Children of Memory (Children of Time #3) [January 30, 2023]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Early part 12: (view spoiler)[all these ruminations and layers of
Simulation have me thinking of how the time loop starts deteriorating in Russian Doll season 1 (still haven't watched season 2) (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Finished… I’m in love with this book right now… I think the confusing nature of the book really paid off… similar to the confusion of Harrow the Ninth, if very different…

And the epilogue left tons of fodder for the next book…

(view spoiler)[I really like that they rescued Liff… and that These of We / Miranda grew to recognize how monstrous she used to be… and how the birds proved to be sentient enough to treat as sentient by arguing that nobody is sentient, and why would they want to be?

XD (hide spoiler)]

[Hailee]

Children of Time Part 6

(view spoiler)[Aww actually the relationship between Holsten and lain has developed into something quite sweet.

So Kern has finally twigged that her monkeys are no more and she has spider "children" instead, and she doesn't care as long as she is their "creator". This is what I would expect from her ego I suppose. (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Hailee, I honestly envy you for just starting this series! Discovering everything about this world is just such a treat!!!

[Choko]

I started Children of Memory #3 Part 1 was interesting and I noticed that the command structure of this ship didn't break down the way it did on the Gilgamesh...

I am in Part 2.2 right now and (view spoiler)[ Miranda and Fabian??? They are different from the rest, so I am guessing they are somehow connected to our friends from book #2?...

I noticed the Day of Remembrance... They are talking about not forgetting those who are in the frozen, who don't feel it but don't get older... Obviously, the founders of the colony had tried to instill with this ritual the knowledge of the "cargo", the humans in cryogenesis, but obviously the majority of folks not only have forgotten, but have no idea what this story is all about... I am deducing that the colonials have been trying for generations to tame this half way teraformed planet, and were supposed to get their frozen comrades once they had established themselves, but for some reason that never happened... I am very excited to find out what exactly is going on! (hide spoiler)]

Loving this story already!!!

[Mel]

Hailee wrote: "Children of Time Part 6"

(view spoiler)[Aww actually the relationship between Holsten and lain has developed into something quite sweet. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[Yeah, the kicker for me is the knowing one another. The shared experience. There is a distinction between those who grew up on Earth and the Tribe who grew up on the ship. The Key Crew who saw rebellions together. So the tragedy of them being apart is that loss of shared experience. Losing the people who went through the same thing, who have a context for your grief.

It makes me think of other survivor communities. Of natural disasters. Of war. Of abusive environments. How there's an instant understanding between other survivors, and how it can seem so flimsy to try to explain to others, to encapsulate such a vast thing into a conversational pill. (hide spoiler)]

[Tonari no Emily]

Timelord Iain wrote: "Finished… I’m in love with this book right now… I think the confusing nature of the book really paid off… similar to the confusion of Harrow the Ninth, if very different…

And the epilogue left ton..."

This was my favorite in the series so far! It definitely reminded me of Harrow, which is my favorite in the Locked Tomb... I guess somehow I like having no idea what's going on, but by the end everything is revealed/makes sense...

[Mel]

Oh, and my hold fiiiinally came in from the library, so I can start Children of Ruin with you Hailee! I might try and squeeze in another Penric and Desdemona novella or two first. Not a huge fan of series-hopping, so it's anyone's guess how that'll go. But I'm still here to read with you!

[Mel]

Tonari no Emily wrote: "This was my favorite in the series so far! It definitely reminded me of Harrow, which is my favorite in the Locked Tomb... I guess somehow I like having no idea what's going on, but by the end everything is revealed/makes sense..."

This makes me both excited and terrified to get to Memory, remembering the experience of reading Harrow last fall... (;;@_@)|||

[Tonari no Emily]

Haha Mel I hope you enjoy it!

[Choko]

Children of Memory #3, ended Part 3

(view spoiler)[ The teraformed planet of Rook . The uplifted birds are absolutely fascinating!!! A lot like the octopuses, they are very curious and like to dismantle things, which once again would have me in panic if I live somewhere, where oxygen and food depends on machines, which the Rookers would love to take down to its parts and put back in whatever way makes sense for them...

Having the Nodians is great and it is amazing that they have come to understand the destruction they had caused and are capable of, and trying their best to never do that again... The cloned body of Miranda they use is a very interesting solution to their mobility... (hide spoiler)]

Everything in this series is brilliant!!! I am absolutely fascinated at all times! I wish I knew people in RL I could recommend it to, because I feel like I have to make more people read it!!!

[Choko]

Children of Memory #3, Part 4

(view spoiler)[ I really hope they are not dead! Please, be OK!!! (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Children of Memory #3, Part 5

The history of the Corvids was awesome! I am very intrigued by them! The small time-jumps of the story don't bother me at all. This book is awesome!

[Nirkatze]

Just starting Children of Memory and of course, I had to look through the ToC to see what the references were this time!

Part 1: "The Ancient Mariner" most likely a reference to Samuel Taylor Coleridge's Rime of the Ancient Mariner 1834--which starts out with a ship blown by storm into dangerous Antarctic waters, led to safety by and albatross, which the mariner then shoots and kills. Further summary: (view spoiler)[the sailors first blame the mariner, but when the weather turns for the warmer, they praise his sin instead. Mistake! Angry spirits chase them until they are becalmed near the equator, and as the sailors begin to perish of thirst, they blame the mariner again, and hang the albatross around his neck. A ghostly ship approaches their becalmed one, steered by Death and Lady Life-in-Death, who win the crew in a dice game--Death takes the sailors and Life-in-Death takes the mariner. He alone survives, cursed to walk the earth and tell his tale to any who will listen. (hide spoiler)] For the full poem see (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...)

