The Trees by Conrad Richter

[Terry]

The Great Lakes are called The English Lakes in the book.

From Brittanica: “Three major conflicts affected the history and development of the Great Lakes. The French and Indian War (1754–63)—a struggle between the French and British to gain control of rich fur-producing lands—concluded with the cession of Canada to England. The main consequences of the American Revolution (1775–83) for the Great Lakes region were the migration of thousands of loyalists to New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Quebec, and Ontario and the establishment of the present international boundary between the United States and Canada. During the War of 1812, Lake Erie was the site of a major naval battle.”

This doesn’t really seem to narrow things.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I also placed it between 1795 and 1803, for exactly the reasons Marilyn cited.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I have also seen land cleared and I cannot imagine what it would have been like to have done it with nothing but an ax to work with. I did not participate at all, but it was intensive labor for the men I watched.

[Terry]

The settlement of Marietta is not mentioned. Is the “Northwest Territory” mentioned?

The book said that Worth had travelled the trace with Colonel Bouquet when he was a boy. From a University of Michigan abstract of Bouquet’s Expedition against the Indians:

“Bouquet's Expedition against the Indians consists of two orderly books issued by Colonel Henry Bouquet, spanning August-November 1764, during which time he lead a small army into western Ohio Indian territory to retrieve white captives and to enforce a peace settlement with the Delaware, Mingo, Shawnee, and Wyandot Indians. “

If we add 20 years to 1764, we get 1784.

Is the American Revolution mentioned? I think it might have been, but not sure. Of course, that went on for a while.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Yes, the Revolution is mentioned and I tried to go back, because I thought Fort Henry had been mentioned as well, but I could not find the reference, so maybe not. At the 4th of July celebration, it is definitely mentioned that the flag has 15 stars. That means this cannot be earlier than 1795.

[Terry]

The official end of the Revolutionary War was in 1783, so this probably doesn’t help.

But…

The book mentions Paddy’s Run which was a Welsh Community founded 1801. The book doesn’t describe much about it but it was there.

Here is a rather rambling video about some of the old parts of what is now called Shannon, Ohio.

https://www.google.com/search?q=paddy...

So, I would guess the novel takes place between 1801 and 1803.

[Marilyn]

Terry wrote: "Is the “Northwest Territory” mentioned? ..."

The Northwest Territory was mentioned at the 4th of July celebration and again at near the end of the book.

Another clue to time frame was the Treaty of Greenville in 1795 that established a boundary line in northwest Ohio, with the indigenous people pushed to the north side and the south side opening to European American settlement. Native Americans lived in close proximity when the family first arrived in the territory. The arrival of more settlers was probably due to their removal from the land.

[Brian E]

The Trees is usually referred to as being set at the end of the 18th century, with Wikipedia, stating circa 1795. So I just presumed it started in 1795 but didn't know when it ended? Does anyone have an idea how long they have been at the settlement? I presumed it's about 1798 or 1799. So, pretty much as Marilyn and Sara had reckoned.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Like you, Brian, I had 1795 in my head as a starting date and I think only three or four years have passed. In the next book we may get an idea when 1803 comes, since Ohio will become a state then. I'm putting us at around 1799 at story end in this book.

[Sue]

I'm through chapter 16
 
Chapter 14 About Sulie (view spoiler)[  I this chapter was so sad.  I was sure they would find Sulie, especially after Louie Scurrah got involved.  I think she is alive and with Indians because she was good about finding food and shelter and that little replica house she built was a good clue to leave behind.  She seems like a survivor.   I hope so anyway.  I agree with Sayward that I'd rather a loved one not be found then be found dead, because you can still have hope.  (hide spoiler)] 

Chapter 16 About  Genny (view spoiler)[ Genny was so happy to be a new bride and it went south quickly.  I figured she may not be so happy if he kept going off or something but I neve imagined he'd be controlling and abusive.    I was thinking he might turn out to be a good guy after he organized the search line.  I feel so bad for Genny, the way Louie keeps isolated from her family and alone.   What a monster he is to seduce Asha at a public gathering while they are newlyweds!  Asha doesn't get a pass either.  What a horrible betrayal.    (hide spoiler)]
Chapter 17 About Worth and Portius Wheeler  (view spoiler)[   What a jerk Worth is leaving his family so long like that, having them worry that he's dead after Jary and Sulie.   It's good that he requested that letter since it lead to Sayward going to Portius Wheeler.  Even though she's not that attracted to him yet, I feel something will be happening with those two.  I hope so.  Sayward deserves some happiness.  (hide spoiler)]

I'm can't wait to get to the rest of this.  It's moving really fast now!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Sue (view spoiler)[I was also very sad about Sulie. How hard to have someone just disappear in that way! I thought perhaps Louie's background with the Indians would give him an edge toward finding her. I did not have high hopes for him, but he is really a scuzzball to treat Genny as he did and then go for her sister. I hold Ascha even more responsible. She seems spiteful to me. I wonder if she will actually receive any better treatment at his hands, though.

