Children of Memory (Children of Time #3) [January 30, 2023]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Ahh... all done... can't wait for somebody to catch up :D

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Dave wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Chapter 7.7/7.8: this is the point in the story where I really latched on to the difference a POV makes to a narrative... to the humans, this is pure alien horror... to the sp..."

With my more recent reads, I'd probably compare it to (view spoiler)[ Poor Man's Fight, for spaceship hull antics...

...and to Upgrade, for the solution of enhanced empathy (spoiler) (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Dave wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Chapter 6.1: OK... this is what I really love about this book... I'm just gonna keep saying that :D ..."

[spoilers removed]"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEpmo...

[Tonari no Emily]

Timelord Iain wrote: "Chapter 6.1: OK... this is what I really love about this book... I'm just gonna keep saying that :D "

The (view spoiler)[ants (hide spoiler)] bit was my favorite part of this one! I'm trying to cool it a bit with re-reads, but I want to read the third with everyone. Your spoilers are helping remember what happened. For a second I was really worried about being fuzzy on the details because I thought I had even read it this year, but it was in 2020.. so at least that's slightly a better sign for my memory lol

[Laura Tenfingers]

I am still so far down the holds list at the library that I'm not going to make it for the book 1 read. Boo

[Nirkatze]

Started Book 1 a few days ago but didn't have much time to read or post--then read most of it yesterday on a plane--loved it from the start, still really enjoying it. The opening setup, the intro to Portia & co, and the revelation from home are all keeping me hooked... (view spoiler)[I also find it ironic that all the things Kern is complaining about flawed humankind, she embodies as she tries to make more of it, and claims to be as god... (hide spoiler)]

I found this BBC youtube video that is very close to the first Portia chapter. I wanted to know what she'd look like, but this has more than just a picture! Very cool. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDtlv...)

[Nirkatze]

Timelord Iain wrote: "End of Pilgrimage: if you think Eliza Kern is crazy now, wait until she finds out..."

Hah! I have been looking forward to that moment. Just hit it, somewhere Part 6. (view spoiler)[I don't know if I'm happy that she didn't reject them and is actually starting to LISTEN, or sad that she didn't have more of an existential crisis about being WRONG. Then again, the crap could just be starting to hit the fan there... what I am upset about is that she is grooming the spiders for conflict with the human survivors, when she could have put them in contact with each other instead... let them talk to each other and figure something out! I'm dreading the inevitable conflict... (hide spoiler)]

@Iain--thank you for the background on Tchaikovsky and the cool pictures! I was wondering how he did all his research... I'm finding the sort of... "how sentient spiders would think" aspect to be the most fun, as you also mentioned... (view spoiler)[and I find it really interesting how reusing the same names in each new generation molds my concepts of the spider characters. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Timelord Iain wrote: "Scholar Bianca chapter (#1?): [spoilers removed]"

Yeah, that hit me too... (view spoiler)[and I was immediately thinking--but no! Don't do it! You'll leave yourselves genetically vulnerable!

I had just had a conversation with a friend about crops and fruit and vegetables, and darnit I can't remember what fruit/veggie we were talking about, but he said that this one specific fruit has 0 genetic variation--it's all essentially clones of itself, and one good disease could wipe out the entire worldwide population... and then I read that same line from Bianca... (hide spoiler)]

Dave wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "End of Chapter 3.4: ..."

Iain, looks like you are enjoying some Christmas Day reading. [spoilers removed]"

Oh cool Dave, I didn't even think of it in terms of the title!

[Nirkatze]

Timelord Iain wrote: "End of Part 3: ..."

Prisoner--(view spoiler)[I have to wonder how long she survived for? And I find it really depressing, that either she died fairly quickly, or if she survived for decades, then there was no progress made on communication. Even if it did seem that she picked up a bit on the palp signs, but that the visual aspect of the language is so much smaller than the vibrational that the spiders didn't even consider it... and that no one gave it more thought... makes me very worried for when the two halves of the story come together again...

The alternating chapters, between spiders and colonists, has been doing a very good job of seeding the coming dread... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Dave wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Chapter 6.1: OK... this is what I really love about this book... I'm just gonna keep saying that :D ..."

[spoilers removed]"

I'm really loving this too--the ingenuity--(view spoiler)[using biological and chemical elements to reach the same end-results that we reached through mechanical and electronic...

