Children of Memory (Children of Time #3) [January 30, 2023]

[Nirkatze]

So, I just found a rather interesting Blog Post by the author--where he did a wish-list casting of Children of Time:
(https://shadowsoftheapt.com/blog/1843)

I'm up into Present 4 Face of the Waters of Children of Ruin and have a lot of notes... going to type things up slowly...

Also realizing that even though Present 4 has 2x chapters, they're about 1/2 as long, so the the actual text isn't so much more than a regular section... story moving along fast....

[Mel]

Starting Children of Time.
Genesis
Okay, so those opening pages and inner monologue really give us a portrait of a narcissist. Genius, but wow we get those character flaws up front, to the point that I thought, “Oh, is this a case of where we start off from the villain’s perspective, rather than the protagonist’s?”

@Nirkatze
Thanks for sharing the jumping spider video. As I was reading, it seemed rather familiar… then once I clicked I realized that was why. Good ol’ David Attenborough. :)

[Mel]

Pilgrimage 2.1
So it took me a bit to orient myself.
(view spoiler)[At first I thought that this ship of humans in hyper sleep came from another outpost for some reason. That these people were alive when the events of the first chapter happened, but maybe they lost near-light speed capabilities, and it has just taken them thousands of years to travel the distance.

But no, we’re assuming the outposts died, and Earth civilization stagnated, underwent an ice age, and this 1,800-odd year voyage is *on top of* that Dark Age period that went on for who knows how long. Presumably thousands of years, so long that the language has to be deciphered by a specialist like ancient Sumerian cuneiform. *blinks* Okay.

… Wait, so did they lose that near-light speed ability, or have they just been flitting from place to place for that long? I should probably just stop wondering and read on. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Pilgrimage 2.4 Poor Relations
I’m reminded of The Clan of the Cave Bear.
(view spoiler)[This inherited Understanding and specialized abilities reminds me of the Memories of the Clan. Theirs were sex-differentiated, so that only women knew how to cook, and men knew about weapons, but there were also family lines of herbal medicine women, or expert flint knappers. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

@Hailee
Re: Pilgrimage
(view spoiler)[ I was under the impression that the other voice was the part of Kern’s consciousness that was uploaded into the AI, but since it was an experimental technique, she didn’t mesh together, and instead is trapped in a disembodied state, and thus “can’t open her eyes.” Pretty terrifying.

My take is also that of an omniscient narrator explaining the nanovirus parts of narration. (Wouldn’t that be wild if they had David Attenborough jump in suddenly for those sections in the audio?) I don’t think the spiders are aware of it now, but maybe if they get to the point of sequencing their own genome or something, it will become clear. I can just imagine the spider religious factions holding up the virus organelle whatever as proof of intelligent design. (hide spoiler)]

I’m also curious how the audio handled the overlapping columns of text. I’m guessing just one after the other?

[Mel]

How far along are you, Hailee? I think you’re the only other person still on book 1, right?

[Hailee]

Mel wrote: "How far along are you, Hailee? I think you’re the only other person still on book 1, right?"

Yes as far as I know. I've just started book 4 but considering how far you have got in such a short space of time no doubt you will catch up and overtake me in no time 😅

[Hailee]

Children of Time

Part 3 War: (view spoiler)[ I imagine Kern will be delighted to learn that she is being worshiped as a God even if it isn't by her precious monkeys.

I definitely warmed up to Holden and even Lain grew on me in this part. I defeintely had a lot of sympathy for the mutineers as well. i wouldn't want to endure the fate Guyen was condemning them too either. Guyen seems very much like a dictator in the making.

As for Nessel's fate, well that was the stuff of nightmares. I wonder if she really was the spider's captive until old age (if that was the "infirmity" the spiders referred to) or whether the spiders comparatively short life span made it seem that way. Either way horrific. (hide spoiler)]

[Hailee]

Mel wrote: "@Hailee
Re: Pilgrimage
I was under the impression that ..."

Yes that makes a lot of sense.

I don't do audio but I would imagine one after the other but in different tones of voice is the logical way to portray this.

[Hailee]

Mel wrote: "Starting Children of Time.
Genesis
“Oh, is this a case of where we start off from the villain’s perspective, rather than the protagonist’s?”"

At the very least she is an antagonist for the human "heroes" by part 2. I suppose time will tell how villainous she will be.

