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message 3401:
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Lynne (Tigger's Mum)
(last edited Jun 19, 2016 05:37AM)
(new)
Jun 19, 2016 05:34AM
You should have heard the rhetoric yesterday on the failed convoy to Calais. Anti fascist rhetoric is equally vile. Actually more shocking because these people perceive themselves as 'caring'. If you have a right wing skinhead 'type' you know what you are dealing with.
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Not widely reported, we had an ex soldier with PTSD and mental health issues killed by Police Taser in Llanelli at the end of last week. He too needed help, and didn't get it.
Now I've seen a report (it's on FB and therefore a bit suspect) that bailiffs have seized ambulances from a privatised amubulance contractor to the local NHS trust in Sussex.
What's going on?
message 3403:
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Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Jun 21, 2016 03:46AM)
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There seems to be a developing problem with the ambulance services. A number of trusts appear to have been using private contractors to fill the gaps in the Ambulance Services fleet. Reading between the lines, it seems that the Ambulance Service have started seeing the bills come in for their work and realised that nothing gets done for nothing, panicked and cancelled them. As a result the private contractor has seen its income plummet and are now in financial difficulties having leased or purchased ambulances on the basis of work received or promised.The faeces will be hitting the rotating object any time now.
The patient transport thing has been on my local news quite a bit recently. Lots of people missing urgent appointments because transport isn't turning up to take them to hospital.Saw some footage of ambulances being loaded and taken away.
Here's an article on it - http://www.unisonsoutheast.org.uk/new...
This is terrible - this is the slippery slope to total privatisation. Before we know it - the medics will be asking who we're insured with!!
Will wrote: "Not widely reported, we had an ex soldier with PTSD and mental health issues killed by Police Taser in Llanelli at the end of last week. He too needed help, and didn't get it.
..."
have a mate, ex soldier, PTSD,
He has discovered that the police have him on a list to watch, that local Social services keep telling his girlfriends that he's potentially dangerous and if they let him move in with them they'll take the children away and various things like that.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "There seems to be a developing problem with the ambulance services. A number of trusts appear to have been using private contractors to fill the gaps in the Ambulance Services fleet. Reading betwee..."seems about right.
Because of PFI and other stupidities, the NHS is leaking money. So rather than buy their own ambulances, pay their own staff and do their own maintenance they'll subcontract because the subcontractor, not being NHS, will not have to pay NHS scale pension contributions, will probably get a better deal for maintenance (without any drop in quality because NHS are rubbish at negotiating with suppliers, see comment about PFI earlier)
and so it's possible to make savings so they can keep paying managers (you know, those who negotiated PFI etc etc)
A wee bump to make it easier to find the thread.
I really object to someone calling me a cretin for having a different idea and if there'd been a bit less of the insults the remainders just might have had a few more votes. There's nothing like a bolshie little Englander getting his or her back up. Insults can stiffen resolve wrong or right.
There have been insults on both sides. We've now got to start the long and painful process of healing the wounds and coming to some form of consensus about what we are actually going to do.Difficult times ahead.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "I really object to someone calling me a cretin for having a different idea and if there'd been a bit less of the insults the remainders just might have had a few more votes. There's nothing like a ..."There does seem to be a certain amount of irony in someone calling you a small-minded bigot for having views which differ from theirs.
Not really. If we follow that argument to its conclusion then all bigotry could be excused as someone having a different point of view.
That's what it has become. I do see the irony but I don't like the aftertaste at all. There's no generosity of spirit and no dignity anymore. It's all gloating or spitting venom.
I think that's right. Now we need to think about putting all the nastiness behind us and making sense of where we are now. For better or worse, the people have told us what they want. But we're a divided nation. We're divided geographically, with far stronger support for remain in Scotland and Northern Ireland. We're divided by urban vs rural. We're divided by age, with younger people more likely to want to remain and older people more likely to want to leave.
The challenge is to pull it all together. And for both sides to resist the temptation to say "I told you so" in the coming months and years, because there will be plenty of opportunities for that.
I'll drink to that. It will be French wine
Thinking of making a permanent move, Lynne?
think the north east was overwhelmingly for out, after the steelworks debacle, and the Scottish vote went the way I thought it would, wasn't sure about wales but then again you have the steelworks again.
Jim will be along to explain, much better than I can, how the small farmers have voted for out. I think the reasons he gives match the experiences of the welsh farmers. Apart from the Cardiff enclave, most of Wales is rural with pockets of decayed or destroyed heavy industry. A very similar demographic to the rest of the Leave voting areas.What has sickened me this morning is the vitriol being poured out on FB by the Remain adherents against even close friends who wanted Out. I really do fear that a very close friend won't be speaking to me again because her cause lost. These divisions will take a long time to heal, if indeed they ever do.
what about boris the buffoon as the the next p.m. ?
Given the size and importance of the issue, I'd be worried if there wasn't any fallouts, bitterness, and vitriol in the aftermath.It's bad enough that the turnout was fairly low; if those who took part merely shrugged and said ho-hum it would suggest the whole thing was a waste of time.