Thoughts on Part 1: 1.1 & 1.2
(view spoiler)[The whole "dream of Edens" but being faced with an icy uninhabitable wreck of a planet jives with the beginning of the Rime. Could the albatross be the signals? Is the mariner the whole of the Key Crew, or a specific member? Perhaps the captain, or security chief? Does this mean all of their cargo will die--or will there be a twist? Does the Rime only apply for these first few chapters in Part 1, or will the theme continue and blend with others throughout the book?

Also wondering about the name "Imir"--it seems to have both Irish and Persian iterations, and then there's the Norse Ymir. In Irish it can mean "to play" and initially meant "to carry over." Persian roots usually spell out Amir, and means "immortal" or "leader/boss." Ymir in Norse mythology was the father of the Jotun, and the Earth was crafted from his body. Not really sure which of these references was used to name the planet.

I'm leaning toward Ymir... considering other Norse-looking references in the ToC... Earth built from the body of the dead father of Giants... blood the oceans, bones the mountains... and the eyebrows made Midgard, lol. Here Imir is in its corpse-state, waiting to be fashioned into an earth?

And I like the bit at the end, saying it should have been Pandora. Well, of course there's the Greek myth with the box, but hey, Avatar just came out with that new movie so who knows which Pandora she meant? LOL

I also like seeing a crew that is not dysfunctional and antagonistic--even mildly like Disra & co--so far, at least. It's kind of nice to see a crew friendly and working together without jockeying...for now. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

The rest of the Parts in Children of Memory also seem to be references to classical poems--especially elegies, mixed in with (most likely) Norse Mythology/Poetic Edda references... maybe even specifically Wagner's Ring of the Nibelung Saga...

Part 2: "To Darkness and To Me" is a famous line from Thomas Gray's "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard" in 1751--the specific lines leading up to it:(view spoiler)[
The curfew tolls the knell of parting day,
The lowing herd wind slowly o'er the lea,
The ploughman homeward plods his weary way,
And leaves the world to darkness and to me. (hide spoiler)]
For the full poem see (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...)

Part 3: "The World Tree"--maybe not a poem in itself, but if a reference to Yggdrasil, then Odin hung himself on the World Tree in search of the mead of poetry... could also tie in to Ymir/Imir...

Part 4: "Mere Anarchy is Loosed" is from the poem "The Second Coming" by William Butler Yates, using Christian imagery of the Apocalypse to describe post-war Europe. Here are the lines: (view spoiler)[
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. (hide spoiler)]
For the full poem, see (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...)

Part 5: The Ravenssaga again with the Norse imagery. Not only are Ravens sacred to Odin, with his twin ravens Huginn (thought) and Muginn (memory *wink*) serving as eyes and spies for him, but then there's the "saga"--I don't know why, but Ravenssaga makes me think especially of the Volsunga Saga, upon which Wagner's Ring Cycle was based... and of course the Poetic Eddas are serious classical poetry too... no specific "Raven Saga" in Norse records, but well, we know there's a Corvid race out there too so...

Part 6: "A World in a Grain of Sand" is from "The Auguries of Innocence" by William Blake, c. 1803/1863. The poem juxtaposes images of innocence with that of evil and corruption. Reference lines: (view spoiler)[
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour

A Robin Red breast in a Cage
Puts all Heaven in a Rage
A Dove house filld with Doves & Pigeons
Shudders Hell thr' all its regions...
(hide spoiler)] You can read the full poem here (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...)

Part 7 "Age Shall Not Weary Them" is a line from Laurence Binyon's "For the Fallen" c. 1914. Originally composed in honor of the casualties of the British Expeditionary Force during the Battle of Mons in WWI, it has been since claimed as a eulogy for all battle-lost, and the "Ode of Remembrance" read on (WWI) Remembrance Day services is specifically the 4th stanza of the poem, from which the section title was taken: (view spoiler)[
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
(hide spoiler)] You can read the whole poem here: (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...)

Part 8: "Look Upon My Works, Ye Mighty" is from Percy Bysshe Shelly's "Ozymandias" first published in 1818. It was inspired when the British Museum acquired the upper portion of a 13C BCE statue of Ramses II (aka Ozymadias)--though Percy wrote the poem before the statue was actually delivered, and it is postulated that he never actually saw the statue itself... the poem is short enough that here is the whole thing: (view spoiler)[
I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.” (hide spoiler)]

Part 9: "Infinity in the Palm of Your Hand"--see "Auguries of Innocence" above in Part 6--this is the 3rd line in the same poem!

Part 10: "Twilight of the Gods" is a common name for Ragnarok in Norse mythology--also the name of the last 4 operas making up Wagner's Ring Cycle.

Part 11: "The Ferryman"--this could be so many things... reference to Charon in Greek Mythology. Reference to the Lay of Harbard from the Poetic Edda, where Thor loses a battle of wits to a ferryman (who might be Odin in disguise)--interesting analysis about that here: (https://thepostgradchronicles.org/201...) which makes me inclined to think the latter... it could also be a simple reference to Death...

Part 12: "Nor the Years Condemn"--again with a repeat poem! This is the 3rd line from the 4th stanza of "For the Fallen"--see Part 7 above.

Overall, this is giving me a sense of an eulogy for earth... which goes with "Children of Memory"

I hope y'all found this interesting! I'm lookin forward to delving in to the rest of the book and see how it all pans out...

[Tonari no Emily]

Thanks for all the references! I always appreciate your deep-dives!

[Choko]

Best book I have read in a long time, at least in this genre!!!! I will come back to comment after the super bowl. GO CHIEFS!