[Mel]

Finished Chapter 3, so yeah, looks like we’re in about the same place, Hailee. ( ◠‿◠ )

War 3.2

(view spoiler)[Making relative comparisons, it seems like Portia 1.0 is the rise of Homo sapiens. Portia 2.0 is the advent of civilization. We have animal husbandry, permanent dwellings, and the advent of agriculture by the time ants. Portia 3.0 seems like the classical ancient world. The advent of writing and an organized maths religion. (hide spoiler)]

War 3.3

(view spoiler)[So I’m totally sympathizing with the rebels here. When that dead moon colony was first proposed, I thought, “Who would volunteer for that?” Marooning them on a desolate moon deserves an uprising. Mutiny! Let the captain go himself if he’s so fond of the idea.

Gah! No! The mutineers capturing the innocent academic to use as a pawn though is just as bad. It’s just bad all around! Fucking war. (hide spoiler)]

War 3.9
(view spoiler)[ I admit that although I should be excited for first contact, I’m mostly dealing with my low-level anxiety of wondering what will happen to the humans. If each chapter so far has progressed generations, and these humans aren’t able to go back to sleep… is this the last we’ll see of Holsten? Surely this isn’t the last generation of spiders.

Aaand, I can’t help but be annoyed at the whole air contamination schtick. There is literally No Other Choice but to go out there. Why bother with suiting up and arguing about opening the airlock? (hide spoiler)]

War 3.11
(view spoiler)[I’m glad that Holsten and Lain live to see another day - and another generation. But I HATE that Guyen still goes through with this awful prison colony. (hide spoiler)]

War 3.12
(view spoiler)[I’m sorry prison colony, for your plot sacrifice. But how else would the spiders gain new technological and linguistic understanding over time, and still have Holsten and the others slumber to survive a new generation? Protagonist continuity demands it. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Hailee wrote: "Children of Time

Part 3 War: I imagine Kern will be delighted to learn that..."

Yeah, I don’t know if I could say she’s delighted about anything these days…

Re: Nessel
(view spoiler)[Yeah, that part got me wondering just what the comparative lifespans are. Clearly shorter than human ones, but are they evolved to be somewhat longer, perhaps? Even with a short spider lifespan, to have lasted generations she must’ve been there for years… (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Chapter 4.1

So this is a long-ish passage, but it just sparked such a great series of thought processes, in the way that the best sci-fi does.

(view spoiler)[There had been no innovation that the ancients had not already achieved and done better. How many inventors had been relegated to historical obscurity because some later treasure-hunter had unearthed the older, superior method of achieving the same end? Weapons, engines, political systems, philosophies, sources of energy… Holsten’s people had thought themselves lucky that someone had built such a convenient flight of steps back up from the dark into the sunlight of civilization. They had never quite come to the realization that those steps led only to that one place.

Who knows what we might have achieved, had we not been so keen to recreate all their follies, he thought now.

I absolutely love this. I don’t think I’ve encountered a post-apocalyptic story that explored this aspect of survival afterwards.

I mean, repeating the mistakes of the past is hardly new, but here they’ve already rebuilt, already tread the same path. And imagining the archeologists uncovering new technologies, what that would do to the drive for innovation? (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

4.4
What a terrifying and tumultuous and exciting time to be alive! (view spoiler)[The Enlightenment! Science! Plague! Advances in medicine! Electricity! Religious heretics! This is the core thrill of uplift. The desire of a teacher to see that spark of recognition and Understanding light in a student’s eyes. (hide spoiler)]

Now I have Hamilton playing in my head:
♫Look around, look around, how lucky we are to be alive right now! History is happening in Manhattan and we just happen to be in the Greatest City in the World!♫

4.5
Oh no.
(view spoiler)[Does Guyen want to create an eternal AI of himself? I don’t think it’s Holsten, because he wouldn’t be any more controllable that way. Does he want to trap Kern inside? Regardless, it sounds like a Bad Idea. … Although. If there were a way to separate the Eliza AI from Kern’s consciousness so she can be free of that torment, that would be a relief. … I don’t think his plans are so altruistic though. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Finished Chapter 4

4.6
(view spoiler)[Are they seriously using ant colonies as their computers? What a fantastic bit of worldbuilding! Also: genetics! They’re zeroing in on it!

Portia administering the cure to a thrashing Bianca, so recently considered a heretic - such drama! (hide spoiler)]

4.7
Echoes of that earlier passage.
In Holsten’s mind ran that same litany: coat-tails, coat-tails.

(view spoiler)[They were still clutching at the receding train of the Old Empire, still twisting themselves into knots to stay securely in its shadow. Even as his compatriots celebrated their newfound bounty, all he saw was a people condemning their descendants to evermore be less than they might have been. (hide spoiler)]

4.8
Noo~! (view spoiler)[Not the commodification of information! I sense capitalism just around the corner. *beats it with a stick* No! Down! Down you dog! I refuse to accept this inevitability! (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

5.1
What the fuck.
(view spoiler)[Oh. Okay I get it. The Rise of the Spiders and The Fall of Man. Doesn’t mean I have to like it! (hide spoiler)]

5.2
(view spoiler)[Now that the spiders are communicating with Kern, it makes me angry how their culture is being twisted to mimic her human dictates.
Coat-tails, coat-tails.

