Reading the 20th Century discussion
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Welcome to The Midnight Bell (a virtual pub and general discussion thread) (2025)
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It reminds me somewhat of the historical debate on whether suffragettes were a 'terrorist' group.
Alwynne wrote: "Hester wrote: "I am also interested in the enduring nature of the line cowboy as a template for American Masculinity . Hollywood, in it's nascent years, had a lot to do with embedding it in the ima..."Years ago I read a book by Ray Allen Billington, Land of Savagery, Land of Promise: The European Image of the American Frontier in the Nineteenth Century. The premise was that Germans, especially, were great fans of the westerns- the written ones. They were like mythic tales to them. I probably read this book 30 years ago so I don't mean to pick on the Germans. It probably included Eastern Europeans too.
To see the popularity of books about the American West in Germany take a look at the works of Karl May and Friedrich Gerstäcker and the early success of the Irish author Captain Mayne Reid, who was also popular in 19th century Russia.
Nigeyb wrote: "The Pinch Of Salt Path"Nice one Nigey!
The thing that American book and TV westerns din’t say is that at least a quarter of the cowboys were Black, women had a great deal of independence, and community institutions were essential for survival. I wonder if the German version is any more realistic. Somehow I don’t expect them to be.
Len wrote: "To see the popularity of books about the American West in Germany take a look at the works of Karl May and Friedrich Gerstäcker and the early success of the Irish aut..."I do remember Billington talking about Karl May.
G wrote: "The thing that American book and TV westerns din’t say is that at least a quarter of the cowboys were Black, women had a great deal of independence, and community institutions were essential for su..."As I recall they were less realistic. It was pretty much a total fantasy world. Very little contact with reality. If the American ones didn't cover it then the Germans didn't even come close. I must have read this in the early '80s and I recall being astounded at how little it resembled what westerns I had read or seen. I had lived in California and Idaho so I wasn't totally unfamiliar with the West.
I have a question that I guess is about literary theory. My literature degree ignored theory altogether; its focus was on historical context together with themes within the works.The question has to do with the definition of stream of consciousness. I've always thought that meant more or less random meanderings (not random from the point of view of the author, presumably) that represent the meanderings of ordinary thought.
When I read Milkman (in audio) last summer, I noticed that quite a few of the GR reviews I read called it stream of consciousness. Now I'm listening to an audio of Absalom, Absalom!, and I've often heard Faulkner's work described as stream of consciousness. (By the way, I've started several Faulkners, and read some of his New Orleans stories from the mid-1920's, but only ever finished one book.)
I'm confused, because both titles--Milkman and Absalom Absalom--are not random meanderings at all. They are carefully crafted tales structured according to longstanding practices in oral story telling. Calling this "stream of consciousness" seems wildly inaccurate. Both of these oral narratives are highly structured, with digressions that lead to other digressions but each digression is clearly planned and brought back to the bigger point, just like a gifted oral story teller always does. (To be fair, I'm about 40% through the Faulkner, and the narrative style may change later on; right now it seems to be alternating between Rose's telling of her story and Quentin Compson's father's telling of what he knows about it.) Is this because people are misusing the term? Or is the term badly named? Or another explanation?
By the way, my mother was a gifted story teller. She once entertained us for the first 90 minutes of a 1200 mile journey--a journey we made nearly every summer, to see family on the Mississippi Coast--by telling us a version of the folktale of the overflowing pot of pease porridge. So I had lots of opportunities to hear this style of nested digressions that lead to other digressions before returning to the main point. It's rather like creating an elaborate beaded necklace.
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Here's an extract from my review of As I Lay Dying which offers my opinion:
I've seen so much that describes the writing as stream of consciousness but it's really not: it's a mix of narratives, some monologues, from the PoV of various characters, but the sentences are mainly sophisticated and fully-formed, not the jumpy, broken off noise that runs through our heads. Real stream of consciousness is an attempt to bridge the approximation of an active mind and the necessity for textual meaning - examples might be Molly's soliloquy that closes Ulysses or bits of Woolf but by no mean all. That's not what Faulkner is doing here.
I'd add Dorothy Richardson's Pilgrimage after the early volumes. But definitely not Milkman for the same reasons you state. I haven't read Absalom, Absalom so can't speak to that.
