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Will wrote: "And when a vast number of the public have just been conned by the Tory right wing."And there we have it in a nutshell. Will Once, as usual, treating everyone as if they are children, easily manipulated and conned. I find it hard to find anyone as condescending and patronising as you, Will.
Just for once stop talking down to everyone.
Which means a collapse in economic growth across a massive area. Why are people cheering job losses and economic collapse?
Will wrote: "Which means a collapse in economic growth across a massive area. Why are people cheering job losses and economic collapse?"Perhaps, Will you should address that question to them and, more importantly, listen to what they say. Once again, this is your opinion. Of course, as usual, you lead with a biased question.
Perhaps you should ask a less biased question? Perhaps because you have already received the answer? If you haven't then you are not bothering to listen.
Not just my opinion. It's also the opinion of just about every credible economic organisation. And the money markets. And every Government. And the credit rating agencies.Today's headline is that HSBC are talking about 1,000 UK job losses as they move some of their operations to Paris.
Other companies will be planning to do the same, but they will be keeping quiet about it because they don't want to spook the markets any more than they have been spooked so far.
It is precisely because I am listening to both sides that I ask the question. Why are people cheering economic collapse and job losses?
Still not listening Will. Shut up and open your ears. Waste of time.
Will wrote: "Which means a collapse in economic growth across a massive area. Why are people cheering job losses and economic collapse?"I'm not cheering Will, I'm fearful of that because I know the politicians are not capable of managing now, God forbid a worse scenario.
I can understand the anger, the gnashing of teeth, and the sense of disbelief about what has happened, but things will get better over the next few weeks. I felt the same sense of crushing disappointment when the Yes side lost the Scottish independence referendum.
What is needed now is realpolitik. Forget this bollocks about a petition for another referendum, ignore the weasel words of the Lib Dems promising to take us back into Europe.
Britain needs to accept the result, pull together, and work out a way to get this nation moving forward.
It'll take time to heal wounds, but it can be done...
Will wrote: "Which means a collapse in economic growth across a massive area. Why are people cheering job losses and economic collapse?"Because every so often the mob have to storm the palace before anybody takes any notice of them.
The disconnect between perhaps a majority of people and the government isn't a surprise. It's been obvious for a number of years.
But they did nothing. Labour did nothing to deal with it when they were in power, the Con-lib coalition did nothing and the current government have done nothing.
They had their chance. But they decided that obviously it was either too difficult or irrelevant. Now they've discovered it wasn't irrelevant, and tacking the problem ten or more years ago might have been easier than tackling it now.
It is not the duty of the people to support the government.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "That might be the official and face saving reaction but I've had two French friends actually phoning expressly to say well done, one phoned at half past 6 on Friday morning. I have a wonderful emai..."it could well implode. But the problem is it's given a fililp to all far right groups in EU countries, starting with LePen
I don't blame the English working classes for rebelling, they've been sneered at and patronised for years, by the 'great' and the 'good.'For raising the immigration issue, they were branded racists.
For reading tabloids, they were branded as toothless simpletons who believed anything they read in a Murdoch newspaper.
They're portrayed as work shy, benefit scroungers, who are incapable of raising their own children, mindless football hooligans ready to go on the rampage...
For years they were bombarded with that message, so it's no surprise they stuck two fingers up to the elites.
R.M.F wrote: "I can understand the anger, the gnashing of teeth, and the sense of disbelief about what has happened, but things will get better over the next few weeks. I felt the same sense of crushing disapp..."
what's it like to finally be on the winning side?
R.M.F wrote: "I don't blame the English working classes for rebelling, they've been sneered at and patronised for years, by the 'great' and the 'good.'For raising the immigration issue, they were branded racis..."
very simplistic analysis there
Marc wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "I can understand the anger, the gnashing of teeth, and the sense of disbelief about what has happened, but things will get better over the next few weeks. I felt the same sense of c..."
Pretty good actually. I keep hearing all this talk about collapsing economies and the pound going down the drain, but when, like me, you never had two pennies to rub together in the first place, I don't feel too bothered, to be honest.
so everyone has to be dragged down to the same level as you?
R.M.F wrote: "For years they were bombarded with that message, so it's no surprise they stuck two fingers up to the elites."They only think they've stuck two fingers up to the elites. In reality they have done the exact opposite. They are handing more power to the Tory right and causing an economic collapse and job losses which will impact the lowest paid more than anyone else.