It is also kind of hilarious though, how there is this Massive Misunderstanding between them. I’m waiting for Kern to realize they aren’t monkeys. How will she react?

…OMG Fabian is a programmer. A chemical programmer of ants. 🤓🧪🐜🐜🐜

It’s interesting to see the discrepancies to the human timeline. They have radios, but no wheel. They have genetic engineering, but not gender equality. (Although more of a similarity, that.)

And a new wave of religious heretics. Oh, I hope that they all rise up against Kern. Reclaim the arachnocultural mantle! (hide spoiler)]

Yes, this is me getting seriously invested in Spider Politics.

[Monika]

Geez, I still had no time to pick up book 1.... Maybe in Feb... Eh...

[Nirkatze]

Ooh, really excited to read through all y'all's thoughts on book 1!! I'm a bit oversmushed during the week right now, but I'm excited to dive in on Fri... I also have NOTES on the rest of book 2 to type up still...

@Mel--glad that video was useful! I was so excited when I found it. I was like, PORTIA!

[Mel]

@Monika
Yeah, I know how that can be, when the timing doesn’t work. But you’re free in February you’re most welcome to share your thoughts then!

@Nirkatze
I’m looking forward to getting far enough to open some more comments from you guys!

[Mel]

Finished Chapter 5. As to be expected with the heading “Schism,” there was more conflict here that was difficult to get through. But there were some exultant moments as well.

5.4
*grin*
(view spoiler)[JAILBREAK!!
Spider Mission not-so-impossible. I’m rooting for Revolutionary Boy Fabian. (Utena OP ♫輪舞レボリューション♫ starts playing (hide spoiler)]

5.5
Talk about a segue.
(view spoiler)[ Excellent transition, out of one captivity, into another. (hide spoiler)]

5.6
Man, it’s just getting depressing all around. (view spoiler)[ watching the devolution into war - the only spark of hope for society right now is that Fabian will garner new rights for the males. (hide spoiler)]

5.7
“Oh, you fucker!”
Friends, this may not have be the appropriate reaction, but I laughed my head off! Genius. Exultant joy. You manipulative bastard!

5.8
(view spoiler)[ She is the cause of this war, as much as any individual spider is, but Fabian knows bitterly that she has done all she has for what she considers the best of reasons. She has hazarded her entire city because she believes.

Great parallel in overthrowing flawed leaders. (hide spoiler)]

[Monika]

I definitely will :))

[Mel]

Whole lotta feels in this chapter.

6.1
(view spoiler)[A whole library of Understandings! Yes to the free exchange of knowledge! Imagine the ability to easily rewrite your specialities and areas of expertise.
Ooh, I’m imagining some kind of Spider Spy caper. Although they cannot be forced to give up their Understanding, perhaps one is forcibly made to rewrite their knowledge? (hide spoiler)]

6.4
(view spoiler)[ Avrana recoils and, for a terrible, frozen moment knows that if what she has touched is an organic mind, then I must be… (hide spoiler)]

Oh. Oh I realize I had it all wrong. (view spoiler)[Of course the one who can feel cold wouldn’t be the uploaded Avrana, but the organic Avrana. What with the Avrana-Eliza-Sentry Pod amalgamation being so interconnected, it’s hard to tell the difference these days.

… Did she just… acknowledge the Spiders as her children?
Y’all. This is like those tearjerker stories of parents finally accepting their kids. Honestly the Disney versions are so unrealistic they backfire into cynicism, but here… I just want the Spiders to be happy! Give them all the acceptance! (hide spoiler)]

6.5
🥺🥺🥺
Guys, I caught the feels and had to put the book down after that.
(view spoiler)[The whole pathos of time, waking up to your lover grown old. Her spending years and years without him to preserve his life for a better future. This. This is my jam. (hide spoiler)]

6.6
😭😭😭
What are you doing to me!?
I get the whole parallels thing but-
This is too many feels!

[Choko]

Just started Children of Time, so I will be catching up with Hailee and Mel:) Great start, love the Teraforming and the idea of "upgrading" monkeys:)))

[Choko]

Book #1, end of Part 1...

(view spoiler)[ Dr. Kern is an absolutely fascinating character to read about! So smart, she is stupid with it! I have met people like that and you just have to take the good with the bad, or just stay away from them... Interesting the background of the destruction of electronics and Earth's war...