Sayward does deserve some happiness, and Portius needs someone in his life...he is just too isolated. (hide spoiler)]

[Sue]

That's true about Asha, Sara (view spoiler)[ it does seem vindictive. It seemed that abusers are abusive to everyone. maybe if they end up together, he'll give her a longer honeymoon but if it's realistic he'll treat her just as bad eventually. I hope Genny can get away from him. It would be best if he leaves and never comes back at some point. (hide spoiler)]

[Sue]

I finished. I thought it was a great an unexpected ending to a wonderful book (view spoiler)[ I figured that Sayward and Portis would get together but never in the way it happened. It was sad, funny and heartwarming all at the same time.

Ascha and Louie are downright evil. It's one thing to accidentally fall in love but for Louie to keep Genny isolated in the cabin without wood or food and not allow her family to help her is something only a monster would do. Maybe Ascha thought he told Genny but she knew how isolated he kept her and she was sneaking around with him when ever he was back. I hope those two aren't in the next book and that Sulie is found. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I am also looking ahead to the next book and finding out what happens to these characters next, Sue. (view spoiler)[I actually hope to see Ascha one more time, as Louie strands her in some awful place and she has no family to call upon. Genny survived and was better off that Ascha got the "prize".

I feel sure we will find out more about what has happened to Sulie, and Sayward has just embarked on her life. I love that she and Portis are out there working so hard to make something of the farm. Portis was a surprise to me, and I was tickled by the way she got him. (hide spoiler)]

[Lori]

Sara (view spoiler)[I do hope you are right about Sulie that we find out more in the next book.

Sayward’s wedding was quite different. I imagine that this was common since Richter did such extensive research and he was born in 1890 I think so maybe there were family stories or just knowledge passed down about these types of weddings. I like Portis and the fact that he’d probably never ever had a blister in his life, he’ll have to get used to the calluses! (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

LOL. Yes, Lori (view spoiler)[Portis is not going to find himself sitting about shuffling papers in Sayward's company. (hide spoiler)]

[Sue]

Lori wrote: "Sara I do hope you are right about Sulie that we find out more in the next book.

Sayward’s wedding was quite different. I imagine that this was common since Richter did such extensive research an..."

I agree, Lori! Portis is an interesting character for many reasons. I love how he's stepping up with the hard life of planting.

[Connie]

I would love to know more about Portis' background, and why he left Boston to travel to Ohio. He's an eloquent speaker so it seemed that he would have had a good career as a lawyer in a city. Maybe we'll find out in the next book.

[Sue]

Connie wrote: "I would love to know more about Portis' background, and why he left Boston to travel to Ohio. He's an eloquent speaker so it seemed that he would have had a good career as a lawyer in a city. Maybe..."

I agree, Connie. I do think we'll find out more about him in the next one.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

There is definitely an implication that Portis was fleeing a love gone wrong. I also hope for more details in the next book.

[Terry]

I went back and read all the spoilers, and have a couple of further personal experience comments.

Interesting about the allergic reactions to poison oak and poison ivy that some of you have had. Two personal notes: First, when one of my maternal aunts moved up to the mountains, she went out one fall and picked up some pretty leaves that had turned color and put them in a jar -- poison oak! Secondly, I had a pretty bad case of it once which left a scar on one leg, but I don't think I ever had a fever from it. The foothills in the Northern California Sierra gold rush country are filled with poison oak.

A note about Sayward as a oldest child: "Firstborns bask in their parents' presence, which may explain why they sometimes act like mini-adults. They're also diligent and want to excel at everything they do. Younger siblings see them almost as a third parent." -- From Google answers to questions about Firstborns.

In my case, I was a first child of four total. My mother relied on me to help her in almost every chore. She birthed four children in five years (age 18 to 23) and always had her hands full! When I was still a child, I remember changing my little sister's diapers (cloth and safety pins -- no Huggies in those days!). I did dishes, made beds, helped with ironing, helped with vacuuming, dusted furniture, folded laundry, fed the dog, babysat my siblings, did some cooking and baking and some yard work too. So, I didn't find Sayward's taking over to be that unusual. She just stepped into the role which was hers as her mother's helper, a role that older daughters have been playing throughout history.

During the Depression, her mother ran a boarding house, and she did a lot of helping with that, although she was not the oldest daughter.

Oh, one other personal thing about missing children. My mother was abducted by her natural father when she was about five, along with her younger brother, and taken from Sacramento to Denver. My grandmother didn't know where they were for almost a year. Can you imagine? This was about 1936.

[Sue]

Terry wrote: "I went back and read all the spoilers, and have a couple of further personal experience comments.

Interesting about the allergic reactions to poison oak and poison ivy that some of you have had. ..."

That must have been horrific for your Grandmother, Terry. And how confusing for your mom and her brother.