[Nirkatze]

Jumping in to Children of Memory Part 2: "To Darkness and To Me"

Looking a little closer at Thomas Gray's "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard" (view spoiler)[The poem starts with the poet sitting and watching the land descend into darkness, as others in the land (both two legged, four legged, and winged) wend homewards--then he turns his thoughts to the forefathers buried beneath the trees--who will never wake again... some lines that stuck with me:

Oft did the harvest to their sickle yield,
Their furrow oft the stubborn glebe has broke;
How jocund did they drive their team afield!
How bow'd the woods beneath their sturdy stroke!

This makes me think of how the Ark Ships view the Ancients--at least this current batch of Ark Shippers--almost worshipful of their technology in their hope. But the poem carries on...

The paths of glory lead but to the grave.
As it did for the people of Earth. The poem goes on to speak of how those long dead might have been towering geniuses, great generals, or eloquent politicians....

Perhaps in this neglected spot is laid
Some heart once pregnant with celestial fire;
Hands, that the rod of empire might have sway'd,
Or wak'd to ecstasy the living lyre.

But that they are dead now, no art or technology can bring them back or change it, and with their death anything that they might have been is now dust. Anything they might have known is now dust. Anything they might have done is now dust.

But it isn't only because they are dead--but also, because they chose to live out this life in the quiet countryside, "Far from the Madding Crowd..."

Far from the madding crowd's ignoble strife,
Their sober wishes never learn'd to stray;
Along the cool sequester'd vale of life
They kept the noiseless tenor of their way.

Not sure if that applies to our Story at all, but it is a nice twist in the poem... though it could be looked at as these Ark folk, deprived of the civilization to build on may be lost to obscurity... and on the new planet Imir, they could be lost to memory, and the Ancients lost to memory, as they focus on the pure act of survival... but there may be some, like the poet, unable to settle in to their new life because they still wish for something further... (hide spoiler)]

I rather like that this is getting me to read some poetry--I don't think I've really read poetry since high school, though I did recognize most of those Section titles as lines from famous bits...

Okay, actually jumping in to the story now.

2.1 Liff (view spoiler)[I can see Liff being like the poet, not quite fitting in in society, and her Grandfather being one of the forefathers in the graves--also not fitting in, maybe a genius, but restricted by his local situation...

The Darkness quote can also be literal, as dark descends on the land going into winter--and on a world with a 15 hour day, darkness would come swiftly... The way that Liff has trouble sleeping makes me think of the The Long Earth series--there's one earth where the colonists are having trouble sleeping, and they discover it's because the earth's rotation is increasing incrementally every day, decreasing dark time and sleep time...

We've had some history in the last ... century maybe? Seccers war--what would Seccers stand for? Section? I have to wonder if they were able to wake up all the cargo, or if some might still be in orbit, waiting for space to open up... Something bad happened to cause the Remembrance too... And possibly another people on the world--Gethli and Gothi... did they just turn into Ravens?

The almost stream-of-consciousness writing is interesting too, gives a very childlike feel to the narration. And it's quite jarring to count years on local time--26! But that is not quite 13 in Earth years. Old yet not old.

And the whole quest for the Witch in the woods, and the semi-shunning of Miranda and her fixer friend (another Fabian!!)... people have become very insular and suspicious since Landfall... it actually reminds me of the Clans on the Gil in book 1...

Speaking of Miranda--the name choice makes me think of the Tempest, which seems appropriate for this world. Perhaps Fabian is her Caliban?

The poem read at Remembrance has a lot in common with "For the Fallen"--which gives the line for Part 7--the bit "They shall not grow old, as we grow old" is direct from it, but the rest is not, though the themes are the same. "For the Fallen" actually has more star imagery... I wonder if this means that Part 7 will explain the backstory of the colony?

I just liked this quote: "Proper education doesn't answer questions, it just teaches you how to ask them."

I tried to find a story about a girl lost in the woods and saved by a fox... found several stories of children and foxes, but noting quite so specific. Little Fox in the Forest Gon. the Fox　ごんぎつね and a Native (Yupik, maybe?) story of a little girl and a fox watching the northern lights together.... (hide spoiler)]

@Barry--just read your Part I & 2.1 notes--totally getting the Village vibes!

2.2 (view spoiler)[Ah, I'm glad I'm not the only one trying to figure out the etymology behind "Seccers"!

Really interesting seeing the insular mindset from an outside perspective here--and having it analyzed. I didn't really think about, in Liff's chapter, how she has these questions about things like the Remembrance, but no one answers her either...

Miranda and Fabian must be from one of the Portiid/Octopode/Corvid ships, there to make first contact! That would jive with Gethli & Gothi being Corvids... and that comment on Fabian and using human hands... have they discovered a way to transfer consciousness from one flesh to another? With the Many/Interlocuter assistance, it seems possible! Fabian born a Portiid, now in a human body? Or maybe Fabian is an Interlocuter? Fabian's "sister" seems like a Portia. (next paragraph) HAH She IS a Portia! Hah! So cool! And there's a Paul too! What is this "unruly horde"? His Reach, maybe? Did they have to give separate bodies to each one?

But why this method of infiltrating before contact? I wonder if they've been burned by the front door method? Teacher Miranda's emphasis on never never never killing a spider takes a whole 'nother meaning now...

So the spaceship is still up there... I'm still wondering if more Cargo is waiting too... or maybe the spaceship is the Witch? Maybe HH didn't "die" 20 years ago, but instead returned to the ship to go to sleep again? I'm wondering what the epiphany Miranda had about grandfathers not being grandfathers was...

I also just have to love that they have sake. Not beer. Not wine. Not vodka. Sake. So they must be growing rice then! Makes me wonder about what kinds of crops do well in stormy environments... rice must do, considering how E. Asia has Typhoon season...

Another quote I like: "Entropy is the landlord whose rent always gets paid." Makes me think of "kipple" in Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?... (hide spoiler)]

@Choko--just read your 2.2 notes! I have ALL THE SAME QUESTIONS! And I wasn't thinking of the Cargo when the Remembrance poem came up, but I really like your take...