This is a re-read for me and was a 5* read the first time. I have a feeling it will be such again:))) (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

In part 3 of Book #1

(view spoiler)[ The humans of Gilgamesh, thousand of years later, meeting with the insanity that is Kern, was so interesting and sad at the same time!

Portia, Bianca and the new male, Fabian, going through the ant colony and stealing "the g-d's eye" was awesome! Actually, everything involving the spiders is awesome!!! They don't really understand genetics as such, but exchange "knowledge" by their males giving deposits of sperm! Just brilliant!!!

There was no getting around a mutiny, considering the captain wants to just abandon a bunch of them on a cold, unknown moon... I agree with Mel, I would be rebelling too... (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Book #1... Part 3.9... (view spoiler)[ Bianca figuring out a way to deal with the ants was so creative! The world building in this book is so smart and vivid, it makes my brain vibrate with joy!!!

The rebels just crashed into Kern's Planet and I am sure will soon find out who the inhabitants are. Is it bad that I am rooting for the spiders to kick the humans out of their world??? (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Getting to be so climactic!!

7.1
(view spoiler)[As Holsten translates the messages from the Spiders, and they completely miss out on the fact that there’s intelligent life on the planet, I suddenly had that scene from Honey, I Shrunk The Kids flash before me. “No! Dad, don’t eat me!”

Planning to kill a God and raze the planet without knowing.

“It’s time to wake up Lain.”
🤩🤩🤩 (hide spoiler)]
My face. Y’all should have seen my FACE.

7.3
(view spoiler)[And chomp goes the Cheerio.

They looked down at the spoon first though. They knew and they chose genocidal war anyway. You know what humans? You suck. (hide spoiler)]

7.4
😮😮😮
Hwaaa!?
*cue Yzma* I bet you weren’t expecting THIS!
(view spoiler)[Ahh, they downloaded her into the ColonyMind! Of course they did. Of course they did.

*watches in horror as lasers cut through the orbital web* No, humans, nooo… Do not do this thing. Why are you like this??

Yes, dramatic leaps through the void of space! This is what we’re all about! This is sci-fi! Go Spiders, go!

(I shouldn’t, but I can’t help myself.)
Gotta cut the tension somehow.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8nI-q... (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Finished! I had to keep taking breaks and putting this down to deal with the dramatic anxiety. 😣
But yes, excellent read, and I’m looking forward to Children of Ruin!

7.5
(view spoiler)[Yeah, Vitas being an arachnophobe maybe doesn’t place her as the most unbiased of decision-makers. (hide spoiler)]

7.6
(view spoiler)[ Wait. Their sentience was still in question? I thought the Prisoner’s Dilemma… And the radio. And the Space Web! All the continued communication… who do they think is communicating? Kern even said she’s not in charge - THEY are. (hide spoiler)]

7.7
(view spoiler)[ 😭😭😭
I can’t watch!
Holsten! Talk to them! Fix this! (hide spoiler)]

7.10
(view spoiler)[ If only it were so easy. Simply inject empathy programming into the human race. If only. (hide spoiler)]

8.1
(view spoiler)[I had a feeling like this would end with some kind of hope of other ark ships re-emerging from the ether. (hide spoiler)] It’ll be interesting to see where book 2 takes us. :)

[Mel]

Nirkatze wrote: "I also really like the dichotomy--the alternating chapters, each section being a new generation of Portia, and a new awakening for Dr. Holsten. I like seeing the clever structure of the story, and ..."

Yes, the structure to the story is an element of the storytelling as well. I love the parallels, the contrasting Rise of the Spider vs. The Fall of Man thing going on. I also thought that the chapters were cleverly named.

[Choko]

So, I finished and I love your updates, Mel!!!

Book #1 ... What can I say? I loved everything about it! I can't believe I had given it only 4.65 stars the first time around. It is a full 5 and maybe some plusses:) The intricacies of the world building, both in the human and spider communities, was brilliant! The attention to detail, the thought that went in the communication, the way the one group evolved and the other devolved, the differences and the commonalities, the little gestures and the big, overwhelming occasions, just so good!!!

I am so excited to see what happens in the next book! It will be my first read of that one...

[Mel]

Wow, you just zoomed straight through that, Choko!
I suppose as a reread it was easier to get through. Still, I don’t know how you speed-readers do it.

(Okay actually I do, because you probably aren’t stopping every other paragraph to look up littoral ecosystems and watch nature documentaries on mantis shrimp, and then having the go back and find that one comic by The Oatmeal on mantis shrimp etc etc. Rinse and repeat for every chapter and it’s a miracle I make it through any book at all.)