I'd also say that stream of consciousness is trying to capture sensory impressions, not just the linguistic, so a kind of psychic reality that is subjective.
I've often seen the term used when inner monologue or free indirect speech would be more accurate - or even just a 1st person narrative!
Richardson is the perfect example particularly because May Sinclair's often credited with giving the term credence in her review of Pilgrimage:https://readingpilgrimage.com/is-rich...
https://readingpilgrimage.com/elizabe...
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We have a pretty varied selection of books coming up for August. Might I ask what everyone is prioritizing? I am finishing most of my July books today, will be starting August books tomorrow, and hope to be reading the same as others.
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I'm going to be reading Ice, Carthage and King of the World, probably in that order, though may juggle Carthage depending on when Ben is ready to start it.
I'll be joining the chat on Proust and le Carré.
I'm also interested to hear people's priorities for August--I'm glad you asked, Sam.I'm still waiting for Bonjour tristesse from the library, so missed out on that discussion, but will read it when it comes. I also hoped to get a head start on Call for the Dead, since I see there's already significant discussion going of that one, but am waiting for that as well. I do have The Flight of the Maidens, so could start on that soon.
I'm juggling a lot at the moment but will prioritise whatever others are reading. I will probably do the Frayn first, since Hester is about to start, and then read Carthage, but I'm willing to start Ice before Carthage if others do.I'm getting back to the Proust as well but I'm so far behind it no longer matters!
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"We have a pretty varied selection of books coming up for August. Might I ask what everyone is prioritizing? "
I've already read...
Ice
The Flight of the Maidens
...and liked them both very much. Actually I blimmin loved The Flight of the Maidens.
Really looking forward to us starting a discussion about both of them when August rolls round
Hoping to also get to Call for the Dead having secured a copy from the library. I read it quite recently so might rely on my memory of that one
I may get tempted into the Frayn too depending on how it goes down with Susan and Ben, as I've enjoyed all of the Frayn books I've read
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"I'm still waiting for Bonjour Tristesse from the library, so missed out on that discussion"
Missed out? No way
Post a few comments Kathleen and watch it reignite back into life
I’m in your situation, Kathleen. I’ve been debating whether to read it once it comes in, or to move in to the next book. Maybe I’ll count it in my WIT reading for August.
G, great idea to include BT in WIT reading. Think I'll do the same, and then we'll see about reigniting the discussion, as Nigeyb says. :-)
@Nigeyb (mainly, but others may be interested). Item on Radio 4 today about the Oxfam bookshop in Hove; Nick Cave has donated 2000 of his books to the shop, and fans are flocking in to own a piece of his library. Staff are going through them and taking out more personal bits, but leaving in things that may have been used as bookmarks, (plane tickets/postcards etc). In the shop they are normal prices, but online, slightly more. Not sure if you're a Nick Cave fan, but I thought it might appeal to you.
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I actually volunteer at that shop and have been enjoying working through his donation including finding some of those fun items of Cave ephemera inside the books
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I will definitely read the Celia Fremlin and have started the Frayn.
Then I will see if I have time for any more.
Nigeyb wrote: "Thanks TaniaI actually volunteer at that shop and have been enjoying working through his donation including finding some of those fun items of Cave ephemera inside the books"
What a great job. Have you picked up any treasures?
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More positively, Mr RC whose reading tastes veer between huge serious history books and boy's own adventure type stories preferably with Roman legionaries now feels he'd like to read Orlando precisely because of the ban!
Roman Clodia wrote: "I just heard that amongst books that the Trump administration is trying to ban from schools for military kids is Virginia Woolf's Orlando - anyone have any insight into why? Fear th..."I don't know if you noticed but there's been a resurgence of interest in the novel in recent years because it's been widely adopted and championed by sections of the trans community, and it's often referred to as part of the trans canon. It started as a word-of-mouth thing, was spread by authors like Jeanette Winterson and via TikTok etc A couple of years ago it was everywhere in queer circles, couldn't move without stumbling over a paperback copy - was the book to be seen with.
https://whatthetrans.com/orlando-my-p...
I imagine that's what's earned it a place on the growing list of banned books/books to be banned - fear of contamination and all that...!