2.3 Gethli/Gothi (view spoiler)[totally crows! SHINY! Super fun having just read Illuminations. I love that the distractable SHINY nature of crows is molded into a distraction into science... I bet they get along with Fabian... but from Miranda's chapter it seems that they weren't supposed to be there--are they from another ship? Or have the Portiid alliance met the Corvids yet? I'd assume they must've, because I feel like the whole body mutability thing must be a feature of the new Nod alliance...

Had not heard the term "mission creep" before--"a gradual shift in objectives during the course of a military campaign, often resulting in an unplanned long-term commitment." But I like! LOL

Hmm really interesting twist here! It sounds like Gethli, Gothi, and The Witch (maybe an Interlocutor or a Human? Oh! Or a Kern!) are from a different group than Miranda--maybe Miranda & co were sent on a deep infiltration mission, and Gethli & co were sent to contact them, but somehow got stranded? There must be something big going on Outside too... The "them" G&G are looking for must be Miranda & co...

Also thinking of Gethli & Gothi more as Ravens than Crows now--Ravens mate for life, and tend to travel in pairs, while Crows flock... but both like shinies. (hide spoiler)]

Oooh, I'm loving this one so far! I love (view spoiler)[seeing our Portiid alliance stretching out in the universe and finding more people--just like the prologue/recap said... and I love that there are so much questions to uncover! (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Choko wrote: "Best book I have read in a long time, at least in this genre!!!! I will come back to comment after the super bowl. GO CHIEFS!"

Good luck to your Chiefs, Choko!

[Nirkatze]

Tonari no Emily wrote: "Thanks for all the references! I always appreciate your deep-dives!"

Yay! happy to be of service.

[Nirkatze]

On to Children of Memory, Part 3: The World Tree. No poems to unpack here...

Part 3 Miranda (view spoiler)[I love that we're getting another recap in story-style, like the one Portia & Helen were working on...

OMG I love that the We is narrating this part! "Full disclosure... We lacked... perspective" oops! Someone else above said that too, but I can't find it... I love how the Nodian consciousness has evolved from that, and now some individuals "gift" their consciousness to it, and some see it as "backing up" themselves--a more sure way than uploading like Kern. More efficient memory storage too.

I also love seeing how the technology from all species is working together--the drive of the Octopodes, the silk-ship of the Portiids, the tech of the Humans, the interpretations of the We, and of course Kern, the ghost in the shell operating system.

Miranda, as a We, seems to be suffering some of the alienation on a crew level that she is also suffering in the town.. and that Liff suffers...

Heh. The world is named Rourke. That made me giggle a little and imagine that Roarke from the In Death series had a resort there...

The author uses "for a given value of XX" a lot... counted four times so far.

The World Tree is good symbolism for the We--stretching everywhere and seeing everything... Also, how Odin sacrificed himself for wisdom, hanging on an ash tree--probably Yggdrasil--can also be connected to how individuals can "sacrifice" themselves--or "gift" themselves--to the We... not necessarily a sacrifice anymore, it seems.

I love the comparison of Kern and the We. They both spread out like branches of a tree--but Kern is always Kern and nothing else, a very forceful I--while the We has to work hard to pretend to be an I, and is always a We. Furthermore, Kern doesn't trust herself, and others don't trust the We. Both Kern and the We have made mistakes of epic proportions, and had to live with them. Body-snatcher and Kidnapper.

And I love that the Norse imagery chapters seems to coincide with the Corvids' introduction.... how will their thought process differ from the Portiid's and the Paul's? the Corvids are open and unworried about security... they copy exactly, are easily distracted, but follow the many paths to their end goal, eventually. But they don't seem to innovate, or to have grown beyond what was already existent... just to continue to copy perfectly... stagnant? I imagine they probably have little concept of private property either... maybe they can't innovate, but they can deconstruct and reconstruct in a different way, to conform to their needs... but they need a schematic first... very interesting!

I love that the crew of the Skipper lets a pair of Corvids come aboard (Gethli & Gothi!)--it is giving me very Star Trek vibes again, taking on new crew from new worlds! (hide spoiler)]

@Barry--re: Message 170--I also keep getting G&G mixed up! (view spoiler)[but they're definitely filling very different roles in their relationship. And I love how you brought back Going on an Adventure! (hide spoiler)]

@Franziska--re: Message 175--I really love the same thing! (view spoiler)[How Tchaikovsky has managed to create such TOTALLY DIFFERENT not only cultures but pure CONSCIOUSNESSES from different species! So cool!! And I'm also very curious about that signal... (hide spoiler)]

And I so bow down to all of our FBR folks who are reading books in non-first languages! Y'all rock! I feel like I should read more in my second & third languages, but I rarely have the energy to do so... and I'm just not that good at them.

@Choko--re: Message 211--I really love your comparison to the Octopuses! (view spoiler)[I didn't even think of that, but it is so true! And Miranda even compares the Corvids to the Reach... I totally would feel that freaking-out-ness too, if they came on to the ship and started ripping things apart... thank goodness for Kern and neverending backups!

And I really love how the We have evolved... by LITERALLY walking miles in everyone's shoes, and having the experience of being afraid of themselves, they have become the most empathic creatures out there... (hide spoiler)]

Here's a question for y'all--if given the opportunity, would you gift yourselves to the We? I think I would... but I'd want to wait until I had more life experiences, so that I had something more to gift...

[Tonari no Emily]

I don't know if I would want to subject the world to more copies of me lmao
But... maybe. Creepy to think about!

[Nirkatze]

Tonari no Emily wrote: "I don't know if I would want to subject the world to more copies of me lmao
But... maybe. Creepy to think about!"