[Choko]

Haha! No, I am terrible at researching things in books... I usually trust the author to give me enough information of what I need to understand the book:) Maybe that is shallow of me, but I guess I am a lazy reader:))))

I noted the mantis shrimp detail, and was wondering if we were going to get something more about the aquatic uplifted creatures in one of the next books.

This particular book and others, which have virology and cellular biology as a prominent part of their thematics, are like catnip to me. Most of my life and initial education was deeply devoted to those, so I have the base to imagine all those scenarios and get a kick out of them:))) Just love everything about it.

When do you plan on starting book #2?

[Mel]

Nah, you’re just blessed with linear focus. My neurodivergent web-brain can’t think in a straight line to save its life. I’m like a spider!

I would also be interested to see more of the stomatopods in a future book.

I’m still waiting on my library loan (available “soon”), but I suppose I can sample the first few chapters and at least start tomorrow, after I finish my current book. Might be a few more days for it to come in though.

[Mel]

6.4
I was just thinking about this detail again, about the different ways of thinking in how the spiders vs humans would develop.
(view spoiler)[How the data for the image was arranged “obviously” in a spiral. Well, of course. How else would you create it? *eyeroll* I can imagine the spiders realizing that the human data is arranged in rows, and being so weirded out. I mean there are forms of writing that zig-zag in both directions, but what is with that awkward leap across the page your eyes have to do every line, what? (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Not to mention, more efficient gardening and use of space! Take it from nature y’all. Spiderwebs and leaves evolved their shapes for a reason.

https://www.thesized.com/spiral-shape...

[Choko]

When you delve into those, it is fascinating that we have developed and stuck with such linear geometry in most everything we do... I wonder, mammals being comprised of different, symbiotic cell organisms and organelles, prone to natural chaos, if imposing a linear and regimented outward existence makes life more bearable and easier to "control" for our brains?

[Nirkatze]

I just opened ALL THE SPOILER TAGS and I LOVED your commentary Mel! Plus it made a really great recap of book 1... And OMG it has been AGES since I've had 輪舞レボリューション stuck in my head... Definitely there for the highlights with you--(view spoiler)[Revolutionary Spider-Boi Fabian, fighting against the oppression of Males! Lain and Holsten, and him seeing her for the last time...and last time again... and discovering they have a daughter... and back to Fabian again, a different Fabian... and his sacrifice for a different Portia, at the cusp of space travel... oh all the feels!

Such a good book.

I do wish we could just inject half the human race with some more empathy though, y'know? (hide spoiler)]

Also, this book definitely helped build spider empathy period. I used to fear and crush spiders in spasms of escape. Now I still fear them but try really hard not to crush them in spasms of escape, and might just relocate them to some flowers.

[Nirkatze]

Okay, I've been sitting on these notes for weeks now, and have been meaning to type them up... probably forgotten most of it, but going to give it a try anyway, since looks like we've got a few folks jumping in to Children of Ruin now...

Children of Ruin Past 3: For We Are Many
Biblical reference: Mark 5:9. Link to chapter in the Bible if anyone is interested: (https://biblehub.com/bsb/mark/5.htm) Summary of Bible verse (view spoiler)[Jesus meets a man who has been possessed with an "unclean spirit" and acting crazy.

“What is your name?” Jesus asked.
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.”

Jesus then banishes the legion of demons from the man, and they enter a herd of pigs, promptly committing suicide by rushing into the sea. (hide spoiler)]

The name, and the reference, are very foreboding

4 (view spoiler)[OMG it's in his brain... (hide spoiler)]

5. (view spoiler)[It is seriously terrifying seeing this We absorbing learning monitoring modulating adapting... it accepts no other being but We... (hide spoiler)]

6. Paul! (view spoiler)[Back to Paul! How do antisocial creatures evolve into a society? When they find all others as annoying? (hide spoiler)]

7. OMG (view spoiler)[I love and hate the slow revelation... it's all in the change of pronouns... from my brain to "our brain" from I to We.... this whole moment really reminds me of scenes in the Alien movies... I feel like we're gonna have a chestburster any moment now...

HIVE! BORG! PROTOVIRUS! (hide spoiler)]

8. (view spoiler)[This chapter... with Lante & co's disbelief that it could be the alien life doing this, and a lack of communication... really reminds me of when the Gil came back to Kern's world at the end of Children of Time, and how they just refused to believe the evidence in front of them, of how this other species could have attained such heights, and be trying to communicate.