And even just the descriptions of technology are really fun too--like when... was it a Fabian?... noticed the electronic signals and compared them to something with metal--did they extrapolate radio and electricity from electroplating? Just so cool to see technology evolve on different paths... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

I also really like the dichotomy--the alternating chapters, each section being a new generation of Portia, and a new awakening for Dr. Holsten. I like seeing the clever structure of the story, and how it builds tension for the inevitable clash... I want to push on to the end, but it's getting a bit late so bed first.

[Nirkatze]

Timelord Iain wrote: "Chapter 7.7 to end of Part 7: this is the point in the story where I really latched on to the difference a POV makes to a narrative..."

FF8! That was the first videogame I ever played... now you're making me want to play it again...

I was both happily surprised and not entirely convinced by the climax wrapup... (view spoiler)[the book did a really good job of seeding the history of the spiders and having it lead up to the humianitarian--spidertarian?--mission. Also the little bit with Kern saying that she could not persuade them was a good hint--Kern didn't want anything to do with the lost dregs of humanity, so of course she would have been trying to persuade the spiders to just kill them all, while the spiders had done such a great job throughout their history of absorbing and utilizing whatever they came across, and an insatiable curiosity.

But the mechanism--using the nanovirus to instill a sense of "us" instead of "them" was just... a little too much. It felt like a deus ex machina. Even with the emphasis of connection when looking in eyes from the first Portia chapter, and the isolation and use of the nanovirus around part 3 or so... I guess it just didn't feel scientifically probable. More like magic than science. So I can take it with a grain of salt, but it didn't quite hit home for me. Maybe I needed some earlier examples of chemical alteration of emotions among sentient species--like rewriting prisoners brain chemistry or something, but it felt more like an A to B to Z jump than A to B to C.

Only complaint though. Still loved the book! (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

I also lied about going to bed first... well, I went to bed, then was up until 3am finishing the book. Whoops!

Loved it, looking forward to the next one, especially with the hints Iain keeps dropping about 2 & 3.

[Nirkatze]

Oh, I found this fun youtube video going through Children of Time and especially looking at the sensory divide between us and potential aliens would be:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSBjB...)

[Nirkatze]

Started book 2 Children of Ruin And by started, I mean I opened up and looked at the first few pages and was like, that's nice, and now I'm tired...

I think I'll take it slower on this one... try to savor instead of speed.

A couple of thoughts just from first page though--(view spoiler)[Oh, are we getting another arrogant scientist? Hello there. (hide spoiler)]

Octopi! (view spoiler)[Makes me think of an N.K. Jemisin short... let me see if I can find it... ah! "On the Banks of the River Lex" published in How Long 'til Black Future Month?. Gods of all religions are slowly fading away in a post-apocalyptic world with no sentient life left to worship them... and the god of Death helps an octopus mother take care of her children, then gives her Rest. And has an epiphany that changes the nature of the gods. (hide spoiler)]

[Katie]

I finished Children of Time today and wow, I could already tell from the first 100 or so pages that it would be a five star read. I loved the transition between the characters chapters, and thought that this one was excellently detailed.

The writing style and characters were amazing as well. It was really interesting seeing the evolution of spider kind and almost devolution of humans. I really enjoyed learning about the worlds and their conditions, and thought this book was so descriptive and really laid out the world building and history in a phenomenal way.

All the characters were so enjoyable to read through and the final chapter of the book left me hanging to keep reading this series.

I’m not usually a sci-fi reader but this book was amazing.

[Gaea]

I'm gonna have to put Children of Time down for now. It really is interesting and the world-building is truly amazing, but my mind just refuses to concentrate on it right now >.> I'm definitely picking it back up later though!

[Nirkatze]

Katie wrote: "I finished Children of Time today and wow, I could already tell from the first 100 or so pages that it would be a five star read. I loved the transition between the characters chapters, and thought..."

Same thoughts! I really loved the parallels/contradictions between the alternating chapters!

[Nirkatze]

Gaea wrote: "I'm gonna have to put Children of Time down for now. It really is interesting and the world-building is truly amazing, but my mind just refuses to concentrate on it right now >.> I'm definitely pic..."

I can relate, Gaea... sometimes life just doesn't let us focus... I hope you find something else you can relax with! And we'll all still be here when you do come back...

[Hailee]

I started reading book 1 last week but I'm only 40 pages in as I was focusing on other books. Not sure I'll be able to keep up with the general buddy read since most people have already finished but I'll be curious to read peoples comments as I get to that point in the books.