If you look at the voting map on the BBC site, you'll see that the Welsh voted unanimously to leave the EU.Yet the Welsh leader has just been on TV saying that the UK should provide the same funding to Wales that the EU was.
They can fuck off.
The turnout was 72.2%. That's not bad. Perhaps not as high as the Scottish referendum (84.6%), but it's still a little under three quarters of the electorate.I was a presiding officer at a polling station yesterday. Several voters told me that they wanted to vote because it was an important decision, but they didn't know which way to vote. They didn't know who to believe.
People will be angry and afraid because we have just taken a huge gamble with our economy, jobs, national security and our national identity. Did we all feel well equipped to take that decision?
So yes people are waking up feeling angry and worried.
Michael Cargill wrote: "If you look at the voting map on the BBC site, you'll see that the Welsh voted unanimously to leave the EU.Yet the Welsh leader has just been on TV saying that the UK should provide the same fund..."
Just as a point of order.... Wales did NOT vote unanimously for out - there were 5 areas with a remain vote.... so please get your facts straight, then pack up your vitriol and do what you suggest "the Welsh" should do....... and I thought it was the "leave" camp that were supposed to be the racist bigots!!!!
Will wrote: "Jim will be along to explain, much better than I can, how the small farmers have voted for out. I think the reasons he gives match the experiences of the welsh farmers. Apart from the Cardiff encla..."I think it can be summed up by an old chap I know. He and his brother farmed and they spent their entire time just working. There was a feeling that their sons were going to have to pry control of the business out of a dead man's hands.
But the minute the younger of the two got to pension age, they both retired and just walked away leaving the lads to get on with it.
I asked one of them about it and his words were "The joy had gone out of the job."
Too much bureaucracy, too many inspectors, too many petty rules, harsh penalties imposed at random.
To give you an idea of the world in which I live, on our maps which we update every year under EU regulations, a patch of ground had spontaneously become saltmarsh. Two miles from the sea and 30 meters up.
Next to it another pond with no points of entry or exit had become a watercourse.
As far as we can tell these changes were either generated spontaneously by the computer, or some clerk in an office just did them with no knowledge of the situation on the ground whatsoever.
Under EU regulations we're responsible for these changes, and there appears to be no way to change them back this year.
The fact is that mere hours after voting to leave the EU, the Welsh have asked for an equivalent handout from the very nation that they've screwed up.There is nothing bigoted about telling such people to fuck off.
the referendum merely revealed the divisions throughout our nation that were already there. There is little to no chance of healing them. Our political parties are not fit for purpose and they have a dearth of quality of leaders. That is the problem with the referendum, it was scarcely about the EU at all. It was about discontent, exclusion and perceived notions of identity
So, Jim, all the regulations that were previously managed by a faceless bureaucrat in the EU and directed by the European Parliament will now be managed by an equally faceless bureaucrat in Whitehall directed by the UK Parliament. Or a Welsh/ Scottish/ Northern Ireland faceless etc etc
That includes the regulations that you don't like and the ones that help you. Not to mention all the farming subsidies that a future government might have to scrap to help fend off a recession.
This is what I am struggling to understand. Many of the regulations that the EU imposed were regulations that the UK Government would probably have imposed anyway, because UK civil servants and Ministers were involved in drafting the EU regulations.
In my field of transport, we have safer cars because of EU rules on things like seatbelts, crumple zones, anti-skid brakes, etc. All good stuff. If the EU hadn't made those regulations we would need to have made them ourselves.
And we will need to make those regulations for ourselves in the future. At extra cost.
Ouch.Can we all stand back and take a deep breath?
It's happened. Stuff generally does.
Now we have to deal with it. Which might even involve some compromises.
Chill children. Chill
can't believe the rifts its causing, have aliens landed, have we been invaded, we haven't spent a lifetime in Europe, don't think there would be this much upset if it had gone the other way.
Having lived through the Scottish referendum, the aftermath of the vote wasn't that bad. Talk of bitter divisions and nations split down the middle, were over exaggerated, in my opinion. People will be raw for a few days, then things will get back to normal...
Will wrote: "So, Jim, all the regulations that were previously managed by a faceless bureaucrat in the EU and directed by the European Parliament will now be managed by an equally faceless bureaucrat in Whiteha..."Yes but the excuse given was always "We cannot change it, it comes from Europe"
And their excuse has come home to bite them
But we have been a full part of Europe up to now. Every single EU Directive affecting the UK has been drafted with the full involvement of UK civil servants and UK MEPs.The EU has never been a big amorphous organisation which does things to us. It is a partnership where we have had a large say in what it does. Until now.
From today, we will be able to say "We cannot change it, it comes from Europe." Until today we have been able to change EU directives because we were on the inside.
How can we possibly have made such a momentous decision when people didn't understand what they were voting for?