But you'd get to GO ON AN ADVENTURE!

Actually that makes me wonder--if the We met up with it's donor, could it exchange memories backwards too? Like, if I "gifted" my copy to the We, and it went out and adventured, then I ran into it again later, could I get a set of "my" experiences with it? Cuz that would be cool. Though it also gives me Total Recall vibes.

[Nirkatze]

Children of Memory Part 4: "Mere Anarchy is Loosed"

Thoughts on the poem: (view spoiler)[
Opening lines:
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Perhaps the crew of the Skipper being out of touch with their leader? Could Bianca be the Witch then, if not Kern? Suggests a battle, a new war--do the Seccers show up? "Innocence drowned" something happens to Liff?--the innocence of the colonists shattered with the knowledge of the stars? Lacking conviction v. passionate intensity--the boy soldiers who don't want to kill, villagers who aren't too suspicious v. zealots and witch-burners...

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

I'm not familiar with the Biblical imagery here, but I'm assuming the "beast" is the antichrist? I wonder if this might be more literal here--some revelation of the Skipper's crew's real bodies striking a panic? Or again... these mysterious "Seccer"?
(hide spoiler)]

4.1 Liff the innocence... (view spoiler)[I like how Liff notices the beards, and how that is an epiphany moment almost, that it is not safe to be different...

Uncle Molder sounds like one of these "full of passionate integrity."

The Watchers... people from the ship? Is the Remembrance connected to the Cargo--to abandoning them to their fate in space?

Child woken screaming about a spider as big as your head... I bet that's Bianca. Oh! Maybe the Skipper crash landed, and the crew all got stranded separate? That could be while Gothi & Gethli are searching for others... and then how the Witch turns animals into people--like Fabian & Portia & Paul! Vote is on Witch being Kern + ship functions... I can't imagine other villagers have actually been to see the Witch though, so I wonder where the stories come from? Or if there were always stories, and G&G just stole the terminology from their watching?

The Ravens being able to swap bodies makes me think of Written in Red and the Crowguard...

More speculation on Seccer--Secessionist. Second Colony. My thoughts: Security, Section, Second Wave, S.E.C. something... Space... (hide spoiler)]

@Emily--re: Message 172--Many same questions and thoughts... (view spoiler)[I'm in the same boat as far as the Watchers are concerned... but I really want to know what Seccers stands for. How long since Landfall... Holt supposedly "died" 20 (10) years ago... and the folks from the Gil lived for about 150 years... so it could have been about 100 years or more... probably not more than that, but potentially less. Unless Holt came and went from stasis on occasion. And the signal hasn't come up again yet!

I really like these stories that start with a mystery in the beginning so you have two timelines--one working toward the mystery from the past, and one working towards a solution in the future--all at the same time. (hide spoiler)]

4.2 Miranda (view spoiler)[Fabian describes the piling up problems in Landfall as a "cascade"--which is also how the Expanse series described a similar disaster of resources...

Portia returning to "the Farm"--and Miranda starting to wonder what is real, just like Liff is wondering what is real and what is dream... connected?

It is a true dilemma--and the Star Trek dilemma too at that--do you stand by and let science and evolution take its course? Do you interfere and make the people dependent on you, susceptible to exploitation and crush whatever genius they might have developed on their own? Isn't that the Star Trek Prime Directive--do not interfere? I like Miranda's brainstorming...

Tipping the scales... Anarchy isn't loosed quite yet. (hide spoiler)]

4.3 Liff (view spoiler)[Gothi keeps the records... Gethli investigates... She looks forward, he looks back... I wonder if they are brother and sister, or a mated pair?

Oh hmm... seems like the Witch is not Kern, but instead a local... or at least someone from the Enkidu. Maybe not a Landfaller, maybe a first gen person? Even the classicist herself? Okay, I take that back--the Witch's rant about her history is definitely Kern-like. In a flesh envelope. That must be a pain for her.

Oh, another story with crows that become human--Tamora Pierce's Trickster duology... (hide spoiler)]

4.4 Miranda (view spoiler)[Prime Directive conversation continues... so interesting to see the viewpoints of two different societies--two different species--and driven by the mistakes and successes of those species. Nodians know the dangers of making everything the same--and Portiids know the successes from assimilation... and the danger of leaving people as Other.

It's an interesting conversation, which reminds me a bit of the science for measuring sub-atomic particles--in order to measure them, you end up changing them, because the very act of measurement changes them...

Oh goodness, to hang them from the First Tree like Odin from the Ash.... but out of ignorance, not in search of knowledge... a sacrifice they don't own... (hide spoiler)]

4.5 Liff As the action ramps up, the chapters keep getting shorter and shorter. Very effective!

@Iain, re: Message 191--(view spoiler)[I didn't even think of it being a simulation...that would be interesting, but how to get Liff into it too? I am definitely hoping they explain the whole body-changing bit though... (hide spoiler)]

4.6 Gethli/Gothi (view spoiler)[I like this exchange:

We are the eye with which the universe beholds itself.
What?
Poetry.

And I wonder if that isn't part of what Tchaikovsky is trying to get at, using poems for section references...
And I find it interesting that G&G seem to be aware of their parroting limitations...
Good question. WOULD they pass the Turing test?

"...like two blind men looting a bazaar for their own portraits" is from Rozencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead. (hide spoiler)]

@Choko--re: Message 212--LOL I wasn't even thinking that(view spoiler)[ they could be dead... with the description of Paul's changing body, I thought they must be reverting to their original forms somehow... and I tend not to believe a death unless it happens at the beginning or middle of a chapter. End-chapter deaths are too suspect.