Children of Time
Genesis: (view spoiler)[ I did not like Kern at all, she has a seriously arrogant attitude and a giant ego that makes her unlikable. Curious to see if she survives her deep sleep and if she'll eventually be found alive or not. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Hailee wrote: "I started reading book 1 last week but I'm only 40 pages in as I was focusing on other books. Not sure I'll be able to keep up with the general buddy read since most people have already finished bu..."

I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts as you get there Hailee! I definitely agreed on Kern--(view spoiler)[right off the first page she radiated that particular brand of arrogance and intelligence that combines to willful blindness! Ugh! She needed to be slapped with some hard truths. (hide spoiler)]

That said, I am finding it really interesting comparing the opening of Children of Time with Children of Ruin.

I'm in Chapter 5 of Children of Ruin currently. (view spoiler)[Both feature scientists with a god complex--but I like how Senkovi's is more like... raising up a friend to play with, while Kern's was definitely to play creator and be worshipped. And I also like that Senkovi, as a contemporary and colleague of Kern, totally recognized that and said "that woman was her own Zeus, Odin, and Yahweh rolled into one" or something like that. Also in play is Baltiel, with his dreams of first contact. They are both more humble than Kern, but both stretch their Icarus wings toward greatness the same way.

Here at the start of Chapter 5, as Baltiel is preparing to lead his first landing party, I can't help but recall the ill-fated shuttle that first landed on Portia's World (definitely Portia's World, not Kern's World). What tragedy will befall Baltiel in this double-sized chapter? Or will my expectations be subverted?

I'm also starting to wonder what happens to these people. The virus that shuts down all "ancient Empire" tech should be heading out soon--perhaps a fairly competent hacker with a fleet of virtual-native octopi raised on Civ V will be able to isolate it before it destroys everything? (hide spoiler)]

Really enjoying book 2. It took an extra chapter to get in to, but I was hooked at Paul.

[Nirkatze]

Book 2 Children of Ruin Finished part 1! Hah! (view spoiler)[It was interesting seeing some of the scattered people out in space dealing with the collapse of Earth society in a more detailed way than we saw in the first--and sure thing, the Octopi saved the day! Just not quite how I thought--but with their timing! I just hope some of the people up in the shuttles etc also survived... (hide spoiler)]

[Tonari no Emily]

Nirkatze wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Scholar Bianca chapter (#1?): [spoilers removed]"

Yeah, that hit me too... and I was immediately thinking--but no! Don't do it! You'll leave yourselves genetically vulnerable..."

Bananas I think?

[Dave]

I started Children of Ruin a couple of days ago. Due to the way that sections/chapters are numbered, it's not entirely clear where everyone is at in the book. Plus I think there are still some ongoing discussions of the first book.

I just finished the "Past 2" section. (view spoiler)[At first I thought perhaps this was going to be a separate almost standalone story in the same universe, much like the way that Le Guin write her books in the Hainish cycle. Then in "Present 1" though, we get back to the human/portiid alliance, where they are apparently on course to encounter the octopi. I assume now we will alternate back and forth between the past, discovering more of the history with the octopi leading up to this, and the present, with whatever sort of conflict may ensue. It is an interesting structure and some interesting ideas so far, but I am not finding the narrative to be quite as compelling as in Children of Time. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Good point, @Dave... I will make sure I label my chapters & book responses clearly. Getting a bit swamped at work, will be back to comment & read on the weekend.

[Nirkatze]

Tonari no Emily wrote: "Bananas, I think?"

Would not be surprised if that was it. Thank you!

[Hailee]

Children of Time

Pilgrimage (view spoiler)[ the human crew of the Gilgamesh annoyed me slightly less in this part, maybe because my irritation was reserved for Kern and her AI. I was a bit uncertain as to whether Kern was definitely awake or the AI was maybe projecting an image of her or something. Everything she said was in character for her but what was all that 'Why can't I open my eyes' stuff about

I enjoyed learning about how the virus affected all the species on the planet. But I also can't quite work out if the nanovirus affected animals are aware that their evolution has been accelerated by the virus or is the description of how it has changed each species told from a 3rd person omniscient perspective? (hide spoiler)]

[Hailee]

Timelord Iain wrote: "End of Pilgrimage: if you think Eliza Kern is crazy now, wait until she finds out her Exultation of Primates resulted in this:
..."