The one bit of all this that pleases me is that the turn-out was the best we've had for a long time
eastwood (do you feel lucky punk,well do ya) wrote: "can't believe the rifts its causing, have aliens landed, have we been invaded, we haven't spent a lifetime in Europe, don't think there would be this much upset if it had gone the other way."yeah there would have, cos Farage wouldn't have let it go.
Now that he's got his stated wish, will he just fade away into obscurity? Of course not, he's ambitious as hell and wants to be an MP. But what does his party actually stand for now that it's got its wish?
Will wrote: "But we have been a full part of Europe up to now. Every single EU Directive affecting the UK has been drafted with the full involvement of UK civil servants and UK MEPs.How can we possibly have made such a momentous decision when people didn't understand what they were voting for?
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They didn't see it as momentous, they saw it as a chance to kick the elites in the goolies because the elites aren't listening to their grievances.
Always happy to poke fun at idiots on either side, men or women: in a brief interview at lunchtime, our female finance minister called today 'a disastrous day for Britain' (talk about bolstering up the economy, what?) and then went on to say she was a sad person. I'll drink to that.
How will this kick the elites in the goolies? The people who will lose their jobs in the likely recession will largely be the low paid.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Thinking of making a permanent move, Lynne?"I 'm not at the moment. I don't like the travelling through Calais but as I'm looking after the grandson I'm waiting and seeing what happens.
Will wrote: "How will this kick the elites in the goolies? The people who will lose their jobs in the likely recession will largely be the low paid."I've talked to too many people who haven't got jobs they would grieve to loose.
They might lose this one but there's plenty more dead end boring jobs paying as close to the minimum as is legally allowed out there
Will wrote: "But we have been a full part of Europe up to now. Every single EU Directive affecting the UK has been drafted with the full involvement of UK civil servants and UK MEPs..."
I've taken part in the hammering out of how EU directives turn into UK law in agriculture.
We did it and two years later the EU decided we'd done it wrong and so Defra undid it and did it again.
Note that the MEPs etc had passed the original thing between ten and fifteen years previously and had nothing to do with detailed implementation
Michael, you cannot blame Wales as 855k voted leave and leave won by 1.26mIf you just take England, it was nearly 2m for leave.
Myself, I cannot believe Wales voted leave.
I'm not blaming Wales for the overall result, I'm saying they've got some bloody cheek for voting to leave and then expecting someone else to make up for the funding shortfall that their decision has cost them.
Will wrote: "How will this kick the elites in the goolies? The people who will lose their jobs in the likely recession will largely be the low paid."yeah but they don't make that calculation. It's a reflex lashing out
Jim wrote: "I've talked to too many people who haven't got jobs they would grieve to loose. They might lose this one but there's plenty more dead end boring jobs paying as close to the minimum as is legally allowed out there"
So it's okay to lose your job because there's bound to be a crappier job out there that you can do? That's the plan, is it? The big multi-national companies move out of the UK to be inside Europe and the people who get sacked can take up the low paid agricultural jobs that the eastern Europeans are currently doing?
Will wrote: "So it's okay to lose your job because there's bound to be a crappier job out there that you can do? That's the plan, is it? The big multi-national companies move out of the UK to be inside Europe and the people who get sacked can take up the low paid agricultural jobs that the eastern Europeans are currently doing? .."No, because they're in crappy jobs in the first place, the next job that comes along is unlikely to be worth.
I think I'd wait before talking about the big companies moving. Firstly that will depend on the deal we get, if we have tariff free access which is what the German finance minister wants, then why should they move?
Not everyone has a crappy job. Yet. There are plenty of skilled and semi-skilled workers who are vulnerable if a recession sends their employer under. A recession generally means reduced economic activity across the board. We cannot build a credible economic policy around "it doesn't matter if you lose your job because it's a crap job anyway".We do need to talk about the big companies moving. For many of the multinationals (especially the American companies), the attractions of the UK as a base are that we have Heathrow for easy access to the States, we speak English and we are in the EU.
A deal on our exit will take a couple of years if not longer. A couple of years when we may be in the depths of a recession. Meanwhile the big companies are looking at whether they should be in the UK or in France, Germany or Spain.
We can't just sweep these things under the carpet. We can't cross our fingers and hope that it will be okay. We can't rely on half-promises or suggestions from German finance ministers. I don't know which story you are referring to, but the only one I could find is this one where the German finance minister says that the UK should NOT have tariff free access:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2...
The public have spoken and now we need to make the best of it. It's time to put the slogans, dodgy statistics and wishful thinking away.
In a couple of years the French might have a front national president and their own referendum
Who gets the tariffs? It's not the supplier of the goods so, does it go to the costs of running the EU?
Import tariffs go to the country into which the goods are being imported. In effect, it's an extra tax. At the moment, UK companies can import and export within the EU without incurring a tariff in either direction. If we are outside the EU we don't get that benefit. We might be able to negotiate an agreement with the EU as a whole or with separate countries, but we have no idea how long that would take or what deal we could get.
The CBI estimate that around £200 billion of the UK's £300 billion of exports goes to the EU. We don't know how much of that is under threat or how much more expensive it will be in the future.
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