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The 'Take it Outside' thread This thread will no longer be moderated ***
R.M.F wrote: "You're damn right we'll be pushing for another referendum. I'm voting to leave, but if my countrymen vote to stay in, then that's another cast-iron reason to get out of the UK. There's no contradiction in my position if Scottish democracy gets flushed down the pan by Westminster. ..."
Obviously the first thing will be whether the Scots vote leave or not.
I've read both, the fan zones will be stopped but tonight on the news they're talking about how many extra officers will be on duty to police them so I'm confused too.
At some point the good burghers of Germany will realise that the printing of money to ship down to Italy & Greece to a value above the entire money supply of Germany itself, will bring the whole house of cards that is the European economy crashing down. Italy is bankrupt. Its citizens proudly proclaim they pay no taxes so the State has little revenue. I say all this as a Remain supporter, but not on these insane terms
Bremain. Sounds like a good name for a 17th century highwayman. Brett Bremain. Maybe the illegitimate son of a landed noble. "Brexit, m'Laird, that Brett Bremain is robbin' us blind!"
Brilliant David...... for your next scribblings perhaps??
The finances of the EU have not been audited. It's all smoke and mirrors and like other government commitments like pensions dependent on current contributions it's just a mega Ponzi scheme.Robin Hood in reverse mode.
There's now quite a bit of talk about Parliament ignoring the referendum result and going for a Norway option of staying with the single market and free movement on the grounds that "People voted to leave but not to destroy the economy."I'm waiting for the next general election when the party in power announces it will not be handing over to the winners of the election "Because people didn't vote to destroy the economy."
I noticed it was junior Kinnock who was spouting that Jim. He's got to protect his legacy, and he's only been in parliament since the last election.
That and:Kinnock worked as a research assistant at the European Parliament in Brussels before becoming a British Council Development and Training Services executive based in Brussels in 1997.
Jim wrote: "There's now quite a bit of talk about Parliament ignoring the referendum result and going for a Norway option of staying with the single market and free movement on the grounds that "People voted t..."The Marxist Sandinista government of Nicaragua handed back power when they lost an election. Mind you they had writers, poets & artists in their government. You know, principled folk!
Even though I am firmly remain, you can't put the question to the people and then not abide by the people's decision. Maybe that should have been a 3rd option on the referendum ballot, but nowhere as it stands are people being invited to vote one way with permission to our legislators to ignore that verdict.
If it does go this way, it would be another nail in Britain's democracy that this whole campaign has done nothing but undermine. You would have thought a referendum of the people could only enhance democracy not worsen it.
A snap general election would be needed to sort out any dirty tactics from our MPs. Trouble is, Labour are broke, and the Tory supply of dodgy money from donors has been diverted to the BREXIT campaign.
I'm starting to panic about the referendum, I have absolutely no idea what way to vote. It all sounds like a load of humbug to me
T4bsF (Call me Flo) wrote: "Brilliant David...... for your next scribblings perhaps??"Thanks. Afraid there's not much else I could do with it, though. Not really good at that genre. :-)
Jud (Disney Diva) wrote: "I'm starting to panic about the referendum, I have absolutely no idea what way to vote. It all sounds like a load of humbug to me"If like me you live in Scotland, vote whichever way you want, because our votes won't make a difference - it'll be won or lost down in England.
I watched the questions with Cameron & Farage last night. Cameron was slick, slippery and unconvincing, and I have no words for how I despise Farage.For me, both lost.
Will wrote: "I watched the questions with Cameron & Farage last night. Cameron was slick, slippery and unconvincing, and I have no words for how I despise Farage.For me, both lost."
Same here. I've never felt so underwhelmed after watching a political debate. Is this really the best leaders we can produce?
Gladstone and Disraeli must be spinning in their graves.
again, I put it to you that this referendum has undermined Britain's democracy. It has shown up the paucity of intellect, the grubby morals and the fact that our politicians cannot grasp the intricacies of how the global market works (economists are fairly lousy at it too). As Ada Smith wrote & Karl Marx pointed out as a bit of a problem, the free market works "as if by the operation of an invisible hand". For Marx it meant that no one was in control or could control the market.