Plus... none of them are actually human... we're not sure how the bodies work... but with the crows able to shift back and forth, that makes it seem like they aren't tied to human physiology, and none of what they actually are could be killed in such a way, by hanging... Portiids & Paul too light, wrongly shaped heads/necks and things not working that way, and I'm not sure if the We even can be killed by anything less than immolation...

Still going to be quite a shock to the locals. Prime Directive broken. (hide spoiler)]

OH! OMG! The Ravens! 4.6 epiphany (view spoiler)[They are totally in Huginn/Muginn pairs! Thought and Memory! One of them is capable of forward thought, the other, only capable of memory!! "That's not my job!" Literally!! (hide spoiler)]

@Barry, re: Message 170--real life ravens mate for life, and are generally found in pairs...but I don't believe they are found in sibling-pairs.... crows live in flocks, but also mate for life. One way to tell if you're looking at Ravens or Crows--if here's two, it's Ravens, if there's more, Crows...

[Choko]

I would do it right away! Not even a thought! I wish they were real right now and I could "gift" myself to them... I would also like to see how the We as Me progresses in life. It would be absolutely amazing!

[Choko]

About the Seccers... I thought it was explained pretty early in the book, but it is (view spoiler)[ a word derivative of "those who came second" from the ship down to the planet and have supposedly created a Second colony "... It is what the colonists speculate, nothing is proven... (hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

OMG, I am so excited for you to find everything out! I am behind on a bunch of my BRs, but I re-read from Ch. 11 today. I had to. It is absolutely brilliant!!! I actually got the actual books X 3, so I can give as gifts the extra 2 to people who I believe will really appreciate this thinking...

Love reading all of your notes, because it makes me go through it again!!!

[Nirkatze]

#3 Children of Memory Part 5 The Ravenssaga!

(view spoiler)[The way the first chapter starts, with Miranda the We pulling herself together from her primordial sludge, I think is supposed to be a subtle hint, when combined with the lines from the last episode of Liff's horror at seeing what had happened to Miranda, that they didn't die... instead, their flesh envelopes reverting to their base forms....

The Ravens-story--it seems like they got as far as they did without any upllift virus--or am I wrong? They were taking electronics apart and turning on the heat without any serious adjustments outside of a corvid genetic cocktail. Kern's thoughts seem to confirm this... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

I am so tempted by your Seccer spoiler tag Choko, but I want to see it unveil itself in the book first!

I'm super behind on all my BRs too... I've barely made it to the 5th of the month now... still wrapping up ones from the 1st and earlier... Gah!

I did the same thing with this trilogy--I had three copies, and have been giving them away...

[Tonari no Emily]

I really need to get myself some physical copies of this series.. I loved the first, liked the second, and the third is *chef's kiss* :D

[Nirkatze]

Children of Memory Part 6: The World in a Grain of Sand

Thoughts on the poem: (view spoiler)[whew that poem is a long one. And rather tedious, to my opinion... I wish it was broken up into stanzas or sections. It seems to move from looking at nature, to comparing nature and the innocence of beasts to the evil of man, giving warnings of "don't do this to this nice innocent animal or you will go to hell" and then moving on to babies and war...

So it could be referencing the innocence of Liff as contrasted with the self-serving populism of her uncle and the other insular villagers--or could be looking at the Alliance creatures as a quality of innocent for not being human... and for embarking on this survey with good intentions...

If we look at the exact quote itself though, a World in a Grain of Sand--it could also be a reference directly to the Interlocutor, since that is what they are--a world of knowledge in sub-atomic servers. (hide spoiler)]

6.1 Liff (view spoiler)[Okay, so this is interesting. This seems to be a memory that directly contradicts what Liff has been told so far--of her Grandpa Heorest and Granma Esi, no less than a year ago, and the shuttle going up and down... definitely something funky and memory-wise going on here. Getting the Harrow references now. There is definitely food for the simulation theory. Fun!!

Another theory... could Liff be a clone? With memories from her previous instances... they did say there are a lot of recycled names... is this an earlier version of Liff?

Or has something in the chemistry of the world meant that they have a form of genetic memory now, like the Portiid's understandings?

Or is this like the movie Memento, but en masse, with people having a limited scope of memory? This book is called "Children of Memory" so how does that fit into the puzzle?

So interesting! The utopia promise of this iteration, contrasted with the imminent cascade of the earlier one, squashing beetles--is this the side of innocence, and the other the side of evil? Also, with the crows circling in the sky ahead, something is clearly up. The timeline for the Enkidu's arrival must be much shorter than we thought... maybe even the bare 26 turns of Liff's life... well, more, since she's the first gen of first genners, so perhaps 30 years, 60 turns, or less?

Wondering again about the poem--this same poem is used for Part 9, with the line being "An Infinity in the Palm of Your Hand"--multiple possible iterations? Black Holes? (hide spoiler)] Oooh, things just got frickin exciting!

6.2 Miranda (view spoiler)[Okay, before I even get in to the chapter, I am remembering that random line earlier, when Portia said she needed to get back to the farm, and Miranda was like--there is no farm... um...

Something on the planet has to be messing with their memory. Maybe like...oh gosh, I know there has to be horror movies or whatnot that have something like this but I can't think of the top of my head... not Stepford Wives, that's aliens, or body snatchers...

Something is altering their memory, and making them insular... like how the Corvids' planet was fighting back against terraforming, maybe this planet also has a method of fighting? I keep coming back to the Matrix analogy.

Then the question is... is this then, or now? Is this same, or different? Miranda is still Miranda here--not brainwashed into thinking she's a local, at least...

Time frame is the same as the lynching though, yes? That was also harvest time... when all hands were needed. And it can't be a previous turning, because Liff was 26 in both. But this iteration both has the Key Crew alive and around, not 20 turns dead, and seems to lack the toxic insularity.

More on memory--giving up their old memories of Earth, living on Imir...

