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message 3251:
by
Geoff (G. Robbins) (merda constat variat altitudo)
(new)
Jun 04, 2016 03:36AM
You think it's bad in the UK, you you see the US electronic voting system controversy that's been raging for years.
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Ha! I'd forgotten about the "flag" thingy on here and I wanted to keep Geoff's post handy, so that I could watch the Gove video later..... until I got asked what type "abuse" I wanted to flag him for ! It's only on my emails that the flag is used for saving.
I know but we used have principles even if the politicians didn't.
whilst people have accused Gordon Brown of trying to create a 'client state' of people who would vote labour because their jobs and/or benefits depended on it, frankly if he did try, he was a rank amateur compared to the EU.They have a fine record of taking member states money and then paying it to all sorts of organisations within member states who then know which side their bread is buttered and can be relied upon to support the EU
"They have a fine record of taking member states money and then paying it to all sorts of organisations within member states who then know which side their bread is buttered and can be relied upon to support the EU."You're not suggesting that scientists, universities, and charities that receive EU funding would indulge in this, do you? :)
It's all a variation on that famous Upton Sinclair quote:“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
I will remember that quote, David. Very true.
David wrote: "It's all a variation on that famous Upton Sinclair quote:“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”"
Good quote. Who's Upton Sinclair?
Upton Sinclair was a famous (Obviously, not that famous) journalist and author. Probably his best known book was The Jungle. This was based around the food industry of Chicago at the turn of the 20th Century. He wrote it based around a fictional immigrant family that were used as a device to show the terrible conditions of the time.One of his quotes about the book was "I was aiming for their hearts and hit their stomachs." The book was such a a shock that it spawned the creation of the laws on safe food production, many of which are still currently valid. Although, George W Bush tried to water them down during his presidency.
Here is the Wiki on him. It's more reliable than my memory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upton_S...
Having read the book, I would recommend it unreservedly, but only if you have a strong stomach. In my opinion he is as important as a writer as Steinbeck.
Thanks Geoff, I'll research - sounds interesting! 38 years as a District Nurse...... a strong stomach is a definite requirement!!
Many of his books, including The Jungle, are available free from the Gutenberg Library as Kindle books.
Downloaded! However, it really doesn't sound like Greek holiday material... so I'll postpone the reading for a while!
Interesting this morning.Caught a bit of discussion on the Today programme about how even if we leave, it's still got to get through Parliament and how Parliament could drag its feet or get involved in stand-up fights over which option we go for.
One example given was that Parliament could decide to stick with a free trade agreement which meant we still had open borders.
The phrase 'constitutional crisis' was used.
I did wonder whether, for them to talk like this, there has been some private polling somewhere showing a solid leave majority
You could well be right Jim... "constitutional crisis" eh! Something's up! If they are even considering the option that would leave the open borders.... then there's no point in leaving. For quite a lot of "leavers" immigration is their deciding factor.
I'm a 'Leave' voter, and for me immigration is the very least of my interests/concerns.There was a weekend poll that seems to have been suppressed that shows BREXIT 3 points ahead
I think that for many who want to leave, immigration is merely a symptom rather than 'the issue'It's not the immigration, it's the fact we cannot do a damned thing about it.
Just like we cannot do anything about a lot of other things
I'm continually offended by the fact that the Remainers I talk to online all assume I must be a racist because I intend to vote Leave, when it is a political and economic decision for me.
"I did wonder whether, for them to talk like this, there has been some private polling somewhere showing a solid leave majority,"Private polling? Unlikely. Not for the first time, the political elite have decided to potentially ignore the British public and press on regardless. Considering that most of them were dead against a referendum, this news is no surprise to me.
According to comments in the Guardian, it was a telephone poll
there will be a constitutional crisis anyway. Scotland will instantly demand another independence referendum and I believe the Northern Ireland Peace Agreement has inbuilt that it will be part of a UK in the European Union so it could all kick off there as well
I'm beginning to suspect that Cameron thought that BREXIT leanings were confined to a few racists in UKIP and some of his backbenchers and simply did not appreciate that a great deal of the UK is unhappy with the EU (whichever way they end up voting).
Brexit schmexit...I dunno which side is hosing us worst.
But I do know that come the 23rd we must all turn up and put our cross in whichever box seems best.
We can't afford to have this decision made by apathy.
there is a fiction or a fantasy at the heart of both campaigns. As an avid Pro-European I freely admit I am voting for an ideal of the community that doesn't as yet actually exist. Brexiters are arguing for a scenario that has never happened before (a member state leaving) and can have no true conception of how that would play out
and I think turnout will be below 50% which is an indictment on the whole campaign by both sides
I've just been talking to a hotelier client who has guests from sweden.They have, she tells me, been travelling across the EU which they describe as a 'warzone which ends at the Channel Tunnel amidst razor wire and riot police'. There is widespread violence and unrest, not to mention the huge French general strike against the EU attempts to remove workers rights there.
No coverage on our news, of course.
I am an avid pro european, but the current structure is unworkable and unsustainable, and we will be better standing on the sidelines when it implodes. Voting for a broken and irrepairable dream is madness.
I don't think the issue is going to be closed by this referendum, which ever way it goes, unless there is both a large turnout and a decisive victory for one side
Marc wrote: "and I think turnout will be below 50% which is an indictment on the whole campaign by both sides"my guess is that the lower the turn out, the better the chance of a leave majority.