It might give Le Pen hope but she'll be kept out. She wins the first round then everyone puts aside political differences and unites to keep her out in the second round. Even in Calais she hasn't a clear run but they were communists. No one admits to voting FN.
Will wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "They only think they've stuck two fingers up to the elites. In reality they have done the exact opposite. They are handing more power to the Tory right and causing an economic collapse and job losses which will impact the lowest paid more than anyone else. "Everything you have said, Will, is now irrelevant. What will happen will decide everything. If Parliament tries to thwart the will of the people, by using guile and subterfuge to halt the departure from the EU, we would have a constitution crisis not seen since the 17th century.
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "That might be the official and face saving reaction but I've had two French friends actually phoning expressly to say well done, one phoned at half past 6 on Friday morning. I have a wonderful emai..."This is one of the reasons I voted Leave Lynne. My gut feeling was that the EU was on the verge of a break-up and I would rather leave the ship when just my toes were wet - rather that wait until I was fighting to keep my nose above the water line.
That's it for me Flo, exactly.
It's only irrelevant if you stick your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen.Sovereignty of the UK remains with Parliament, as it has done for centuries. Parliament now needs to decide how to react to this non-binding referendum result.
The next stage is for the political parties to attempt to form a government and then to make sense of what the referendum actually means. This means that the Leave camp are going to have explain exactly what their policy on immigration is and give us the evidence for all their other promises. And all of that will be tested in a general election.
When the truth is on the table we will find out the real will of the people.
In order to get the best out of this decision - whether it agreed with the way you voted or not - is for everyone to show a united front to the rest of the world and work out the best suits we can with the hand of cards we've been dealt.
What immigration exactly, there are very different problems all gathering like a perfect storm. There's global migration,
War refugees
(Eastern) European casual workers wanting work
Europeans who currently work in the UK
Non Europeans entitled or not.
I'm sure there are more but all lumped under immigration.
Marc wrote: "so everyone has to be dragged down to the same level as you?"No, I'm saying that people who have nothing in the first place can't be threatened by economic Armageddon.
Will wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "For years they were bombarded with that message, so it's no surprise they stuck two fingers up to the elites."They only think they've stuck two fingers up to the elites. In reality ..."
One of the key messages of the remain camp was that if we don't vote remain, we'd be stuck with Tory governments for a million years or something.
The British people are perfectly capable of creating or voting for, an alternative to the hard right. After all, this is the nation of chartists, suffragettes, early labour party etc etc
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Will wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "They only think they've stuck two fingers up to the elites. In reality they have done the exact opposite. They are handing more power to the Tory right and causing an eco..."My thoughts exactly. If Parliament tries to keep us in on a technicality, there will be trouble...
Will wrote: "It's only irrelevant if you stick your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen."And this is exactly what you are doing Will. The people have spoken and you're not listening, as usual. If Parliament thwarts the people's wishes, I can tell you now, this country will descend into anarchy, as there will be no trust left in the political elite. Once that's gone it will never return. It is a one way street. Be very, very careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
In other words, you've got what you want (or you think you've got what you want), so now you want to suspend democracy so that no-one can change anything from this point on.It won't work. Now the Leave campaign has to explain how they are going to fulfill their promises. That ought to have some grim amusement value, if nothing else.
The people have spoken ... after listening to a dishonest campaign which is unravelling by the hour.
Just remember that the Remain campaign did not come out of this lily white. The only difference is that they lost, so no one cares what calumnies they committed.So, are you saying that if you were in charge you'd rip up the result, against the people's decision and say "we know better", because you've been lied to? You know a lot, Will, but you know bugger all about people.
You're arrogance really knows no bounds.
If the referendum is treated as non-binding, we may as well start manning the barricades now.Well said, Flo - for a day or two there I though it was only me with a pragmatic approach.
Suck it up , guys. The moving finger has written and moved on. Whether you think it's a bad job or the best thing since sliced bread, if you genuinely want the best for the populace as a whole, it's time to start considering how this can be done. And that is NOT by having a second referendum and putting two fingers up to democracy.
Labour are now in complete disarray, as are the Conservatives. Lib Dems are practically non-existent and UKIP are not on my radar, and neither are Plaid Cymru - so if there was a general election at this moment in time - I have no idea who I would vote for.
