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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
message 3601:
by
Marc
(new)
Jun 26, 2016 07:44AM
Boris's schtick will not play well outside of the south-east, he is a muppet. He did nothing in power while Mayor, wasn't interested in detail and I suspect is just lazy
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Indeed. And Government Ministers will be held to scrutiny by Parliament for the accuracy of their statements and the effectiveness of their policies. It will be much harder for politicians to lie and avoid the advice of experts within a Parliamentary democracy.
Will wrote: "Indeed. And Government Ministers will be held to scrutiny by Parliament for the accuracy of their statements and the effectiveness of their policies. It will be much harder for politicians to lie and avoid the advice of experts within a Parliamentary democracy."It's a good job we didn't let the Remains give it away then, isn't it?
It was never on the table. We have been a Parliamentary democracy within the EU and we will continue to be a Parliamentary democracy whether we stay in or leave.Facts, Geoff, facts.
message 3605:
by
Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Jun 26, 2016 09:27AM)
(new)
Quite simple. The fact is that the only way that the Euro can work is by further political integration. Those countries that are outside the Euro zone, and therefore the political union, will increasingly be second class citizens. This would force the countries within the EU but outside the Euro zone into a choice, further political union and accept the Euro, leave or suffer being excluded from more and more decision making. The latter was already taking place within the Euro area, and we had no influence on it whatsoever. To be a participating member of the Union we would have had to have turned our Parliament into a European super state regional council, with even less power than the members of the European Parliament.
These are the major institutions of the EU:
European Parliament
European Council
Council of the European Union
European Commission
Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU)
European Central Bank (ECB)
European Court of Auditors (ECA)
European External Action Service (EEAS)
European Economic and Social Committee (EESC)
Committee of the Regions (CoR)
European Investment Bank (EIB)
European Ombudsman
European Data Protection Supervisor (EDPS)
Only one of these bodies are democratically elected. None of the members of the other bodies can be dismissed by the members of the European Parliament. Most are filled with people who were rejected by their electorate whilst in office in their home countries, or have never faced election.
Oh, and as an aside, the use of ad hominem constantly is patronising. But then simply saying "attack me" wouldn't perpetuate your feeling of self superiority, would it?
Mr Horton, our headmaster, taught Latin. Very useful when dealing with pompous prigs.
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "... pompous prigs... "!!!!!!!
Good grief, Geoff. If you have to resort to name calling, you've lost the argument.So. This.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wherr...
I'm surprised I've not heard anyone from the uk saying they're going to move to Canada. I'm constantly hearing it from Americans.
we're waiting for Scottish independence and then moving up there
Believe it or not, I think Canadian weather is better. :)
Can you guys either stop it. Now.Or actually take it outside.
Pistols at dawn maybe.
Yes, perhaps it is time for Will and Geoff to take it to private message.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Believe it or not, I think Canadian weather is better. :)"Anything's better than Scottish weather - isn't it??
This is the Take it Outside thread. I do not think that being forced out of here is correct, Patti. This is a debate that everyone should see, then edit out in their own minds what they will.
Then knock off the personal insults and discuss things properly, Geoff.
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Patti (baconater) wrote: "Believe it or not, I think Canadian weather is better. :)"Anything's better than Scottish weather - isn't it??"
Not Welsh weather at the moment!
I have to bow to the veracity of that one - it's 'orrible today!
Everybody here knows I'm a Scottish nationalist, and that is true, but I have a great admiration and fondness for England, Wales, and both parts of Ireland. It's tempting to wave goodbye as Scotland, with the only political party that knows what it's doing, departs the UK. But I don't want to see the rest of the UK engulfed in strife, because the will of the people was ignored, or parliament tried to stich the nation up with a backroom deal.
Remain's main argument seems to be that the leave camp said a few lies here and there, and therefore, the result is invalid.
If we followed that logic, every general election since 1707 would have to be re-run!!
Marc wrote: "we're waiting for Scottish independence and then moving up there"After what you said about Strachan! No chance!! :)
message 3619:
by
Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(last edited Jun 26, 2016 10:19AM)
(new)
I apologise for using the word prig.Apology retracted. I just looked it up.
