phones (flip phone) with the tiny entry keys. I am not the most dexterious person who ever lived, but so far I'm doing fairly well. I did send her a text last night that simply said "G". She thought it was pretty funny and as perdicted did give me a bad time about it.
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Quilter's Apprentice (other topics)The Quilter's Apprentice (other topics)
Leaving Mother Lake: A Girlhood at the Edge of the World (other topics)
A Society without Fathers or Husbands: The Na of China (other topics)
Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith (other topics)
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I shall dream of sending the letter to the woman, to the head of the board of governors and to the two evil teachers who attempted to screw up my son because his Daddy wasn't white. They and a lot of the people who were sending their kids to that school because they didn't want them to mix and 'pick up' island ways made my son and me stronger in character. I believe they contributed to my son's success. But there was a price. My social life never recovered.
Thank you MissJessie.