The insistence that Remain have to 'suck it up' is a nonsense. We aren't talking about a toin coss to see who kicks off a football match first, it's the future of the nation.And given that the head honchos of Leave have already started up with the excuses and backtracking - in fact they're the ones saying that the things they said are non-binding - you'd have to be incredibly naive not to acknowledge that people where lied to.
Come on, Geoff, argue about the issue, not ad hominem insults like "arrogance". That won't get you anywhere. No-one is calling you names.Whether people like it or not, the referendum is unfinished business. The people have indicated what they want based on the information they were given.
Now we need to complete the process by forming a Government around the Leave promises and see if the public will vote for that. That Government will need a fully-worked up manifesto explaining their policies and outlining their budgets. Those manifestos will be open to scrutiny and challenge. They won't be able to get away with half-promises, lies and trying to suppress the advice of the experts.
If the public vote for that, then so be it. No-one will be able to say that the didn't have the full facts in front of them. But as of now that most certainly isn't the case.
And before Geoff launches into another ad hominem attack on me, this is actually what has to happen next under our system of Government.
What Government ??? There doesn't seem to be many shreds left!
Lynne (Tigger's Mum) wrote: "It might give Le Pen hope but she'll be kept out. She wins the first round then everyone puts aside political differences and unites to keep her out in the second round. Even in Calais she hasn't a...No one admits to voting FN. "
no one outside of Essex admits to voting Brexit
Will wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "For years they were bombarded with that message, so it's no surprise they stuck two fingers up to the elites."They only think they've stuck two fingers up to the elites. In reality ..."
sticking 2 fingers up is only ever a symbolic gesture. You seem to confuse the actual for the symbolic
My preference would be for both Remain and Leave supporters to suck it up.Lies, and lies by omission - no moral high ground there.
Remain is now in the key position of being able to gain respect by listening to the will of the people and exercising damage limitation where market stability is concerned. Then perhaps we would know who to vote for, come the next election?
Well, in theory it is the current Conservative government. They will change their leader in the next couple of months but will remain as the largest party in the Commons, with a working majority of 12.The new leader will hope to take over and not have to call an election until the mandatory five year election in 2020. That would give them three years to try to stabilise their position before the election.
But it will be increasingly difficult for a new leader to stave off calls for a general election. With such a small majority they will struggle to get legislation passed if even a small number of their MPs rebel.
So the new leader will probably be forced to go to the country (ie call an election) at some time in the next six months. And that could be very difficult with 42% of Tories voting for remain.
Messy times ahead.
R.M.F wrote: "Will wrote: "R.M.F wrote: "For years they were bombarded with that message, so it's no surprise they stuck two fingers up to the elites."They only think they've stuck two fingers up to the elites...
The British people are perfectly capable of creating or voting for, an alternative to the hard right. After all, this is the nation of chartists, suffragettes, early labour party etc etc"
Labour are finished, mark my words. It cannot reconcile between the London middle class wing and the traditional working class support in the provinces, both have nothing in common with one another. And that's before the internecine civil war about to break out. So the choice will be between a Thatcherite Tory Party & another version of right-wingism as offered by UKIP who will hoover up Labour's working class support outside of the large cities. Some choice that.
I'm curious if scotland does go its own way, what political parties will contest elections up there against the SNP. Or will it as anti-SNP supporters have been telling folk for a few years, likely to become a 1-party state?
As a person who voted stay (on the principle it's better to be inside the tent pissing out), is it allowable for me to say I'm finding people's reactions even more disturbing than the result.Can we take a few deep breaths, and agree to differ?
There's enough fallout without real people getting drawn into the throat cutting.
The night of the long knives could well be about to be eclipsed by the year of the referendum
I voted remain and was pretty upset on Friday. But on Saturday i was upset with the reaction of Remain people who seemed blithely to label 17 million of our fellow countryfolk xenophobic, bigoted and racist. Labelled them as uneducated and ignorant. Labelled them as gullible and easily fooled. Hey maybe 17 of them were, or 170, or 1700, 17,000 or even perhaps 1.7million. But who knows what is in the mind of 17 million individuals? Politically I am fairly confident Geoff and I are poles apart, but on the question of disenfranchising half the population by not executing their will, he and I are in total agreement. As I said before, many votes were protesting that their voice was not being heard and here are many Remainers proposing to do just that and ignore their voice once again.
