Banned Books discussion
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It's really upsetting how so many amazing books won't be read because of someone else's fear.Currently reading: Tokyo Ghost Vol 2
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Currently reading: Tokyo Ghost Vol 2"
It’s is also upsetting how much of the USA is turning into Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s Russia. And yes, if you support book banning in any way, I will label and call you a frigging NAZI.
Rereading Judy Blume’s Forever and sharing this with two teenaged acquaintances since for one they asked me about the novel and for two because I know it will totally infuriate their puritanical and anally retentive parents.
Hi I've rejoined this group, because I find the situation in Florida so concerning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM6tv...
I can't imagine many educators wanting to move to Florida now - & there is already a teacher shortage there.
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Manybooks wrote: "That NAZI governor is planning on censoring colleges and universities. If I were a college or university professor I would rather go to jail than to cater to Nazis."I would move, honestly. & if I was a parent in Florida, I would be worried that my child was not developing critical thinking skills.
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I would move..."
I am really glad that when we emigrated from Germany in 1976, my parents immigrated to Canada and not the USA, as honestly, I would probably have ended up being black listed etc.
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A whole heck of a lot of books just got banned in Florida and Iowa with "don't say gay" laws. It disgusts me and I've been working my way through the lists of picture books and some middle grades books. I've been picking up some of the books to pass on to kids in states where they can't easily access these books.
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Pen America just released a report on book banning from the 2023-24 school year in public schools in the US. Over 10,000!! books were banned last year!https://pen.org/memo-on-school-book-b...
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https://pen.org/memo-on-school-book-b......"
That's book. The ALA tells a different story- counting only each title once. Neither report counts soft censorship. We can never know how many books have been "weeded" or not even ordered. PLUS these reports are only about schools and not public libraries, bookstores or even big box stores. And yes people complain about books in Walmart and Target too. AND this is just a report from the U.S. There's also a report from the U.K. I don't see one from Australia/New Zealand but they've had challenges too. Censorship is everywhere in the free English-speaking world. Yet the right-wing would-be censors say it's not a ban because these books are still on Amazon and it's not a GOVERNMENT ban. Yet, it is in many states!
Yes it could be worse like China, which has just banned government employees from reading widely on every subject. Now it's party line only. Or Turkey. Yes there are a lot of countries with government censorship but if the MAGA Republicans have their way, the U.S. WILL be like China!
Yes, I'm aware that Pen counts each case of banning, pulling, whatever. I'm OK with that. If my school district bans... Gender Queer for example (they haven't that I'm aware of), and then the 3 neighboring school districts also ban it, that's hundreds if not thousands of kids that don't have access. And, like you said, this isn't even counting public libraries, so if our libraries don't have Gender Queer, either, then we've got a total desert. If the 10,000 number helps shock people, AND we know it's low, I'm ok with that.
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For those of you that truly worry about banning books from kids, fear not. It has never worked. Also take a very good look in the mirror and know you too have a line you do not want crossed when it comes for preventing books for kids.
It worked in Nazi Germany. It works in today's Russia, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc etc. Right now there are 13 books that are not allowed in the state of Utah's school systems. The only way it doesn't work is if people become complacent.
And yes, there are books that I would rather my daughter not read, but when she is old enough to make those choices herself (ie: old enough to read by herself), then I won't stop her.
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Here in the U.S. the MAGA Republicans have Project 2025 funded by dark money. It calls for jailing librarians and making them register as sex offenders for providing pr0n to kids. There is NO pr0n in libraries. That would be illegal. What they really mean is books by and about LGBTQ+ characters, people of color and sexual violence. See Florida and Alabama as case studies. It CAN happen here and it IS happening.
Jennifer has the right to tell her daughter what not to read but not the right to tell everyone else what to not to read and that's the issue right now.
It's not even about the books. It's about dark money guys wanting to privatize everything they can control and the White Christian Nationalists have jumped on the bandwagon and create a fuss about books. They defund libraries and schools and use the money to create their own unregulated charter schools to indoctrinate their kids. There is no "leftist liberal agenda" but there sure is a White, Christian, Nationalist agenda.
I listened to Heather Cox Richardson last night on Zoom and she says we have to vote blue down ballot because all this fascism stuff starts at the lower level. Vote for school board, vote for local government. It starts there.
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The only way it..."
Anyone who thinks that the book banning moves in the USA and elsewhere are not dangerous and akin to Stalinism and Nazism, is in my opinion naive at best (and that is dangerous and this complacency should scare us).
Book banning worked disgustingly well for Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin et al and is also working and proliferating in American states that are adhering to Fascism, like Florida, Texas, Utah etc.