Marc I wonder if at some level those contemplating voting 'out' agree with you can are hoping to try and take power back from the muppets.There's some who think that the French are equally sick of their ruling elite
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2...
yes I think that's what bugs me that in or out of the EU Britain is still in a global economy, subject to crisis and downturn through factors entirely out of our control. Can't remember if I've already posted this on this thread, but our politicians can do very little to ameliorate economic woes (apart from short-term printing more money & doling it out), though they can certainly make things worse. The notion of sovereignty in economics, (digital) information, etc is illusory
A colleague was saying today that she thinks this referendum defeats the purpose of democracy. Democracy is not letting the public make decisions but is about the electing of particular individuals who will make decisions on behalf of the population. I can see where this has gone wrong as the politicians seem to make decisions for themselves rather than the public (i.e. expenses and pay rises).
What terrifies me is the number of people who will be making uneducated votes based on an opinion or bias, for example "I hate immigrants so lets leave the EU". I have been looking in to it a little and I am surprised how many things I thought were EU related but actually aren't just because the word Europe or European appears in the title. It is really quite confusing and may sway people, falsely, one way or the other (I'm including myself in this bracket but I'm trying to recitfy my uneducatedness).
Don't panic completely though, even if we leave the EU we can still take part in Eurovision *phew*
re your first paragraph Jud, that;'s a definition of representative democracy, ie deputing elected officials to represent us in a law-making parliament. But it's not the only type of democracy. The original version was that all Athenian male citizens (no women or slaves) gathered together in a physical place, debated & then voted. No representatives in sight. And with the internet we could revert to a modern version of that today, having plebiscites online to determine decisions and do away with representatives. But then that plays into the rest of your post, people don't want to be bothered with all this stuff that takes them away from the pub and would rather leave it to others. Therefore we end up with the politicians we deserve. It's up to us to take responsibility if not to rule ourselves then at least to make our representatives represent us properly.And yes this referendum is a disaster for democracy, because it's highlighting all its flaws.
it's probably highlighting flaws in society. If our elite are happy with the existence of a poorly educated underclass, it would probably have been wise on their part to disenfranchise them at the same time that you decided they could be chucked on the rubbish heap
Marc wrote: "again, I put it to you that this referendum has undermined Britain's democracy. It has shown up the paucity of intellect, the grubby morals and the fact that our politicians cannot grasp the intric..."In other words, society gets the democracy it deserves. It's apathy that's the threat to any democracy, not referendums.
You cite Marx, but Marx was also a proponent of human agency i.e Mankind being the master of its own destiny. I doubt if he would have agreed with your claim that sovereignty is an illusion.
Jim wrote: "it's probably highlighting flaws in society. If our elite are happy with the existence of a poorly educated underclass, it would probably have been wise on their part to disenfranchise them at the ..."I don't think the 'underclass' are that badly educated. Excuse the language, but they can spot bullshit from a mile away, so when they see big banks and corporate interests closing ranks with David Cameron to keep us in the EU, they smell the brown stuff.
R.M.F wrote: "Marc wrote: "again, I put it to you that this referendum has undermined Britain's democracy. It has shown up the paucity of intellect, the grubby morals and the fact that our politicians cannot gra..."Power to Marx was not an illusion. The gloss of any government, including claims for sovereignty he did regard as illusory. What Gramscii would have labelled as hegemonic superstructure overlying & masking the substructure of actual power
The farce that has resulted in the legislation change this morning that allows the Gov web site to extend voter registration would be hilarious if it wasn't so important.According to the news report where a Home Office spokesman was interviewed. They claim that the system was set up to handle 40,000 applications per hour but was handling 200,000 when they lost count and it crashed some hours later.
By my reckoning that's nearly 5 million people registering in a 24 hour period. Bearing in mind that there are only supposed to be 7.1 million unregistered voters either someone can't count, there is an enormous exercise in gerrymandering going on, or they are talking bollocks. Any or all of these could be true.
Furthermore, those registrations have to be checked at local council level. Bearing in mind we only have ten working days till polling day, that is an impossible task, so I suggest we can forego any belief that they will have any meaningful checks and that election fraud on a massive scale is about to take place.I can imagine that the Supreme Court has just cancelled all holidays for the foreseeable future.
It's actually horrifying.I simply don't believe that people are rushing to register to vote for this particular "exercise in democracy" if they have not been engaged enough to do it in the past. Most people seem to be even less interested in this vote than in past General or local elections. Something is fishy. Very fishy. And not just the CFP.