Leadership in-fighting is not usually a pretty sight and will take their energies away from what is good for the Country - to what is good for the ones on the Leadership hopefuls list.
Will wrote: "If the public vote for that, then so be it. No-one will be able to say that the didn't have the full facts in front of them. But as of now that most certainly isn't the case."Why do you think there will be a public election before Clause 50 is invoked? The next Prime Minister will already have a mandate to invoke the clause. That mandate was given to him / her by the referendum.
Any general election after that will require a dismantling of the Lisbon Treaty to prevent the UK leaving. Any changes to the treaty would require referenda in a large number of EU countries. Something that would terrify the bureaucrats of the EU, as it would then cause a constitutional crisis in a number of countries and they would not be able to pull the Ireland trick again.
Any government after that would have to begin negotiating entry to the EU, which some nations would veto. We would also have to accept the Euro to get back in, as that would be the price of membership.
I would suggest that the ship has sailed on the UKs membership of the EU. Unless, of course, someone is suggesting a coup?
it has because they will not take us back. They always (correctly I think) regarded us as a reluctant member. They will not let us leave on favourable terms because they need to use it as a deterrent to others leaving. Then the underlying motive of just punishing the UK for the grief we're causing. The LibDems policy of rejoining the EU is pie in the sky
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Leadership in-fighting is not usually a pretty sight and will take their energies away from what is good for the Country - to what is good for the ones on the Leadership hopefuls list."yep, paralysis & instability all at once. Not a good recipe
Geoff (G. Robbins) (The noisy passionfruit) wrote: "Everything you have said, Will, is now irrelevant. What will happen will decide everything. If Parliament tries to thwart the will of the people, by using guile and subterfuge to halt the departure from the EU, we would have a constitution crisis not seen since the 17th century. ..."absolutely, and I hope that the MPs are smart enough to realise this
Will wrote: "It's only irrelevant if you stick your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen.Sovereignty of the UK remains with Parliament, as it has done for centuries...."
And if we don't like the result, we change the parliament. Parliament is only sovereign if it does the will of the people. If it doesn't we get a new parliament
Marc wrote: "no one outside of Essex admits to voting Brexit ..."Plenty of people round here happy to tell you they voted to leave
Marc wrote: "Labour are finished, mark my words. It cannot reconcile between the London middle class wing and the traditional working class support in the provinces, both have nothing in common with one another. And that's before the internecine civil war about to break out. So the choice will be between a Thatcherite Tory Party & another version of right-wingism as offered by UKIP who will hoover up Labour's working class support outside of the large cities. Some choice that...."
You're right.
Labour is going to have to move very fast to re-establish contact with it's traditional voters, The speed with which they lost Scotland shows how little residual loyalty there is left in working class areas.
This country needs the Labour party, and it needs to be capable of forming a credible government occasionally and a credible opposition at other times. The worry is, when you look at the current labour leadership, how many of them could reach out to the working class in the north and midlands?
They've been hijacked by a wealthy London elite who've assumed the proles would always vote for them, just as they assumed the proles in Scotland would always vote for them.
Labour really needs to cut out a lot of dead wood and the problem could be that the dead wood is in charge.
For the tories, here they have a different issue. If Labour was viable, some pro-EU tories might cross the floor. That option is largely blocked at the moment.
For Tory MPs outside London they largely have a choice depending on their constituents. They can become anti-EU or they can try and convince their constituents to become pro-EU. Good luck on that one.
But by and large more Tory MPs are thinking along the same lines as their constituents than are Labour MPs. Unfortunately for the party, this doesn't include many of the obvious leadership candidates.
There is an interesting question here. Of the obvious leaders both Boris and Gove are hated by the class who probably produced the majority of the remain vote. Yet Boris managed to hang on to the Job of London Mayor so he cannot be the muppet they claim he is.
Same with Gove. One of the ironies of the vote is that apparently it's the ignorant and poorly educated who voted out. Well blame the education policy and the vested interests within education for that. And these same vested interests are the ones who most hate Gove. Perhaps if he'd been in charge thirty years ago, we'd have a better educated populace who voted stay?
Marc wrote: "I voted remain and was pretty upset on Friday. But on Saturday i was upset with the reaction of Remain people who seemed blithely to label 17 million of our fellow countryfolk xenophobic, bigoted and racist. ..."Just to say I agree pretty well entirely with your statement
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I really am convinced the EU is imploding.