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We read Orlando about a year ago in my real-life reading group and despite some trepidation amongst members who were worried Woolf might be too 'high-brow', it came out as one of our all-time favourites in the group.
It's such a luminous, generous, open-hearted book - looks like I answered my own question as to why the T admin would want to ban it!
I'm sure the perceived trans connection is the reason for the Orlando ban--well, the words "sure" and "reason" don't apply to this crowd, but you know what I mean. Like you've said, it will bring more readers to the book, and that's a good thing--I think it's my favorite Woolf so far!
Kathleen wrote: "I'm sure the perceived trans connection is the reason for the Orlando ban--well, the words "sure" and "reason" don't apply to this crowd, but you know what I mean. Like you've said, it..."Also sure none of them will actually have read the book, probably just heard it's popular with trans and non-binary readers/reading groups! But Woolf's emphasis on gender fluidity would undoubtedly be considered a problem for an administration so intent on taking gender and gender roles back to the 1950s.
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"@Nigeyb (mainly, but others may be interested). Item on Radio 4 today about the Oxfam bookshop in Hove; Nick Cave has donated 2000 of his books to the shop, and fans are flocking in to own a piece ..."
Nigeyb wrote:
"Thanks Tania. I actually volunteer at that shop and have been enjoying working through his donation including finding some of those fun items of Cave ephemera inside the books"
I was there today. It's really busy with people waiting for more books to be put out. Fun too.
I bought Nick's old copy of The Great Gatsby. It's an old Penguin edition with a photo from the 1970s film on the cover. I also got given a very beaten up Dino: Living High In the Dirty Business of Dreams by Nick Tosches which was deemed too scuzzy to sell but I love it. It contained a Man Ray postcard in it as a bookmark.
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I guess I'm particularly interested in the Revolution forwards. I really am pretty ignorant about US history until the C20th century and would love to at least have an outline of the sweep.
I'm not great with narrative history so want something that keeps it interesting for a non-historian but which doesn't totally oversimplify.
Any ideas much appreciated!
“”A People's History of the United States* by Howard Zinn. It covers the Revolution onward, focusing on the experiences of ordinary people—workers, minorities, women, and Native Americans—rather than just political elites. Zinn’s approach aims to present a balanced view by highlighting perspectives often overlooked in traditional narratives, though some critique it for leaning toward populist themes. Published in 1980 and updated through subsequent editions, it spans from 1776 to the late 20th century”This is a web description I copied as a suggestion. There are many books specifically about the American Revolution such as, “The Glorious Cause: The American Revolution”, 1763-1789* by Robert Middlekauff, part of the Oxford History of the United States series.
I was going to suggest the Zinn as well, but at 784 pages it’s rather a door stopper. Perhaps id you only read up to the start of the 20C?I confess not having read it but it’s well regarded (except by the far right). It’s bottom-up history.
If you want the traditional great men, politics, economics with a smattering of major social movements, I’m afraid I don’t have any recommendations. I really respect the work of Heather Cox Richardson (who wrote the history of the Republican party and has at least one outstanding book on Reconstruction) and Joanne Freeman (who works on the early days of the democracy). Perhaps there would be something in the bibliography of one of their works.
Also, HCR has a series or excellent shirt videos on youtube that cover the period., if you’re up for a different format.
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I get bored with videos, I'm afraid, I'm a book person! I'll check out the Zinn for sure.
RC I missed your comment about page limit but when I realized I thought the book was worth mentioning anyway. It’s only 200+ pages more (grimace).
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Reconstruction was the attempt to being civil liberties and a degree of economic and political equity to the formerly enslaved in the former Confederacy (the 11 states that make up the Deep South) after the Civil War. It petered out in the later 1870’s—traditionally it is said that it ended in 1877 as part of the dirty deal that resolved the electoral tie in 1876, but apparently it limped along somewhat longe than that. I had you pegged as a book-not-video person, but decided to mention them anyway, in case I was wrong.
I think I will check out the Richardson series for a much needed refresher. Thanks for mentioning.