It is also a really interesting contrast to the Present chapters--I mean, this We managed to break down the communication barrier in DAYS. While the Present folks are having the damnedest time trying to communicate with the new Other beings. It's just that the We isn't really interested in listening without assimilating... (hide spoiler)]

We're going on an adventure... those words will never mean the same thing to me, ever again. *shudder*

[Nirkatze]

Children of Ruin Present 3: Rolling Back the Stone
Biblical Verse: Mark 16:4
Link to Chapter in Bible: (https://biblehub.com/bsb/mark/16.htm)
Bible bit summary: (view spoiler)[Mary &co go to visit the tomb and plan to anoint Jesus' body. They are arguing about who would roll back the stone at the tomb--for surely they were not strong enough--but arrive to find the tomb has already been opened, and that there is a man sitting inside, proclaiming that Jesus has risen. (hide spoiler)]

Supposedly, the story of Jonah and the Whale (Present 2) is also considered foreshadowing for the resurrection of Jesus.

All subchapters: (view spoiler)[I was reading Babel at the same time as this chapter, so it was really interesting seeing the different approaches to translation and communication.

Is the "resurrection" the communication? The reconnection of species? Is the stone that is rolled back, one of ignorance and unwillingness to see each other as individuals, like removing scales from one's eyes?

I hate what Kern is doing to M--it seems very similar to what the We do! Taking over without asking... Which makes me think--Kern & M must be the solution to the We... their mind meshing still maintains individuality while sharing experiences... if they can get through to the We---can you truly have communication if you subsume the Other during the process? Conquering is not a Conversation. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Children of Ruin Past 4: Pillars of Salt
Bible Verse: Genesis 19:26
Chapter link (https://biblehub.com/bsb/genesis/19.htm)
Summary: (view spoiler)[God sends angels to Sodom and Gomorrah to destroy these cities, for they have displeased him. But the angels warn Lot, who I think is the only good person in the cities, to flee, and urge him to take his family with him. He does, but as they flee, Lot's wife turns back to look upon the city as it is destroyed, and is turned into a pillar of salt. (hide spoiler)]

This suggests--doing something that is forbidden. Displeasing the makers. Looking back and yearning for what you had. Home is destroyed, no place to return to. Facing the consequences of your actions.

1. (view spoiler)[Wow. Senkovi. All alone--almost a Kern-like existence here, except that he didn't upload, and he had so much trouble communicating with his disciples... my heart goes out to you, old man... and I love the word choice: ...thoughts led incontinently to commands... definitely gives a geriatric feel to everything he does.

And still tormented by memories of the We demon, and what it did... (hide spoiler)]

2 (view spoiler)[OMG! The Octopi are SPACE BARBARIANS! LOL! (hide spoiler)]

4 (view spoiler)[Is this the ship Portia & co found earlier? The one with the ice jutting out? (hide spoiler)]

5. Lot! Just in case we didn't get the reference, LOL (view spoiler)[oh no oh no oh no... here comes the sin, that which will bring down the wrath... I feel like this Past 4 section has the most parallels to the Biblical reference so far... !! Don't do it! Don't touch the wreckage!!

Maybe if we're lucky it won't do well in salt water... (hide spoiler)]

7. (view spoiler)[Damn, I was not expecting that. That puts such a spin on the Present, doesn't it? That the Octopi CAN'T EVER GO HOME! Their home is destroyed.... tainted... wow... Sodom and Gomorrah are gone... (hide spoiler)]

But... I'm confused on (view spoiler)[how the We got into the spacesuit for M to be infected? (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Children of Ruin Present 5: Face of the Waters
Biblical Verse--actually seems to be all over the place. First bit is Genesis 1:1-2 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.” and it seems to be in general a reference to the Spirit of God, and maybe communion in the Waters? Holy Spirit called "living water" and more...

Any folk with more knowledge out there? All my knowledge are belong to Google.

2. (view spoiler)[I love how Helena thinks the humans had it so easy communicating with the Portiids! So true! They might not think in linear forms like humans, but they do think logically, mathematically--the Octopodes reject logic... emotion as communication!!!

The disjointed communication actually makes me think of the troubles we've been having with politics all around the world--I feel like there is a disconnect--some people are trying to communicate with logic, but others are unswayed by logic, and are making decisions and beliefs purely based on emotion...

And OMG I was NOT expecting there to be a LITERAL face on the waters!

I do have to wonder though--is the We on Nod in communication with the We on Damascus? Or have they evolved as separate We? If they *are* in communication--how? Is it like quantum communication? (hide spoiler)]

3. (view spoiler)[Fabian!!! I AM SO GLAD YOU ARE ALIVE! I mean, I'd like the others to be alive too, but mostly Fabian. If there is any line of Portiids that has earned my love from book 1, it is his, and he is the summation of his line...