This is the stuff of an arachnophobes nightmares. I must show these to my dad next time I see him 🤣

[Dave]

It seems that the commentary has gone quiet on this one. I just finished the "Past 4" section of Children of Ruin. Just a few general comments.

(view spoiler)[I am enjoying the space horror vibes and the feelings of isolation at times that the author conveys.

I am not particularly religious or an expert on the Bible by any means, I am finding all of the biblical references in the names, places, and section headings to be quite interesting. I am sure that with more in-depth biblical knowledge there would be even more to unpack here that I am completely missing.

There have been some sections of the book that I've found to be rather slow and boring, perhaps due to the author's stylistic choices in some of the writing. While I am liking the big picture narrative, this book (unlike Children of Time) really seems to take the focus off the characters, human and alien alike. Most of the time they come across to me a bit like automatons, serving their purpose to drive the story and nothing more. It's making the entire book feel much more sterile to me, and therefore not as enjoyable a journey as the previous one. (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

I haven't had time to start, yet... so many other books going on... I'll be here in the near future, hopefully...

[Nirkatze]

Dave wrote: "It seems that the commentary has gone quiet on this one. I just finished the "Past 4" section of Children of Ruin. Just a few general comments.

I am enjoying the space horror vibes and the feeling..."

I had a tough first week back at work post vacation and ended up focusing solely on the other book I was reading. Finished it though, and diving in head first to the rest of Children of Ruin as the weekend winds to a close...

[Nirkatze]

Children of Ruin Present 1: Road to Damascus, chapters 1-3

A lot of things I loved in this section: (view spoiler)[First off, I like the little recap-as-story conceit. Well played! And then it turns out to be an exercise in translation and communication! I'm currently also reading Babel, Or the Necessity of Violence: An Arcane History of the Oxford Translators' Revolution, so it's fun getting more perspectives on the necessity and difficulties of translation.

And I was not expecting the epilogue of the previous book to be the "Present" of the current book! I'm excited that we still get to spend time with Portia & co, and meet Helena properly.

I also thought it interesting that Kern's offshoots are described as the "third species" on the ship... almost makes me think of the Thunderhead in Scythe series a bit.

Also, Tardigrades! I actually was imagining this before they put the name to it--not sure why, but then I looked it up and I was right! here's a picture:
(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)]

Also, interesting little introductory article about Tardigrades:
(https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/...) (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Hailee wrote: "Children of Time

Pilgrimage the human crew of the Gilgamesh annoyed me slightly less in this part..."

re: Children of Time: Pilgrimage

(view spoiler)[I love how in the printed text, it has the automated-ish messages sent to the Gil crew by Kern in one column and the "why can't I open my eyes" subtext in a parallel column... I really wonder how that works on audio.

Kern is definitely lacking in empathy--or even sympathy--for her own species... they are a threat to her playing god... such arrogance!

As for the Portiids--I don't think they are aware of their evolutionary upraising at this point. Just the omniscient narrator. Once their science gets more advanced though... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Noticing that all the section titles in Children of Ruin are biblical quotes... I don't remember if that was the case in Children of Time--they were just single words right? But still biblical connotations--Exodus, Pilgrimage... but in book 2... I *think* the titles actually chronologically parallel with main arcs in the bible? I'm not overly familiar with the bible though... maybe "Past" mirrors Old Testament, and "Present" mirrors New Testament?

Okay, I'm gonna do me some research....
(view spoiler)[
Old Testament:
Past 1) Just another Genesis--creation of Earth and life
Past 2) Land of Milk and Honey--Moses leads Israelites to the promised land
Past 3) For We Are Many--New Testament here, I think... Mark 5.9 “My name is Legion, for we are many.”--Jesus saves a man possessed by demons?
Past 4) Pillars of Salt--the razing of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the women who looked back were turned into pillars of salt

New Testament:
Present 1) Road to Damascus--Paul converts to Christianity? Has come to mean a sudden or radical change of thought/belief/mind/heart.
Present 2) Inside the Whale--Jonah and the Whale.. ok, this is Old Testament, so much for that theory... BUT! Apparently Jonah being swallowed by the Whale and released after three days is considered a parallel/foreshadowing for the Crucifixion and Jesus being resurrected after 3 days...
Present 3) Rolling Back the Stone--of Jesus's crypt, to find Jesus is alive again
Present 4) The Face of the Waters--Okay, so first from Genesis 1.2: "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." but then it seems that this is also potentially a reference to John 20:22, when Jesus gives "The Spirit" (communion?) to his disciples after the Resurrection... so the "Face of the Waters" could be referring to the Spirit, and communion?