And frankly, you should ONLY ever have the right to censor what your own children are reading (and that "right" should lessen for teenagers and be non existent for university students, as helicopter parents should have no say at all regarding what is taught, read etc. at the college/university level).
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Also take a very good look in the mirror and know you too have a line you do not want crossed when ..."
If my child brought home a book I found offensive, I would NOT forbid them to read the book, but I would read it with them and discuss with them my issues with the book and why I have issues.
Also, the majority of children are very good at self monitoring and knowing if a given book is too much for them.
Manybooks wrote: "...Also, the majority of children are very good at self monitoring and knowing if a given book is too much for them."I haven't been active on this group since before the Coof, but that sentence caught my attention.
Really!?
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I haven't been active on this group since before the Coof, b..."
Yes, really!! I certainly self relegated as a young reader.
Then you are an outstanding person, because the rest of us would be cringing hard if we were to be confronted by our young selves.
Manybooks wrote: "Book banning worked disgustingly well for Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin et al and is also working and proliferating in American states that are adhering to Fascism, like Florida, Texas, Utah etc.And frankly, you should ONLY ever have the right to censor what your own children are reading (and that "right" should lessen for teenagers and be non existent for university students, as helicopter parents should have no say at all regarding what is taught, read etc. at the college/university level)...."
I am using Manybooks as a response to most of all what was written by all. I read Hitler, Stalin, China, Russia, and others. so how is Nazi Germany doing these days? How about China? Russia or should I say the former Soviet Union? does anyone understand book banning never works? It only draws attention to the books. In the United States and Great Britain it is sure fire way to get a best seller.
As for schools where much of the ballyhoo happens, does anyone think these banned books are not being read by the very kids banned from them? How about Harry Potter Series Box Set. The most challenged series in modern history and yet every kid reads them.
To give you guys something to think about, any gentleman on this thread, were you able to see your fathers Playboy as a twelve year old? Were you allowed? Did it stop you?
Manybooks wrote: "If my child brought home a book I found offensive, I would NOT forbid them to read the book, but I would read it with them and discuss with them my issues with the book and why I have issues.Also, the majority of children are very good at self monitoring and knowing if a given book is too much for them..."
I can only take you at your word. I do have one question, do you. have children?
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The problem is that schools should NOT be banning books, and that certain politicians are putting their dirty fingers into what is being taught at the university level is even worse.
Sure, kids who have the funds, kids who have "intelligent" parents that will let them read what they want etc. etc. will of course be able to access banned and restricted books, but that is definitely not the case for ALL young readers.
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Also, the majority of children are very good at self monitoring and knowing if a given book is too much for them.
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Yes, the young adult librarian at my local neighborhood branch library said this too. I know I only wanted to read Anne of Green Gables and Little House on the Prairie over and over again. I didn't and still don't want to read contemporary issue novels but my nieces are just the opposite. They won't touch the classics. If they have questions or concerns, they'll share with their moms and/or dad or stepdad. Not every kid is lucky enough to have supportive parents and for some, these books the extremists find controversial and offensive may save their lives. Kids also need to see themselves and their families reflected in the books they read and other kids need to develop empathy and understanding of people not like them.
Windows, Mirrors and Sliding Glass Doors
https://scenicregional.org/wp-content...
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Especially the LGBTQIA+ youth who NEED these books but their parents won't allow them.
But we're not talking about Playboy here. We're talking about actual books, literature that reflects the lives of the children today and yes the same books are being challenged in public libraries and bookstores, even big box stores like Target have been slammed for selling Pride Month merchandise and books where kids can see them.
If kids want actual pr0n they know how to find it on their phones.
There are literal laws in nearly every state that ban certain books. Those laws are working.
If the Republicans win the election they will enact Project 2025 which calls for jailing librarians and forcing them to register as s-e-x offenders for providing pr0n to minors, which they don't because that would be illegal but that doesn't matter. Anything the extremists don't like is considered you know what.
If you haven't been following the news, I recommend reading some of PEN America's reports to see how successful book banning is.
https://pen.org/reports/
PEN America recorded 4,349 book bans in 23 states and 52 public school districts between July and December 2023. This was more than the number of bans in the entire previous school year.
Texas and Florida have had the most book bans, followed by Missouri, Utah, and South Carolina.
Some say book bans are necessary to protect children from sensitive topics, while others say they make it difficult for students to access a range of books.
PEN America found that 74% of book bans in 2023 came from elected officials, advocacy groups, or enacted legislation
And Papaphilly you say book banning is not successful?
