Disambiguating & Sorting When the Last Name Is Two or More Words

[Dobby]

Joseph^^de Salsa

[Scott]

Spaces always go before the last name.

[Dobby]

In this case, "de Salsa" is the last name

[Dobby]

:-D

[lethe]

Hi Corinne! No, the disambiguation spaces always come after the first name/middle name/initials. So Joseph^^de Salsa is correct.

[lethe]

Corinne wrote: "So "de Salsa" is the last name but we sort on "Salsa" because it's de is prefix and you don't sort on prefixes."

Except when it would be written "De Salsa" :)

[Scott]

I prefer de guacamole.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Corinne wrote: "So "de Salsa" is the last name but we sort on "Salsa" because 'de' is a prefix and you don't sort on prefixes."

That may be true for this author, but not all authors.
See: Daphne du Maurier who sorts "du Maurier, Daphne".

[lethe]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Corinne wrote: "So "de Salsa" is the last name but we sort on "Salsa" because 'de' is a prefix and you don't sort on prefixes."

That may be true for this author, but not all authors.
See: [author..."

She is an exception, which is what I already wrote in the other thread (which Corinne linked to in msg #8).

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

It isn't just du Maurier. The sort/alphabetize is how the author prefers it. So there is no rule.

[lethe]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "It isn't just du Maurier. The sort/alphabetize is how the author prefers it. So there is no rule."

Maybe not in GR, but there certainly is a rule in library catalogues and bibliographies (and telephone books).

And I have not come across "alternatively" sorted GR Authors apart from ones who add a space before their name so they are sorted first.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

lethe wrote: "Maybe not in GR, but there certainly is a rule in library catalogues and bibliographies (and telephone books)."

So why does du Maurier not follow the rule?

Or
Louis de Bernières
John Dos Passos
Seán Ó Faoláin

and others

It's not straight forward, even when specifying a specific language.

[L J]

Part of the problem with alphabetizing by last name is that rules vary by country and time period as well as profession of the one writing the name or doing the alphabetizing.

I know more about Welsh last names than others mentioned but ap Name, Ap Name, ab Name, Ab Name, Apname, Abname, Upname, adding s to end of Name could all be same person. And then there's ferch Name...

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Yes, and there are names of authors from other countries, I think mostly Spanish, where the surname is a double name and should not be sorted by what looks to be the last name.

Carlos Ruiz Zafón
Mario Vargas Llosa

and plenty more, I'm sure.

But not

Arthur Conan Doyle who is, of course, not Spanish, but there were lots of errors in the sort by field early on at Goodreads.

[lethe]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "So why does du Maurier not follow the rule?

Or
Louis de Bernières
John Dos Passos
Seán Ó Faoláin

and others"

Of those examples you give, John Dos Passos and Seán Ó Faoláin are sorted according to the rules I gave (sorted on capitalized prefix).

Maybe Louis de Bernières is sorted on 'de', because, like du Maurier, he was born in Britain. If he was French, his name would be sorted on Bernières and when mentioned by last name he would also be referred to as Bernières. Like when people refer to Simone de Beauvoir or the Marquis de Sade by their last names they should refer to Beauvoir or Sade, respectively (although a lot of non-French people mistakenly say 'de Beauvoir' and 'de Sade'.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Like I said, the rules don’t always apply.

John le Carré

[lethe]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Like I said, the rules don’t always apply.

John le Carré"

And again a Brit with a French name (pseudonym). Maybe we can amend the rule by saying Brits with a French name are sorted on the prefix.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

It's interesting that I'm seeing Worldcat capitalize Du for du Maurier and Le for le Carre and De for de Bernieres.

That might be how they justify for themselves the irregularity of the rule.

[lethe]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "It's interesting that I'm seeing Worldcat capitalize Du for du Maurier and Le for le Carre and De for de Bernieres.

That might be how they justify for themselves the irregularity of the rule."

Worldcat is American in origin and has the annoying habit of capitalizing all prefixes (I believe it uses the Library of Congress standard for names).

If the name is sorted on the prefix, they always capitalize the prefix, regardless of how it shows in/on the book, see f.e. this South African author: https://www.worldcat.org/nl/search?q=...

In the "new" (updated last year)* end users' catalogue, names sorted on the last name only show incorrectly in the filter categories, not in the records themselves, see f.e. https://www.worldcat.org/nl/search?q=...

The record says 'Kees van Kooten', but the filter category says 'Kooten, Kees Van'. So it is sorted correctly on 'Kooten', but capitalizes 'van', which is wrong because it is a Dutch author (same for Wim de Bie, also mentioned in the filter category).

*Librarians cataloguing in Worldcat see the standardized author name in field 100, and the author name as shown in the book in field 245, but the updated end users' catalogue gives far less information than before. Translated works do not show the original title anymore, and the responsibility field, where you could see the author name as it appears in the book (f.e. initials instead of the full name), has also gone.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

I agree, the more recent Worldcat changes make their catalog less useful.

Anyway, I'm glad you're a real life librarian, but I am not and I believe most GR librarians are not either. Thus, the questions. I was simply noting that the "rule" doesn't always apply.

[Javier]

There's also the case of (ancient) authors where the "de *******" is not a surname, but an indicator of the author's birthplace. Like Luis de Granada (in English, Louis of Granada), sorted as Granada, Luis de/Louis of - or Lucian of Samosata, sorted as Lucian of Samosata. The later makes more sense to me, but I'm not sure if that's the correct procedure 😕

[lethe]

Javier wrote: "There's also the case of (ancient) authors where the "de *******" is not a surname, but an indicator of the author's birthplace. Like Luis de Granada (in English, [author:Louis of ..."

Yes, I believe in those cases the correct (Goodreads) procedure is to sort on the first name, as in your second example.

[L J]

lethe wrote: "Javier wrote: "There's also the case of (ancient) authors where the "de *******" is not a surname, but an indicator of the author's birthplace. Like Luis de Granada (in English, [a..."

Surnames became a thing in Europe about 500 years ago. Previously people were identified by description: family (John son of David), location (John of Kent), profession (John the Smith), behavior (John the Traveler), physical characteristic (John the Short / Short John), etc.