Ah, finally, the signal again. They went off in search of it. The "expedition."

And the Day of Remembrance. For leaving the Cargo behind to die...

"A fear of Others out there... But I'm sure it won't come to anything."--this rings the same as the Utopia quote in 6.1. A definite note of "wrong", of "this isn't what happened"--or is it?

Miranda's description of her memory hanging there, as if she's been dreaming, is the same as how Liff describes her different sensations... (hide spoiler)]

@Emily--re: Message 174 & 176!!! Aaaah! So many same thoughts!! (view spoiler)[The colonists must have gotten there first, and have been there long enough for Liff to be the 2nd generation born on the planet... Miranda & co are still "new"... and didn't even Kern say, in the Ravenssaga chapters, that they were picking up a signal from the planet? The signal seems a good guess for the culprit, since it seems it would have to be something that (maybe?) can also mess up Kern... or perhaps she isn't messed up, but is trying to work around it? I wonder if the Corvids, with their split thought/memory dyad existence, will be able to crack the puzzle? (hide spoiler)]

6.3 Liff (view spoiler)[More inconsistencies--this is the first time they've been able to make Sake, yet in the first Liff chapters, Sake is spoken of as if it is a given...

It also makes it sound like Liff is the only person in her generation--so where are the other children? And the previous chapter talked of Miranda someday being able to become a full-time teacher... but the Liff wouldn't be the same age, yes? It could be that there are other children her age, but not born to children born on Imir... but born to Earthborn folk... but the timing isn't quite right. Liff didn't sound like the oldest child...

No Uncle around yet. No mention of trees--though there is mention of the "first timber." Pine trees take 25-30 years to reach harvesting growth.

Now it makes it sound like Holt had contact with Kern... Maybe... if he's talking of the same Witch... But this does make it sound like Kern & co might have been there before the colonists... Chicken and Egg? Whose signal enticed whom? Both sensed signals from the planet upon arrival...

I love the way that Liff thinks of the Witch and describing Kern. ...but Liff looks at her and knows she’s as old as the hills she’s come down from, and has done terrible things, and has great power, yet can be bound by the simplest of words and rituals if you only know them. There are many words for that, but one of them is Witch. None of that is untrue.

Kern showing up at the door, saying she has to work with Liff... leaning more towards Matrix-esque feelings... (hide spoiler)]

@Emily re: Message 177--same thoughts AGAIN!

6.4 Gothi/Gethli (view spoiler)[Matrix + Groundhog Day. But what is setting the reset button? And for how long? And when? How big of a loop?

If it is a Matrix-esque thingy--that would also explain the whole everyone-and-their-sister having Human flesh sacks. And there being no need for conservation of mass when G&G do their switcheroo.

Are Liff & Co even on the planet? Miranda remembers entering the Enkidu... but does she remember coming down to the planet? her bits after that were speculative... Maybe this is just a simulation (again, Matrix) that is being played for the people left behind on the ship, to give them a life before they die in their eternal slumber, because the real colonists couldn't come back for them? Perhaps they went in to the simulation to try to wake & save folks....?

"It’s like I’ve been living in the shadow of things forever, big things that nobody speaks about." Village vibes again.

And circling back to the quote again--a World in a Grain of Sand... that definitely sounds like a Matrix-y thing after all this... (hide spoiler)]

@Emily, re: Message 178--(view spoiler)[Interesting idea about a Nodan simulation... but wouldn't that violate the We's code about getting permission first? (hide spoiler)]

Enjoyed reading everyone's explosion of confusion thoughts on Part 6!

[Nirkatze]

Children of Memory Part 7: Age Shall Not Weary Them

Thoughts on the Poem--(view spoiler)[Since this stanza of the poem is used in ceremonies of Remembrance, especially for war dead, I'm hoping this means we'll find out what happened with the Cargo on the Enkidu now... I like how the line from this poem both directly correlates with how they do not age in cryo, but also is a poem about remembering the dead, and thus twinges notes of that ceremony in the earlier chapters, the one that neither Liff nor Miranda knew anything about, save that people looked at the sky with guilt... (hide spoiler)]

7.1 (view spoiler)[Interesting! This chapter seems to confirm both the existence of a planetside community, and that it matches the structure in Liff's chapters. AND that Miranda & co don't go to the planet (well, maybe yet), but that they are the team that head over to the Enkidu. Still on track for Matrix + Groundhog Day... (hide spoiler)]

7.2 (view spoiler)[Yikes... seems like Miranda was experiencing Meshner's old memories... when they first met the We...

LOL I love this bit: She needed to show them their struggles had been seen and appreciated. And then, if she was really lucky, she could persuade one of them to donate their mindset to her, and would be able to bask in the sunlight of her own appreciation, come full circle back to her. That is a unique benefit (and urge) of being the We... but also, akin to the urge of a child to feel the praise of its parent... who will praise Miranda, if not her We? And if she did get praise, would she not want to experience it from both sides?

Hmm... is it more than just people in storage, dreaming away? Were they... uploaded? The mystery continues... (hide spoiler)]

7.3 (view spoiler)[And back on the Skipper so if there's some sort of simulation, it's not to do with the Enkidu, or if it is, it's going to be a weirdly roundabout way... but finally, we're back to the signal from the beginning... probable culprit... (hide spoiler)]

[Franziska (tintenklexxe)]

I finished Children of Memory and I loved it!

(view spoiler)[
I really didn't expect the whole settlement and people to never have existed and just be a simulation!
The discussion about sentience, and especially the Corvids, were immensely interesting.

There has to be a book four, this can't be the end to the series?
(hide spoiler)]

[Choko]

Franziska, same here! And the discussion about sentience happened in Ch. 11-12, and I re-read that part right away, it was so awesome!!! Just perfect! And the Corvids thoughts on the subject were priceless:)))

[Tonari no Emily]

Franziska, I'm pretty sure there will be more in this series. This definitely didn't feel like an ending!