Also, no kid should be running around a library yanking books off the shelves so no a 5 year old won't encounter a puberty book if their parents don't allow it. Plus those books are in a section of non-fiction shelved with similar books. An adult graphic memoir won't even be IN the same section as books for 5 year olds rendering that argument completely useless. Yes some libraries are one room but again, keep track of your kid. My nieces and nephews and 99% of the kids I see in the public library just want to play in the play area/play with the toys, use the computers and do maker space activities. Some are doing homework with tutors. When I do see kids picking out books they're with their parents.
I haven't even gotten to erasing Black history yet... That's another method of book banning that is successful.
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Also, the majority of children are very good at self monitoring and knowing if a given book is too much for them.
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Yes, the young adult librarian at my local neighborhood bra..."
I asked my mother (when I was around twelve) about her German language historical romances (I had read ALL of the German children's novels I had brought to Canada with me when we immigrated and I wanted to keep up with my German reading skills). My mother was sure I was not mature enough yet for these novels but she let me figure this out on my own (which I did very quickly, as those historical romance novels were hugely boring, but I am so so so glad that my mother allowed me to find this out on my own and trusted me to self censor and self monitor).
QNPoohBear wrote: "Manybooks wrote: "Sure, kids who have the funds, kids who have "intelligent" parents that will let them read what they want etc. etc. will of course be able to access banned and restricted books, b..."So which is it? Parents get to decide for their children or not? You just have said both.
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Parents ONLY should have the right to monitor what their own children (and certainly not adult children) are allowed to read.
And that should NOT mean getting books removed from library shelves, classrooms etc. as that would mean parents forcing their attitudes etc. down everyone else's collective throats.
Pretty simple ...
Manybooks wrote: Parents ONLY should have the right to monitor what their own children (and certainly not adult children) are allowed to read...."Seems to me you want to assert your ability to tell another what should happen in another's family. But, you do not want another to tell you what to do in your family.
Once again, do you have children?
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Seems to me you want to assert your ability to te..."
NONE your business, but yes I do (and I never prevent them from reading what they want but will take the time to discuss with them books they read or choose that I consider potentially problematic).
And ANYONE who thinks that they should have the right to monitor and censor not just what their own children but also what other children are reading is in my opinion rather majorly dictatorial.
Where did I say that parents should not be able to monitor their children's reading? But I certainly will ALWAYS say that parents should not have the right to get books banned from the classroom or the library because they do not want their children reading these books, as that would be imposing their demands etc. on the entire classroom (or everyone who visits the library). And that also includes me as well, as there definitely are dated books I have issues but I would never consider trying to get these collectively banned just because I find them problematic.
This reminds me of Martin Niemöller's poem "First They Came." Some people shrugged when the Right started yelling about Gender Queer because their children were straight. But now they're banning Everywhere Babies, The Story of Ruby Bridges and who knows what else.
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Good analogy!!
message 35:
by
Kelly (Maybedog), Minister of Illicit Reading
(last edited Oct 23, 2024 07:16PM)
(new)
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Please read the group guidelines about what is appropriate and what isn't. Please do not single anyone out when clearly there are many people who have posted here who disagree with you. You outright said you'd direct your comments at her and continued to do so. You actually accused ManyBooks of saying the opposite of what she was saying.
If you are having a specific discussion where you're specifically talking to someone else or where only one person has an opinion, it's okay to address them directly, but the way you did it is inappropriate.
I do not feel you are respecting other people's opinions by making it personal such as continually asking if they have children. A philosophical debate or a political argument, etc., is opinion and in no way is it relevant what a person's private life is when expounding their opinion.
For example, while I feel that the only people who can truly have an informed opinion on abortion are women who've gotten pregnant accidentally, that doesn't mean I don't have the right to have an opinion or to espouse that opinion. It is up to you as to whether to believe it or not, but judging me because I have never been pregnant is not your job.
I will call out anyone who I feel is violating the rules of the group. You have the right to your opinion as well. I'm going to get ahead of you here because I expect you're going to accuse me of censorship. The guidelines should explain this, but basically, this forum is for people who respect each other. Each person's rights stop where they infringe on other people's rights. You can say whatever you want until it impinges on someone else's feelings of safety. If you disagree with that, perhaps this isn't the discussion group for you.
Thank you for your care in this.
If you have concerns about this, please message me directly.
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A book banned in Utah is not going to be banned worldwide or even outside the state. But it is going to affect those in Utah such as the poor who do not have the money to buy the book online if they even have a computer. It will affect younger children who have no way to get a book not accessible to them at school or the library. It will affect those that don't even know about it let alone if it's banned. It will affect those who don't want to go to the effort of finding it. How many little kids actually were able to read the picture book And Tango Makes Three in the places it was banned?