To be polite, it fekking stinks!
maybe Putin's mob are crashing the system. Or the Iranian Cyber Army...
Marc wrote: "maybe Putin's mob are crashing the system. Or the Iranian Cyber Army..."Could be almost anyone, Marc, to be perfectly honest. Whether for sinister reasons or because they can is debatable. Either way the numbers do not add up. Also, they could be crashing it to use an exploit to acquire data, after all there is a lot there to be had.
Warning: This video contains images and scenes that may upset. It contains George Osborne being interviewed by Andrew Neil over Europe.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtIJi...
Stop it.George Osborne AND Andrew Neil.
Now I feel poorly....
Jane wrote: "Stop it.George Osborne AND Andrew Neil.
Now I feel poorly...."
Honestly, Jane, a chap just can't win. The good news is that Neil does give Osborne a going over.
I'm not gonna watch that. And really, I have no right to be in this thread at all, as a Canadian.(Have you lot noticed how great our gov't is at the moment?)
*gloat*
...anyway...
I read something earlier today that a poll showed that 25% of the people polled thought that leaving the EU would would mean that Brits would no longer be able to holiday in Europe.
I didn't delve any deeper into the information. They could have asked four Jason Kyle or whatever his name is viewers...
I've also heard non EU members won't be able to live in Europe so all the expats will be kicked out. How come there's Russian, Chinese, Japanese and Indians are living here?
If we did leave the EU and Schäuble carried out his threat that we wouldn't be able import from the EU, would that be terrible. No more Polish milk, perhaps no Spanish oranges but we used to have Jaffas and south African fruit. We could also grow more here and create more jobs or is that too simple a way of looking at it. There is a movement promoting local seasonal food which is sensible and cheaper in all ways. Air and sea transport brings in tropical fruits from overseas too. I don't know if we woukd be self sufficient in farming I don't know that market. I know the European car manufacturers would be hit but how often do we buy a car?
They're all gonna be shipped to Mexico to live behind Trump's wall.Did anyone see the video of the maths behind the funding of Trump's wall?
Let me see if I can dig it up...
Unbelievable, Lynne. That would be a catastrophe for Europe. All those German car sales lost. No more juicy food exports from France. There'd be riots in the streets, and I don't mean in the UK.
I don't understand the xenophobia that seems to be gripping the world.Granted, it's a wiki, but it does put things into perspective.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...
I don't know understand either, I only fear there's a huge undercurrent forming and it's going to erupt with the inevitable consequences. Perhaps people are unconsciously preparing for it.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I don't understand the xenophobia that seems to be gripping the world.Granted, it's a wiki, but it does put things into perspective.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_......"
Thing is, as far as I can see. Those who are promoting the xenophobic thinking are peddling same to folks who think xenophobia is fear of the occupants of the planet Xeno
Jane wrote: "xenophobia is fear of the occupants of the planet Xeno..."Ha. It's not the occupants of Xeno you should fear. It's the Xenians who have been sneaking onto Earth illegally for the last several centuries. They come here, have anchor molecules, and before you know it they've brought their entire, extended Xenian family. And that can be thousands. And don't believe those voices saying Xenians are no threat because they're a benign, molecular life form. That's what they told us on Centax IX when the first trickle started, before the "blossoming," before we had to flee across the vortex. Believe me, Earthlings, you must stop the migration now. Build a wall, a quantum wall. Now.
And make the Xenians pay for it.
And ignore those bacteria behind the curtain. We're not your enemy. Really. Trust us.
Looks like you plotted your next novel there, Davey! Yay!
David wrote: "Jane wrote: "xenophobia is fear of the occupants of the planet Xeno..."Ha. It's not the occupants of Xeno you should fear. It's the Xenians who have been sneaking onto Earth illegally for the las..."
I have long worried about this.... the barricades are being erected as I type!
One hopes that the barricades are made in Britain, not imported from Europe...
History tells us that the French are the best for erecting barricades, particularly the Parisians. I'd say go with their product, hopefully on favourable trade terms
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Books mentioned in this topic
The Beiderbecke Affair (other topics)The Grain Market in the Roman Empire: A Social, Political and Economic Study (other topics)
The Peasants Are Revolting (other topics)
How to Lie with Statistics (other topics)
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I thought I read in the paper that because of terrorism, they weren't going to do the big screens in parks?
I could be wrong, or the report could be wrong