Marc wrote: "there is a fiction or a fantasy at the heart of both campaigns. As an avid Pro-European I freely admit I am voting for an ideal of the community that doesn't as yet actually exist. Brexiters are ar..."I think you've caught it nicely. Somebody told me we ought to start a campaign to change the EU. I'm afraid my comment was that after 43 years I was beginning to lose faith in changing the EU from within
I too am pro European but I don't confuse Europe with the EU political state, unlike Eddie Izzard! ! As for what those Swedish people reported I've been telling people for months. It's not covered that much more in France - they really don't want people to know how bad Calais is. On Facebook look at Les Calaisiens en Colere. It's a community site they organise themselves to help the CRS and firemen keep the motorway to the tunnel open, at not inconsiderable risk. They ask not for hateful comments but they do have them as people are just overwhelmed at the numbers of migrants, passers and agitators. I have noticed recently there are more and more attacks on locals and property. Even when Sangatte was open and I worked not far away it was just clandestine and they kept away from the locals. Now it's almost warfare.
There are other forces at work in some of these situations with the camp at Calais. The Anitfa's here are nothing like their tame Brighton cousins who marched this weekend. They are shamelessly manipulating these unfortunate people, for their own anarchistic ends. There are also many criminals making money out of it. It's a huge mess. The day we came through there was a mass fight and we know not to stop within 200 km at rest areas. Many of them have been altered on the south to north route to remove trees and bushes as they've been used to hide in to threaten hauliers and travellers to the UK.
Yes whatever they are. What do anarchists want? I damned if I know and I supposed I'll be damned if they achieve them :o)
I had no idea it was so bad, Lynne. And I'd still be blissfully ignorant if not for you.
It's the dog's fault. If I flew to Nice I wouldn't know either. :o) That's not strictly true because I do keep in contact with some of my old colleagues in Boulogne and in the freight operations in the UK, and some of the haulier's' stories are really shocking. I've personally had to organised bail for a driver who inadvertently brought back people hidden his lorry and had to arrange for disposal of thousands of pounds worth of rejected goods. That was all over 10 years ago, the situation now is many times worse. A tip for beer drinkers - always pour it into a glass, never drink from the bottle - think about it!
I've seen someone online saying Berlin is as bad
They are dispersing people from a shanty camp in the Eole Jardins in Paris today. They say there is about 1500 there and the doctors have reported and got people into hospital with TB. So they are sending the rest everywhere in France in small groups. The mayor of Paris is going to create another camp for refugees. They have no idea what to do, there are just so many the inadequate politicians are overwhelmed so they ignore most of it. Crisis what crisis.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Canned drinks, too."Actually I buy very little imported fresh food and I always wash it well. I know what I know!
Marc wrote: "there is a fiction or a fantasy at the heart of both campaigns. As an avid Pro-European I freely admit I am voting for an ideal of the community that doesn't as yet actually exist. Brexiters are ar..."We leapt into the "unknown" when we joined..... sometimes you just have to make that leap, or things will never change. For me, I know we can manage very well thank you, without the EU, as I'm prehistoric and can remember living through those years without "their" interference. We can do this again... things might be a bit rocky at first - I'm not expecting everything to be plain sailing, but things will settle down in time... for the better, I think - none of us can be sure how things will pan out either way. My gut feeling tells me that the spectre of Greece leaving isn't too far off. I don't think they are in any better a position to pay the next instalment of their debt than they were before. This, I think would be the catalyst for the whole thing to start unravelling!
I think us leaving could bring the whole edifice toppling down anyway.The crowd control/law & order problems in France are likely to be magnified with all those football fans arriving for the tournament. Plus I have no doubt that terrorists will try and target the competition. Police & security resources will be stretched beyond belief this summer
Very true Marc. I doubt whether the ticketless fans will do as they have been asked and stay away.
they won't. They're invited to come drink in the atmosphere and watch the games on giant screens in the fan parks.
I think like you that they are desperate to retain the membership of the EU and I'm sure if the leave vote wins they fear a domino effect. The older French people want the franc back, my Italian friends moan at the inflation on food prices. We shall pass alongside the Lyon stadium when we come home but I've checked the schedule and there won't be a match. I wouldn't fancy being in Marseille stadium. It disturbed me to read that a couple of school trips have been cancelled by UK heads as if they may have been advised not to take students.
Marc wrote: "there will be a constitutional crisis anyway. Scotland will instantly demand another independence referendum and I believe the Northern Ireland Peace Agreement has inbuilt that it will be part of a..."You're damn right we'll be pushing for another referendum. I'm voting to leave, but if my countrymen vote to stay in, then that's another cast-iron reason to get out of the UK.
There's no contradiction in my position if Scottish democracy gets flushed down the pan by Westminster.
Will wrote: "I'm beginning to suspect that Cameron thought that BREXIT leanings were confined to a few racists in UKIP and some of his backbenchers and simply did not appreciate that a great deal of the UK is u..."Cameron was praying for another coalition, with Nick Clegg or Miliband being the stooge who took the bullet when the referendum promise fell through.
Jim wrote: "Marc wrote: "there is a fiction or a fantasy at the heart of both campaigns. As an avid Pro-European I freely admit I am voting for an ideal of the community that doesn't as yet actually exist. Bre..."The only person happy with this referendum is my father, as it vindicates his original decision for voting against joining the EEC back in the 1970s.
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