[Mel]

So I've been completely distracted by one thing or another, but I saw this meme about octopus lifespans, which reminded me I have to get back to Children of Ruin.

(view spoiler)[
(hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Haha, so I only got a couple chapters in where we are introduced to the tanks of octopi. And plans to terraform another planet. And unbidden came into my head this smarmy voice:

"Nice terraformed planet you got there. Sure would be a shame if someone were to... seed it with intelligent life?" 😎

And it's probably because I've been on way too many fan pages shitposting Valentine's Day memes with cheesy pick-up lines, because then that turned into:

"Nice fertile ground you got there. Care for me to... seed it with intelligent life?" 😏

Please tell me that pickup line works for all three books. I have the urge to make cheesy valentines now, even though the day has passed...

Me: *gives valentine*
Them: *scoffs* You said intelligent life? I don't think you qualify.

[Choko]

Hahaha!!!!! Perfect!

[Nirkatze]

Well, I finished Children of Memory--sadly was during workweek, so didn't have the brain cells to comment on each section as it went on... but I did love all the poetry, light Norse references, and the insights and hints it gave into the story itself... (view spoiler)[I was starting to think by section 8 that maybe Liff wasn't real, but a creation of the Signal, but I too did not forsee that the whole of the settlement was just a dream of the machine, and that the shuttle crashed on entry...

I feel like when Kern confronted Miranda about the fact that she had never landed either, and that her shuttle had crashed and she had consumed her own flesh in the shock, that that should have been a hint--if Miranda's ship, with more advanced tech, had crashed, what chance did Holt & co have? (hide spoiler)]

My favorite is still book 1, I think, but I liked this as much as book 2, and I am still positively tickled by the Huginn/Muginn aspect of the crows. And the thoughts on sentience, and what is sentience are very nice and chewy.

Also laughing at Mel's pick-up lines. Worst pick up line I remember is "Do you have any Irish in you? No? Would you like some?"

Definitely hoping that there are more books, and that they go in search of the (view spoiler)[civilization that left the signal behind like a plinth from Ozymandias... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Opening up everyone's spoiler tags for Children of Memory and really loving the end thoughts and insights, reminding me of a few scenes in particular I loved...

(view spoiler)[Pretty much all of Miranda's inner thoughts and struggles--and then that moment when Kern more or less says "it's not all about you, idiot," and makes her stop taking blame for everything... such a human moment there... we're all liable to blame ourselves for things that are not our fault...

Miranda meeting her ur-Miranda face to face, and being told that she was proud of her, that we-Miranda was everything ur-Miranda wished she could be, but wouldn't have acted on... awww I just wanted to give her a great big hug. Both of them.

The debates on what qualifies as real (in addition to the conversations on sentience) especially when Miranda faces Kern and is like "you and me, of all people, should not be pointing fingers here..." (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

I think I forgot to mention the Hitchhiker’s Guide vibes I got (view spoiler)[from the fact that all that was left of Earth was a simulation of an alien entity (hide spoiler)]

[Ryan]

Some questions
(view spoiler)[The alien machine simulates Miranda because she went down there. What about Portia, Bianca, Paul, Fabian? Are they taken from Miranda's mind?

In 8.1, it is implied the Witch's emotions are affecting the weather, making it stormier. Is this the case? If so, why?

In Chapter 12, a smaller version of Kern and Miranda are quarantined from the larger ship. Why?

I had trouble interpreting the last paragraph of the book: "Now Liff is leaving, but before she goes she wants to say goodbye. And, within that primordial darkness, eyes open and something approaches."
What is this something, what is happening?

Finally, the characters don't really speculate about the purpose of the alien machine. Your thoughts? My best guess is bored aliens looking for entertainment, but that's a weak guess. (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Ryan wrote: "Some questions
The alien machine simulates Miranda because she went down there. What about Portia, Bianca, Paul, Fabian? Are they taken from Miranda's mind?

In 8.1, it is implied the Witch's emoti..."

It's been months since I read this, so I don't have all the answers, but (view spoiler)[I think alot of it comes down to the fact that it's the Miranda made by These of We and the ArtiFabian AI computer intelligence, making it easy for the simulation to translate and incorporate her... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Dittoing Iain--my memory (heh) is pretty fuzzy but vague thoughts--

(view spoiler)[I can't remember if Portia & co actually went down (and crashed) with Miranda or not. If they did, that instance of themselves would have died--and been incorporated into the machine--and new versions of them printed out on the main ship...but Miranda, with her These of We would have been the only one capable of actually surviving the crash, and thus became a living being integrated into the simulation.

If they didn't go down, and it was just Miranda in the shuttle that crashed, then they would have been constructs made from Miranda's memory & experiences, especially since she's been gifted personalities from each culture--much like Liff and her people. That's just my 2 cents!

Witch's emotions--I think this is reflective of how Kern's involvement in the simulation is backdoor, and not fully controlled by the alien tech... so she has the ability to affect things on more than a personal level?

Quarantine--the parent versions weren't sure whether the contact with the alien device would have infected them somehow--much like initial contact with the These of We.

Last Paragraph--my interpretation was that was a nice hook for the next book, and maybe those eyes in the darkness are the alien civilization that left the tech behind, that Miranda, Liff & etc are going to go searching for next... (hide spoiler)]

[Ryan]

Makes sense. Thanks for the speculations.

[Nirkatze]

So, I forced my in-person book club to read Children of Time this month, and I'm hosting next Friday.

BUT I have no idea what to cook!! Any ideas?? I can't remember any food... spider food? astronaut rations? Anyone have any ideas or specific memories?