Future Where Two or Three Shall Gather--Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there among them"--Jesus promising to be among all, even after he has physically left earth... (hide spoiler)]

Very interesting!

[Nirkatze]

So... Children of Ruin How does the Road to Damascus section--Present 1--represent a "sudden change of heart/mind"?

(view spoiler)[It could to relate to the idea of communication--the Portiids, use vibrations, the humans speech, these new folks primarily visual colors--also the Portiids are wondering how the Others could have jumped straight to tech communication without going through the intermediary math phase...

But if these are Paul's descendants... they were plugged right into the computer, and taught how to communicate/play with visual strategy games...

Or it could refer to the Other's reaction to the Lightfoot's presence--a sudden conversion to realizing that they are not alone in the universe....

Or the Portia & co's belief that the Other's society is also derivative of humans, or that their history with humankind was a positive one...

I'm surprised they didn't just send back a solid color with maybe a progression of 1, 2, 3 dots... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Children of Ruin (section 3) Past 2: Land of Milk and Honey

Chapter 1 (view spoiler)[Ah! So the colors from Present 1 are directly related to how Octopi communicate! I did not know that. Kind of reminds me of the Aeluons in The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet--which apparently were inspired by how cephalopods communicate through color. Learn something new every day!

I also find it interesting that Baltiel thinks of what will happen when the future refugees come to claim a Damascus (the Land of Milk and Honey) and find it already occupied by the Octopi (I know it's technically supposed to be Octopuses but I like Octopi)--but he doesn't consider that he is setting up the Octopi in the same solar system as the Nodians... how long will it take them to compete for resources? Then again, the Portiids had to compete with the ants, and the ocean folk, and managed to live in harmony... what biological imperative drove these Octopi to hostility instead?

And in the Land of Milk and Honey--there were already people living there. Especially if you look at it in a modern interpretation, with how much conflict Israel has seen.... perhaps the Octopodes of the present have already met and dispatched a group of human refugees by the time they reach the Present?
(hide spoiler)]

Chapter 2--(view spoiler)["I am a jealous god." --also from Exodus, and followed by "Do not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you, and you will eat their sacrifices" which is fairly foreboding if you look at this in context of the impending hostility of the Others in the Present sections... and that this is in context of the humans suggesting setting up a "reservation" in Nod--and of biogeneering humans with gills to live among the Octopi on Damascus...

Zeus & Poseidon--Zeus, Baltiel, of Nod, the low-oxygen planet, Poseidon, Senkovi, jealous god of the Octopi soon to be on Damascus...

How far do we go before we are no longer human? I always thought of humanity as a state of mind rather than state of genetics... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 6, I think--(view spoiler)[the non-bilateral aspects of the Nodians bring to mind the erratic-seeming piloting of some of the spaceship forms that met Portia's crew--the tyre-shaped ship, the gyrating as they slow down... so at some point the Nodians & Octopi must have come in contact... but they have negative impressions of humans? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 7--(view spoiler)[interesting parallel between the "chimera children" Erma L. wants to cook up and the cult/shipborn that grew up on the Gil...

The tortoise's needle-jab--so the chapter 5 consciousness was probably Nod then... but was it just the tortoises, or is all Nodian life connected? This is them studying the humans back... studying, or attacking? (hide spoiler)]

Dave wrote: "I started Children of Ruin a couple of days ago. Due to the way that sections/chapters are numbered, it's not entirely clear where everyone is at in the book. Plus I think there are still some ongo..."

re: Children of Ruin Past 2: Land of Milk and Honey--I had the same preconceptions too--I didn't think there was going to be as much connection to the first book as there is. (view spoiler)[I am finding the similar structure--alternating past & present instead of Portiids and Gil crew--interesting... also not alternating each chapter, but in sections... and with the title: Children of Ruin I feel set up for an inevitable clash at some point, almost like the Portiid/human clash in Time.