No, the Nazi's don't have a stronghold today and we have access to those materials now, but one of the reasons the Nazi empire was able to expand so much was because access to anything that disagreed with them, that painted Jews (or gays or Blacks, etc.) in a positive light just wasn't available. Yeah, we have those things now but 6 million Jews died because people were brainwashed by a few mad men who barred access to books that would make people see reason.
I'm confused about the reference to Mein Kamf. None of us here want to forbid you to read it, that's up to you. We don't want to stop you from reading anything. And when you were young that was up to you.
Children are a different story and the biggest issue in this country. As others here have said, people are trying to decide for other parents what their children are allowed to read. Yes I decide what is appropriate for my child at their age but Mein Kamf is not appropriate for a six year old. I also don't want my 14-year-old to read it without talking about it with me afterward so I make sure they're not getting a message I don't want them to get. Yes, I'm deciding what is right for MY child and what message I want them to get. But that message is always going to be pro-information. That is no censorship. That's appropriate developmental childrearing.
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Yes, very well said. Plenty of people read Mein Kampf knowing full well what it is but they want to read it to learn and understand.
What's happening now is many kids don't have access to the books they want and need to read because their parents won't buy it for them because they believe being gay is evil and gender dysphoria doesn't exist. That causes mental distress in youth and adults who don't have the support they need.
Many kids don't even know a book has been banned because it was quietly removed from the shelves or they didn't know it existed in the first place.
Every reader is different and not every book is for every reader or every reader for every book. I gave my niece a graphic novel I bought her without reading. Kiss Number 8It was a little much for me at first but then I thought about it and I grew up in a similar community with similar friends and I thought it might be good for my niece to read about what it was like when/where her dad grew up. (Catholic school, conservative suburban community). Plus she told me she reads manga and the ones I mentioned that have been banned are "like the most basic ones there is" and she wouldn't read them because they're too basic.
A year later I don't think she read the book. Maybe it was too much for her or maybe it was tough to read about the homophobia or maybe she was uninterested because it's a non issue in her school and neighborhood.
Kelly (Maybedog) wrote: "Papaphilly, Please read the group guidelines about what is appropriate and what isn't. Please do not single anyone out when clearly there are many people who have posted here who disagree with yo..."
I will reply to this message openly. I have nothing to hide. If you actually read what I wrote, I used Manybooks response because it was articulated by many. I noted this in my response. I can point it out for you if you like (response 23). I also notice you point out me and not others that called me out by name. Not a problem for me, but I do want to point it out.
As far as respecting opinions, if opinions are not challenged, how does one know if it is worth the ink spilled? Challenging opinions is not in of itself disrespectful. I actually think it is a high form of flattery that one is worth the time to debate. If you can show me anywhere on these threads that I think any opinion is stupid or some similar word, or not important, please show me. If not, then maybe something is being assigned to me that is not so.
As far as respecting anyone's opinion, I have not been disrespectful. I may disagree with an opinion, so what? There is no room for disagreement? Even if I agree with a sentiment, there will always be an area of contention. If one does not like my opinions, so be it. Make me defend my position. If I state it, I will defend it, apologize, or stand corrected. I have done all three.
As far as a difference between private life and opinion, unless you misspoke, you are flat wrong. An opinion is a statement of thought on a given subject hopefully after private contemplation formed by life lessons. Unless one is misleading in their statements on purpose, it should be how one feels or thinks on a given subject, including having no opinion on said subject.
Asking twice if someone has children is not disrespectful nor continual. Twice. I ask for a very simple reason, to see if there is skin in the game. It is far different when one has children and then it is not an esoteric discussion. That opinion means more because they actually understand the ramifications as compared to one that does not have to actually deal with any fallout. Being a good parent has many facets and many routes to raising children properly. None of us are going to agree on every step. My personal rule of thumb is: if you raised a productive adult, you probably did a good job.
Using your abortion example (which I think is a good one), you yourself acknowledge that you think only those that get pregnant can have an informed opinion. Thus, by reason, any non-informed opinion must carry less weight. I use exactly the same logic. I did not discount any opinion, only give higher weight to those with children because they truly understand. My exception in the case of banned books is with librarians without children because they are front line warriors and I hold them in high regard generally speaking, much like teachers without children. Mea Culpa, I have family and close friends that are librarians and teachers. I am not unbiased in this regard.
I have neither been nasty nor insulting. For the record, I did read the guidelines. If one does not like my opinions, that is their right. Defending ones beliefs is not an easy road to walk. I have had to do it more than once dealing with books in school and my childs reading habits.