R.M.F wrote: "Everybody here knows I'm a Scottish nationalist, and that is true, but I have a great admiration and fondness for England, Wales, and both parts of Ireland. It's tempting to wave goodbye as Scotlan..."I've just seen how Trump is being welcomed in Scotland.
No one can swear as well a Scott.
R.M.F wrote: "Everybody here knows I'm a Scottish nationalist, and that is true, but I have a great admiration and fondness for England, Wales, and both parts of Ireland. It's tempting to wave goodbye as Scotlan..."Think what would happen if Politicians were unable, physically, to tell lies. General Elections would be an almost silent affair!! I say almost silent, as I'm assuming they wouldn't lie about their names or the constituencies they would be representing!!
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "I apologise for using the word prig.Apology retracted. I just looked it up."
Gonna put it in the word thread?
OMY
On my way.I had to create a new thread, as it does not grind my teeth.
How does OMY represent On My Way??? Surely it should be OMW?
You're absolutely right, Flo. My command of acronyms has deteriorated since working for a company that throws them out like there's no tomorrow.
:-) Trouble with acronyms is that they mean different things to different people. We were banned from using them in our Nursing notes for that very reason. Eg. BWO to one nurse means Bowels Well Open and to another it means Bladder Wash Out.
R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: "we're waiting for Scottish independence and then moving up there"After what you said about Strachan! No chance!! :)"
nothing worse than what you yourself said about him
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Everybody here knows I'm a Scottish nationalist, and that is true, but I have a great admiration and fondness for England, Wales, and both parts of Ireland. It's tempting to wave good...Think what would happen if Politicians were unable, physically, to tell lies. General Elections would be an almost silent affair!! I say almost silent, as I'm assuming they wouldn't lie about their names or the constituencies they would be representing!!"
I once published a short story based on that very premise. it was after Gordon brown had been caught insulting that old woman in oldham as a 'bigot' and had to go visit her the next day & apologise in person
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: ":-) Trouble with acronyms is that they mean different things to different people. We were banned from using them in our Nursing notes for that very reason. Eg. BWO to one nurse means Bowels Well Open and to another it means Bladder Wash Out."Yes, I can see how that could be a problem.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I'm surprised I've not heard anyone from the uk saying they're going to move to Canada. I'm constantly hearing it from Americans."That's probably because they can't just toss everything into the back of a pick-up and drive there like we can.
Marc wrote: "T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "Everybody here knows I'm a Scottish nationalist, and that is true, but I have a great admiration and fondness for England, Wales, and both parts of Ireland..."I remember that episode. The apology didn't do much good though - once things like that have been said, they can't be re-bottled.
David wrote: "Patti (baconater) wrote: "I'm surprised I've not heard anyone from the uk saying they're going to move to Canada. I'm constantly hearing it from Americans."That's probably because they can't just..."
Sewing your Maple Leaf onto your backpack, David? :D
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Sewing your Maple Leaf onto your backpack, David? :D "Not just yet! ;-)
I know that some on here find it hard to understand why others hold different views and cannot comprehend communities wanting to leave the institution of the EU.I recommend everyone reads this piece.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentis...
An interesting read, Will. That discontent seems widespread throughout much of the country. Here in the south-west we are still struggling to survive on poorly-paid seasonal work in the holiday trade and agriculture - and then we have the fishing industry. Quotas have been taken from us. Catches worth about £1 billion a year are taken from traditional British waters by foreign-owned boats. It was particularly galling when the Dutch received huge European grants to buy new boats for their fishing fleet. Our lads bought the old Dutch boats and have tried to keep them running. We often see one trawler towing another back into port. What is really baffling is that all of these areas have MPs. What the hell have they been doing?
Trying to untie their hands from EU rules!
EU rules which have largely helped and not hindered. The EU is not the bete noire that the Daily Mail tries to portray it as.Here's a counter point of view:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentis...
I've never doubted for a minute that the EU has some good points to it, but that's all academic, now. The nation has decided, and now we need to get on and build a new nation for the 21st century.
I'd like to think that somebody has a plan that deals with housing, farming, education, transport, democratic reform etc etc
but I'm not holding my breath...
Very true R.M.F. and all the silly (query) rumours about some skulduggery going on to instigate another referendum, just isn't helping. We need cohesion and calm now to make the best of the decision, whether agreed with or not!!