But I can see how this isn't as compelling from the start--for one, we haven't seen hardly but a single chapter from the Paul & co's POV, and none from Nod--and Portia's chapters were by far my favorites in Children of Time. (hide spoiler)]

[Dave]

Nirkatze, your insight here and depth of analysis is truly impressive. Do you write down notes as you are reading, or just remember all of your thoughts to comment later?

I made mention of the biblical references in my previous comment, but you probably haven't read it yet since it's in a spoiler for a later section of the book. I'm not much of an expert on the Bible - I understood some of the section headings and names were referring to, but I didn't go beyond that to do some extra research like you have, so thanks for adding some detail on that. I am pretty sure that the biblical references are unique to this book - if there were some in Children of Time then they were much more subtle.

[Nirkatze]

Dave wrote: "Nirkatze, your insight here and depth of analysis is truly impressive. Do you write down notes as you are reading, or just remember all of your thoughts to comment later?

I made mention of the bib..."

LOL I just sit in front of the computer as I read (on weekends anyway) and type things up as I think of them. It also helps that I have an ebook and can search/copy/paste lines easily.

Looking through Children of Time the section headings are: (view spoiler)[
1. Genesis
2. Pilgrimage
3. War
4. Enlightenment
5. Schism
6. Zenith/Nadir
7. Collision
8. Diaspora
(hide spoiler)]
Many of which have religious connotations, but which are not so obviously religious. Definitely could do some more thought there though! Now I'm curious to see what the Children of Memory sections are, but I don't want to peek yet!!

Glad this rabbit hole was interesting/useful to you! That's one of the main things that makes me so happy to be BRing--sharing new insights... getting new perspectives...

Looking forward to getting to your spoiler tag, Dave! Not there *just* yet...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Started my re-read of Children of Ruin...

I love your Deep Dives, Nirkatze...

Finished Past 1 & Present 1... (view spoiler)[it's clear these books are structured in 8 parts because the creatures featured have 8 legs... something about this one makes me want to attribute the structure to hind legs and fore legs, for some reason... I know octopus legs are autonomous entities with minds of their own... they work together a bit, but are just as prone to ignore other legs and do their own thing (unless my memory is inventing info now... I looked into them in the past... and have read stories of them breaking out of zoo tanks at night, and watched videos of their intelligence and fine motor skills...) (hide spoiler)]

The truly scary creature of the book (view spoiler)[is These Of We... I still shudder thinking about that guy... "We're Going On An Adventure"... or whatever the quote is... we'll see it, later on... so innocuous... so chilling... (hide spoiler)]

[Franziska (tintenklexxe)]

Timelord Iain wrote: "Started my re-read of Children of Ruin...

Finished Past 1 & Present 1... [spoilers removed]
"
I never thought about that!

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Franziska (tintenklexxe) wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Started my re-read of Children of Ruin...

Finished Past 1 & Present 1... [spoilers removed]
"
I never thought about that!"

I only thought about it on re-read... noted it with the first book, a few weeks ago...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Dave wrote: "I started Children of Ruin a couple of days ago. Due to the way that sections/chapters are numbered, it's not entirely clear where everyone is at in the book. Plus I think there are still some ongo..."

This is very much a connected / ongoing story, building upon each entry... altho, the first entry was definitely written as a possible standalone... each epilogue leaves the door open for a sequel...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Finished Past & Present 2 (I've been pausing and reading something else, after reading a pair... pausing again now)...

This story definitely flows differently than the first book... the first book has a sense of discovery and a Nature documentary...

The Past/Present nature of this book changes that alot... and you already have expectations, after seeing the first book play out...

I think Nod plays with those expectations a bit...

Otherwise, it's mostly a story of (view spoiler)[2 very different civilizations struggling to communicate... I think someone made the comparison to British colonialism, but I could be confusing that with some other book I read recently... (hide spoiler)]

[Dave]

Franziska (tintenklexxe) wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Started my re-read of Children of Ruin...

Finished Past 1 & Present 1... [spoilers removed]
"
I never thought about that!"

Yes, I agree, that is a very interesting connection and significance in respect to (view spoiler)[the number 8. I wonder if there are any more aside from the number of limbs of the species and number of sections in the book where the number 8 is important. (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Dave wrote: "Franziska (tintenklexxe) wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Started my re-read of Children of Ruin...

Finished Past 1 & Present 1... [spoilers removed]
"
I never thought about that!"

Yes, I agree, tha..."

All will be revealed, when the 8 book series is complete ;)

(this is pure speculation... for all I know, it's a trilogy)...