The fugue is really interesting. It makes me think of people working and living with disabilities.

And OMG this made me laugh--Fabian thinking of whether he can retrieve M's implant from his body... He is already wondering if there might possibly be a way to retrieve the implant. Cold, he knows, but . . . science! But Science!! Spoken like a true scientist...

I really love the continuing exploration of sexual discrimination in the Portiid culture, and how Fabian is pushing the social norm envelope. You push! It is exactly in these situations of extremes that such leaps can be made... (hide spoiler)]

Nod--I did some more research on the Biblical connotations here... (view spoiler)[Turns out Nod is described as the land outside of Eden (specifically East of Eden, I think) where Cain was exiled. A land of wickedness, and where God's presence is not--"away from the face of God." Also apparently the word "Vagabond" has its origins in this tale somehow, lol. I was completely think of it the way The Arc of a Scythe does, with it being part of a nursery rhyme and being connected to the land of sleep, with "nod off to sleep"--but that does not seem to be the reference in this book. (hide spoiler)]

4. (view spoiler)[I feel like we haven't heard from M in ages... WHAT IS GOING ON WITH HIM???

OMG, the Octopi want them to heal Damascus!! But is that even possible?? (hide spoiler)]

5. (view spoiler)[Is the city a trap? Are the buildings alive--part of We? Creepy...

OMG--I love this little aside, reminding us that Portiids are not Humans... Back on Kern’s World there is an insect called a caddisfly, the adults of which are brief-lived breeding machines (and also delicious)--I feel like there hasn't been a lot of food references in these books... but food and what we eat is definitely a visceral part of how we relate to others... (hide spoiler)]

7. (view spoiler)[Finally M!! The flight... so interesting how the We actually attacks thought, not just controls speech... I was wondering about this during the initial For We Are Many section... (hide spoiler)]

10 I just liked this description (view spoiler)[of "force as a sense of depth"--little things like this that show the alien-ness of these different species, like the whole caddisfly comment... (hide spoiler)]

11 (view spoiler)[and another nice answer/solution. The We want to go on an adventure--but adventures require encountering new things. And if the We assimilates everything it comes across... there will be no more new things. It can't have its cake and eat it too. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Children of Ruin Future: Where Two or Three Shall Gather
Biblical quote: Matthew 18:20
Chapter link: (https://biblehub.com/bsb/matthew/18.htm)
Summary: (view spoiler)[Jesus is hosting a Q&A session and telling stories--this part especially deals with people coming together in agreement, and making things happen when you ally and agree--and that God/Jesus's presence is felt any place people gather in their name... (hide spoiler)]

I especially like the connotation of people coming together to agree on a purpose that the above quote has...

Epilogue--(view spoiler)[I have so many questions!!! The We is now an Interlocutor--does this mean they act as insta-translators? Like, they've got a symbiotic relationship with these different species, and handle inter-species communication? Or have they evolved separate bodies of their own? Are the other Interlocutors also of the We, or are they maybe Kern & Meshner?

The prologue mentions five species: Humans, Portiids, Stomatopods (Kern's World Shrimp), the Octopi, and also NEW Corvids! (hide spoiler)]

Okay, notes done! Looking forward to seeing everyone's thoughts on Children of Ruin!

I am also really hoping that Children of Memory picks up with the Epilogue--and we get to see how everything is working out...

[Mel]

Nirkatze wrote: "I just opened ALL THE SPOILER TAGS and I LOVED your commentary Mel! Plus it made a really great recap of book 1... And OMG it has been AGES since I've had 輪舞レボリューション stuck in my head... Definitely ..."

Glad you enjoyed them! They serve as a reminder to myself as well, if I have to wait between books. I also have to force you all to share the random sound bites and memes that pop into my head while reading. I’ll look forward to opening all of yours soon!

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I cried at (view spoiler)[Space-faring Fabian’s sacrifice for his Portia. Wanting her to survive him. Dancing for her one last time. I wonder at the extent of the memories that get shared. Obviously these broader Understandings, but couldn’t that mean, she also absorbed understanding how much he loved her? (UwU) (hide spoiler)]

Aw, I’m glad you have more empathy for spiders now. I’ve always been very chill with them. My brother had a pet tarantula as a kid. And I’ve had Little Miss Muffet moments, climbing out of the hot springs, or cabin-camping, and down comes a curious spider on a long line. I talk to them. “Why hello there friend. Sorry to intrude. Excuse me I need to get to my basket of clothes behind you there. If you’d not crawl on me I’d appreciate it, and I’ll be on my way. Ooh, might be careful about saying hello to the others though, they might be a bit more jumpy than I am. Thank you for eating all the mosquitoes. Happy hunting!” I’ll admit though, that I get the heebie-jeebies from baby spiders. It’s the swarming.