It's not all academic, I'm afraid, because the formal decision to leave has not yet been made. The final decision rests with Parliament, not a referendum. My understanding is that the Government has plans only for the financial measures needed to try to mitigate the economic crash. There are no plans for how Brexit will be implemented.
And as we are seeing, it's not clear what kind of a Brexit we've just voted for.
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Very true R.M.F. and all the silly (query) rumours about some skulduggery going on to instigate another referendum, just isn't helping. We need cohesion and calm now to make the best of the decisio..."It's ironic that the only leader with any sense of calm and a plan to boot, is a leader that wants out of the UK...
Will wrote: "It's not all academic, I'm afraid, because the formal decision to leave has not yet been made. The final decision rests with Parliament, not a referendum. My understanding is that the Government ..."
It's for the parties to put a different plan to the electorate, and for the electorate to vote accordingly.
Will wrote: "EU rules which have largely helped and not hindered. The EU is not the bete noire that the Daily Mail tries to portray it as.Here's a counter point of view:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentis..."
That's not a view, that's a rant. Typical metropolitan elitist rubbish.
Government cannot decide what kind of Brexit we get. By definition that has to be agreed with the EU.It was with immense hubris that the government didn't put in place a plan to cope with a leave vote but they didn't expect one.
To say that leave should have a plan is just silly. They're not the government, many of them aren't MPs.
Similarly those wanting to have a second vote when we've negotiated a deal seem to have missed the point, if we turn down the deal, the EU is not obliged to give us another one, We'll not even be EU members at that point, because the two years will be up.
As for negotiating whilst remaining in the EU, Cameron tried that and look what it got him
Will wrote: "I know that some on here find it hard to understand why others hold different views and cannot comprehend communities wanting to leave the institution of the EU.I recommend everyone reads this pi..."
Yes, that is the world I've seen.
In fact in this area it is the young who seemed to want to leave and the elderly who tended to want to stay because they were largely comfortable
Once the referendum was announced, it was a public duty on the B of E, the Treasury and other relevant Departments to prepare comprehensive plans to present the day after the decision for both scenarios. Will, as closer to internal government workings than I am, do you know why this did not happen?
Of course Leave should have some kind of plan - many of them are MPs. Portraying them as mere campaigners is incredibly disingenuous.Instead, all we've heard from them is "Um, sorry, we lied."
Will wrote: "Once the referendum was announced, it was a public duty on the B of E, the Treasury and other relevant Departments to prepare comprehensive plans to present the day after the decision for both scen..."It did happen, at least in part. The Bank of England, Treasury, IMF, CBI et al predicted before the referendum what would happen after a Brexit vote. The Bank of England and Treasury in particular had contingency plans to shore up the economy with a £250 billion bailout fund. Both the Governor and the Chancellor have spoken to try to calm the markets.
What no-one could do was have plans for how to implement Brexit because we don't know what kind of an exit from the EU were are going to have. We didn't know (and still don't) whether this Brexit involves curbs on immigration or not. We couldn't plan for spending the £350 million a week savings because it's a fiction. We don't know how the other nations will negotiate with us, although as we are seeing they are not going to give us the benefits of EU membership without the costs.
We don't know how the markets will react in the short, medium or long term, but we know it will be overall negative. Osborne is holding off his emergency budget with tax increases and more austerity, but it will have to be faced at some time in the near future. Now that we have been downgraded by three ratings agencies we can expect public borrowing to be more expensive.
The fall in the stock market will hit private pensions, which could create a call for higher state pensions - adding more of a burden on the exchequer.
The Bank of England Monetary Committee will look at reducing interests rates to 0.25% or possibly zero. That's good news if you have a mortgage or credit card debts, but bad news if you are a saver.
The civil service is now going into overdrive to implement the Brexit decision. There is a huge amount of legislation to work through, although in the vast majority of cases a new Government will probably allow the EU regulations to stand because they are the sorts of regulations that we would have imposed as a country anyway.
There will also be a period of intense negotiations with individual states are trade agreements. The civil service is being staffed up to deal with that. We don't yet know how much it will cost.
The rest of Whitehall hasn't prepared much beyond that, in part because it's impossible to know what to prepare for.
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