[Nirkatze]

Franziska (tintenklexxe) wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Started my re-read of Children of Ruin...

Finished Past 1 & Present 1... [spoilers removed]
"
I never thought about that!"

Ditto this!

[Nirkatze]

Timelord Iain wrote: "Finished Past & Present 2 (I've been pausing and reading something else, after reading a pair... pausing again now)...

This story definitely flows differently than the first book... the first book..."

The Past/Present structure is giving me a much bigger sense of foreboding than the previous book. Like--(view spoiler)[ our first glimpse of past has tragedy and hints of madness, and our first glimpse of present has conflict without reason--so we wonder why? What tragedy of the past caused this chaos of a future? Plus the title: Children of Ruin. Very ominous.

Still bemoaning the relative lack of Paul chapters so far... (hide spoiler)]

Other thoughts, Children of Ruin Present 2: In the Belly of the Whale

(view spoiler)[So the title is a reference to Jonah and the Whale, and on the surface the Whale can definitely be the Others, and Jonah then is Helena & Portia. But that parable is also seen as a foretelling of Jesus' resurrection, and Present 3 is "Rolling Back the Rock" which is also in reference to that--so keeping an eye out for anything that could be prophetic...

I really start to see Kern as another species here, and not just as the AI remnants of an egomaniac human. The way she makes decisions, the way she yearns for another of her kind--at the end, reaching towards the other signal--will she eventually face a choice of who to side with? Again?

I love the slow revelation that the Other ships are full of water, here! First coming across the dead ship, then wondering about the maneuvering and slow bungling acceleration--finally seeing how the injured ships bleed ice...

@Iain, I appreciate your comment about "two cultures trying to communicate"--this is a difference from the first book for sure, when the humans didn't even think there was something to communicate with and so no effort was made... On the other hand, I have been curious from the beginning about the changing colors of the Others' communication. Why did it change to hostile so quickly, when it failed to receive a desired response? I would assume (with the obvious result of ass=me) that a culture advanced enough to make it to space, and which has its origins in human contact and/or intervention, would have a consciousness at enough of a highly developed state to recognize that something Other may have trouble communicating in the matter with which we are accustomed. I mean, isn't that what this whole series is about? And we aren't at that tech level yet.

It reminds me of the whole surviving mutineer from the early Portia chapters--and also of those people who insist on speaking louder and slower when their listener (of another language) doesn't understand them--that doesn't break the language barrier fool!--though I suppose that latter example just proves that our current civilization isn't completely free of that lack-of-consideration/consciousness level of development.

So when we finally get a Paul chapter, and get some insight into how the Octopi think, I felt a big FINALLY! I find the whole separate brains--separate intentions--even within the own body, played out a larger scale, and driven largely by emotion and instinct with intellect being a non-dominant part to be much more alien than the Portiids. The separate of Crown, Reach, Guile makes me think somewhat of Id, Ego, and Superego...

The end of the sequence, with Helena & Portia captured (I refuse to believe them dead)--seems more belly-of-whale than the rest of the chapter... though if we're looking at something prophetic, then the whole "meeting inside the fleet" and the fleet at war could be a mirror for now "inside a ship" in the next one...and war on a bigger scale? (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Early Past 3: I told you "we're going on an adventure"... (view spoiler)[These of We is trying so hard to act normal, lol... and failing spectacularly... (hide spoiler)]

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Nirkatze wrote: "Timelord Iain wrote: "Finished Past & Present 2 (I've been pausing and reading something else, after reading a pair... pausing again now)...

This story definitely flows differently than the first ..."

Sometimes I forget how much more I know about octopi physiology than "normal"... between reading this book before, and just general googling/reddit... they're such fascinating creatures...

When they're not torturing my poor dolphin buddy in childhood:



So many memories of Ecco the dolphin on Sega Genesis...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Present 3: (view spoiler)[These of We has had centuries to learn from the corpses, and it shows...

This section (and the previous) probably evokes the closest emotions of the end of the first book... that feeling of being in a horror movie... and the dichotomy of reactions... the spiders and their humanitarian mission at the end of the first book, and the alien organism and it's adventurous spirit in this one... (hide spoiler)]

I'm probably going to further break up the last 2 sections, and pause between Past & Present... Present 4 has 20 chapters, more than double any other section in the book...

The timeline on this book is super tight (especially in the Present timeline)