I’ll get started on Ruin soon. At least the first few chapters.

[Nirkatze]

Mel wrote: "Nirkatze wrote: "I just opened ALL THE SPOILER TAGS and I LOVED your commentary Mel! Plus it made a really great recap of book 1... And OMG it has been AGES since I've had 輪舞レボリューション stuck in my he..."

UwU indeed! TwT

I have had at least two times in my life, where I have looked over my glasses to see a spider dangling... from my hair. In front of my eyes. And I don't know how they got there. And it freaked me out.... when I was a kid, I used to sleep with my head under the covers so spiders couldn't crawl in my ears or nose or mouth... probably partly influenced by seeing the movie Arachnophobia at a waaay too young age. Oh, and it didn't help that my dad's work buddy's wife was a nurse, and had stories of a man who came into the ER with an earache, only to find a spider had LAID EGGS in his ear canal... the only saving grace I have is that there are NO poisonous species of anything in AK... thank gods.

[Mel]

Oh no, that eggs in the ear concept is indeed truly terrifying. Makes me think of the Animorph Yeerk slugs. Visceral twitch-factor there of something crawling into your head.

[Mel]

I started Children of Ruin with the sample of its first 4 chapters.

@Nirkatze, I see what you mean with the parallels of the two openings. Like, oh great, another crazy scientist.

Did he honestly just say, (view spoiler)["What's that worst that could happen?" I'm just waiting to see now how his tampering has royally forked up the mission in some way. (hide spoiler)]

And yay! (view spoiler)[Space octopodes! A truly excellent choice after spiders. I'm here for it, ready to see where this goes. :) (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Mel wrote: "I started Children of Ruin with the same of its first 4 chapters.

@Nirkatze, I see what you mean with the parallels of the two openings. Like, oh great, another crazy scientist.

Did he honestly j..."

YES! I think that scientist dude just literally told everyone he wasn't a virgin in a horror movie in the 90s.

[Choko]

Children of Ruin, Past #1

I didn't realize it was about another scientific crew from Earth. I am intrigued! Although, I am hoping that we get some cameos from our favorites... Eventually... The little octopi are adorable in their inquisitiveness, but also totally uncontrollable, so I am looking forward to seeing what happens now:)))

[Nirkatze]

Choko wrote: " Children of Ruin, Past #1

I didn't realize it was about another scientific crew from Earth. I am intrigued! Although, I am hoping that we get some cameos from our favorites... Eventually... The l..."

Oh don't worry, favorites will be there soon!

And "adorable and uncontrollable" is a really good description...

[Choko]

Ooohhhh my goodness! Water Bears or their more proper name, Tardigrades, are scary adorable as well!!!! I have read about them before and every time I get in the Ocean or a lake, I imagine them in trillions around me, and that usually freaks me out, just as much as the thought of mites in the mattress!!! Pretty much, everything these books cover has me very jumpy in real life, including octopi. They all fascinate me on intellectual level and I love reading about them, but I can't handle them being in my space in reality... I loved my youth, when I was ignorant of all of them, and was able to enjoy miles swimming in the open sea, but after delving into some serious biology, I now prefer looking at it, while swimming in a well treated pool...
Nirkatze, I second Dave in really appreciating your indebt analysis of the biblical sections of the chapter names. I have a good grasp of the Torah, but the New Testament is more of a passing acquaintance. The Genesis is a shared account for all biblical religions, so that was pretty obvious. Present 1, Road to Damascus... Paul's conversation... Very interesting...

I just finished Children of Ruin Section 3, Past 2: Land of Milk and Honey... I actually, like Iain, have been fascinated by the Octopi in the past and watched documentaries and read about their natural curiosity and intelligence. As creepy as I find them, they are a great example of another very advanced species.
(view spoiler)[ The Portids are in for a lot of different thinking, so far away from their more organized thinking and behavior... Just the idea of a highly evolved creatures with such chaotic, for us, brain activity, would drive me insane! It's like someone with super ADHD and unlimited energy running around and touching everything and breaking things just to see how they work and then putting them back together in some weird way, and I will be running away in panic, since my linear geometry world would feel threatened and under siege...

Wow, Nirkatze, your connection to the Bible in Ch. 2 is so on point!!!

Baltiel and Senkovi are definitely being set up as Zeus if Nod and Poseidon of Damascus.

I think the Tortoises attacked by maybe injecting their version of a virus into the human... I can't wait to see how that goes... (hide spoiler)]