As far a claims of censorship, I have not made such a claim and suggesting that I would is insulting. You owe me an apology.
I see insults on others feelings on books. Only intelligent parents will allow their children to read certain books? That was written just a few posts ago. How about insulting MAGA people? That does not infringe on their feelings? I guess some feelings are more important than others depending on the objects of ire. Kind of like censoring books you like. Parents that do not want their children exposed to given books are stupid? How about maybe they do not share the same values? How about they worry about their children getting exposed to ideas they do not like or do not feel are inappropriate for their children?
While I do not agree with banning books out of the school library and will never condone banning book in a public library, I harbor no ill will to those that are not happy with what is available. There is a process and I have found they follow it. That is what the process is there for and it is available to all equally, not just the ones with you agree. For those of you that think parents have no right to have books challenged or banned, how about the other side of the coin wondering why you get to have the right to expose their child to books they do not agree with for their reasons? I have read about appropriateness of books for children and how a parent should decide what their child reads. You yourself has written just this thought. Yet how would you feel if the school decided Mein Kamf is being taught to your 6 year-old or your 14 year old without your approval or even knowledge? How about some school group decides your child is being given appropriate developmental child-rearing of which you do not agree? This stuff is not easy. How about you now get called not intelligent because that third party decides you are a troglodyte?
I am not a young man and have seen plenty of history when it comes to censorship. It has run the gamut from the far left to the far right and everything in between. It knows no bounds of race, religion, or creed. Every group is guilty. People do not like ideas they do not agree.
If I make you uncomfortable, good. Maybe you will think about what I am writing. I am not asking you to agree or change your opinion. I am asking you to think about what I write. I have more than 50 years of dealing with book censorship. First with myself as a elementary schooler, then with my child growing up. Time and time again I have seen this ugly head rear up and time and time again it fails. That is the history lesson. The funny part of this is that most of these people are good people trying to do right by their families. For those of you that want to complain about groups banning books, get involved and put in the hard work. I did so and it is exhausting, frustrating, and lonely. However, it is interesting how one gadfly can upset the apple cart.
As far me leaving, I am staying. If you want me out, then put me out. But then that would be censorship. Quite an interesting conundrum. Just for the record, I have been part of Goodreads for more than ten years and have never blocked anyone. But then I do not believe in censorship.
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But that doesn't actually happen in the real world.
In the real world, there are special interest groups mainly on the far right who disagree with the content of certain books. They have an entire database and they take passages and images out of context and post them online, read them in school board meetings (where there may be children present) and claim these books are evil and must be removed for the good of all children. They repeat the process for public libraries. When they do bother to fill out request for reconsideration forms they show they haven't read the book. They don't have well thought out answers. The answers range from the wrong author (Did Oprah Winfrey write The Hill We Climb: An Inaugural Poem for the Country?) "Satan" is not a valid reason for wanting to ban the book because children mention wanting to play spin the bottle. Arthur's Birthday.
They have a playbook and it's working. They don't stop at books either. They ban people too.
And every parent has the ability and option to opt their kid out of a lesson plan or book they don't want their children exposed to. It's as simple as requesting an alternate assignment or calling/emailing the librarian to block the kid from checking out certain books or without parental consent.
Yes some on the extreme left cancel books with ideas they consider outdated or publishers change language that is outdated and possibly offensive. I personally don't agree with that either.
Also, we're not even talking about books like Mein Kampf, which certain people would happily read and enjoy and agree with. see a certain group of moms based in Florida with branches in many, many other places.
message 40:
by
Kelly (Maybedog), Minister of Illicit Reading
(last edited Oct 24, 2024 10:36PM)
(new)
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Secondly, telling me I'm flat wrong is not respectful. "I disagree" or "here is where this fact is spelled out" is fine. Telling me I'm wrong because you disagree with me on how I define something is not okay.
Asking more than once saying, "I repeat" implying that what they said before is irrelevant if they don't have children is rude, especially since people can still have opinions and that's private information. If I had school age children I would not tell you because it's too easy to find info about people on the net and I don't want predators thinking they should find my kids because they don't like me. (I'm not implying that's you at all.) I have several children who call me mom who were foster children or who I got guardianship of when they were older. The state was always involved, although not much with the guardianship. So how do you want me to answer the question?
Banned Books
Books mentioned in this topic
The Hill We Climb: An Inaugural Poem for the Country (other topics)Arthur's Birthday (other topics)
Kiss Number 8 (other topics)
And Tango Makes Three (other topics)
Gender Queer: A Memoir (other topics)
More...
I've been using this list from PEN America, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
What has everyone else been reading?