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So, out of interest, did our American members learn European history at school? I ask because I didn't do any US history at school other than Pearl Harbour and the US entry into WW2, then Korea and Vietnam. All of this was in GCSE i.e. age 16 and I didn't continue with history after that. Hence my current blank spot.
I don’t recall any European history in high school, apart from the two world wars (which we only got because our teacher started in the 20C then we t back to the colonial era). Many college students of my generation took 1-2 semesters of “western civilization” (which tried to give an overview of western European history, philosophy, and literature. Since I did a double major in history and German, I had rather more European history than that, but it was only western Europe. Pretty much nothing east of the Oder, and nothing later than WWI.
I was an early modernist in grad school—Tudor Stuart mostly. But still western Europe, so I’m really badly educated on the rest of the worls.
My impression is that in the US before the fall of the Soviet Union, not many people knew anything about central or eastern Europe, by the way. It was just one dark splotch on the map.
I was going to answer this earlier but I realized that it is a very hard question to answer. My first thought was the Oxford histories but each volume is longer than the limits you wished. But there is a much greater issue that I feel one must consider. Written history, while considered fact based, is very much opinion based, influenced by the author whom in turn is influenced by a number of factors contributing to the author's views, not the least of which is the theory of history to which the author subscribes. (For the moment let's not include the views of the publisher or sponsors of the author.) So while Zinn's history was important, I feel since it was reactive to a kind of adulatory history that was being taught, it has less value to one not familiar with that previous history. Zinn was influenced by Richard Hofstadter whose The American Political Tradition and the Men Who Made It is also often recommended. I also cannot think of any particular college survey. I don't know the present popular ones, and they tend to be only supplemental to the professor's lectures anyway.
So I am going to step out on a limb. I suggest, Oxford's American History: A Very Short Introduction, and suggest reading it with the group where fellow members can offer thoughts on shortcomings, errors or topics of your further interest. The author, Paul S. Boyer is a well respected author, who also follows a more liberal progressive view of history, much like Zinn. BTW, a counter to Zinn, Hofstadter, and Boyer, would be Paul Johnson's A History of the American People which is conservative reaction to liberals like Zinn.
After you have read the very short introduction you could then find materials on what interests you, so when it comes time to read Henry James, you might want to read something that gave you a better idea of the New York Blueblood elites, the Knickerbockers that resided in Washington Square.
That's a great idea. Sam. A group read of an American history text in which we can all contribute our own history of studying the history.
My European history study in high school was part of "World History", meaning everything but America. So it included the Greeks and Romans ( maximum 6 weeks), something about The Great Wall of China, the Dark Ages, which blended into the Middle Ages, and all I can recall from that was a primary source document laying out the requirements of a serf and confusion about the difference between serfs, peasants, and villeins. There was a tiny bit about the Black Death and fleas, and then the Renaissance happened, with Great Art followed by a lot of religious wars. From that I recall primary sources that confusingly showed two sides of a Catholic vs, Protestant conflict, which then showed some Catholics on the Protestant side and some Protestants on the Catholic side, but nothing about the Ottoman Empire. Then we had Oliver Cromwell although no mention of the Irish, and we skipped over Henry VIII as well! The French Revolution of course, with the Declaration of the Rights of Man and guillotines, and then a lot starts happening: Imperialism, the Industrial Revolution, the Revolutions of 1848, the Opening of Japan by Commodore Perry, the sudden appearance of Italy and Germany and World War I. And then it all ends with ... Summer Vacation!India was missing, I guess because we studied the American Indians 3 years before. And nothing about Canada or Mexico or South America or Central America , I guess because, in the words of Randy Newman, "they stole our name".
Ben wrote: "My European history study in high school was part of "World History", meaning everything but America. So it included the Greeks and Romans ( maximum 6 weeks), something about The Great Wall of Chin..."Yes, I would think a lot of us have gaps in their history. I started supplementing my knowledge of British history with Great Courses and book series by Peter Ackroyd and Simon Schama, but then something comes up that I want to investigate further and I take a break. I am still only at the beginning of the Plantagenets with years to go before the British get to America.
Reading the 20th Century
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Also anyone interested in the debate around terrorism versus activism sparked by the recent outlawing of Palestine Now might find this LRB article by Huw Lemney - who also traces connections between Quakerism and political protest - worth a look:
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