I'm just under a month shy of being a double Irish Twin with my older brother and younger sister. My family was probably different than most in that my brother sister and I all had to take turns on every chore. Nothing was considered by gender or age (except when you started). The favorite chore fore all was mowing the lawn (even when we had a manual mower) and then other outdoor ones. We all took turns with the dishes and other cleaning in equal measure.

[Brian E]

There was no Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in 1941. I knew the story about the Board recommending For Whom the Bell Tolls and the Columbia University President refusing to submit such an offensive book to the Columbia Board of Trustees.
The following is more details on the story, including that the Pulitzer Jury had recommended The Trees at the top of their 5 submitted candidates for the prize. The Pulitzer Board, as is its right, changed the Jury's recommendation and recommended the Hemingway, which was one of the 5 books the Jury presented. A few other worthy candidates are in there too. Here's the story:

https://pulitzernovels.wordpress.com/...

[Terry]

Brian, thanks for that article. The Ox Bow Incident is on my TBR; I will get to it one of these days!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Thanks, Brian. It was very interesting to see what the process was that resulted in no one getting the prize. I also have The Ox-Bow Incident on-hand and unread.

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

Terry wrote: "Brian, thanks for that article. The Ox Bow Incident is on my TBR; I will get to it one of these days!"

I also have it on my TBR list - maybe we can work it into our buddy reads.

[Lori]

I'd be game for that, Katy! Great idea!

At some point should open a thread to discuss ideas for other books we want to add to our continued buddy reads, or just like we've done previously, like we did here, just throw out ideas at the end of a current thread?

I'm sure many of us have some ideas floating around for what this group likes to read. I love that more and more folks continue to join in. Having a schedule of what we want to buddy read was really nice and convenient and got me excited for what was coming up.

[Connie]

The Ox-Bow Incident is on my TBR list too. I would be up for reading it late in the year or early next year. I'm enjoying reading these books set in the West or Mid-West since it's a way of life out of my experience as well as a different era.

[Brian E]

FINISHED THE BOOK
I did enjoy the book, so I rated it 4 stars. While I enjoyed the story’s plotline and the writing style, at the end there were just a couple of bothersome things that affected my not rating this as a 5-star book.

First, while I liked reading about most of the family’s events, I found that all the family members except Sayward and Sulie got a bit annoying. I felt that I cared about the Lucketts as a family unit more than they did. In hindsight, I probably should remember these are very simple folk and not expect too much emotional maturity.

Second, I know Richter did research and was attempting to portray an authentic look at a pioneer family of the time. I thought Richter’s realistic historical, almost documentary prose style was appropriate and ideal to reflect Richter’s intended tone for the story. I enjoyed the style, yet, toward the end, I did find myself yearning for an occasional passage as lyrical as the ones Hardy throws into his rustic tales.

This feeling really hit me as I went straight from reading The Trees to reading Daphne du Maurier's Frenchman's Creek. Reading DDM’s elegant descriptive, almost ornate writing was like getting hit in the face by a glass of cold water.

Of course, I realize that her style is more appropriate for a novel that Amazon calls “a lush, historical drama about love and freedom” rather than the more true-to-life story Richter is telling. As I was reading the early parts of the DDM, I tried to imagine how she would have written The Trees – and soon realized I didn’t have that skilled of an imagination. I do know it would certainly have had a different tone.

[Terry]

Yes, let’s read The Ox Bow Incident as a group!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

We have The Fields in August and The Town in September. Would everyone be good with The Ox-Bow Incident for November or do we need a year-end break and begin again in January? I'm all for doing as Lori suggests and brain-storming books to read together next year. I also liked knowing that we had upcoming reads and being able to schedule them. This is a great group to read with, and I love that we are both continuing and expanding!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Brian wrote: "FINISHED THE BOOK
I did enjoy the book, so I rated it 4 stars. While I enjoyed the story’s plotline and the writing style, at the end there were just a couple of bothersome things that affected my ..."

I understand what you are saying about this being a more sedate, historical read, but I came to love that aspect of the novel. My only complaint would have been that it felt "unfinished" but then it isn't finished, it is just paused.

I'm afraid comparing Richter and du Maurier was a task I wasn't up to, although it made me smile to think about her writing "The Trees". One thing is for sure, we would not be done with Ascha and Louie yet. :o)

[Connie]

Sara wrote: "We have The Fields in August and The Town in September. Would everyone be good with The Ox-Bow Incident for November or do we need a year-end break and begin again in January? I'm all ..."

November would work well, Sara. I'm also OK with January if people want a break.

[Sam]

Sara wrote: "We have The Fields in August and The Town in September. Would everyone be good with The Ox-Bow Incident for November or do we need a year-end break and begin again in January? I'm all ..."

It might be nice if moving to Westerns, to read a series of novels for more depth and comparison. Ox-Bow is the lead novel in Library of America's The Western: Four Classic Novels of the 1940s & 50s: The Ox-Bow Incident / Shane / The Searchers / Warlock and features three other literary classics for example. Perks for discussion could include comparison and also comparison to the films made of them since each novel was made into a respected film. The group need not limit itself to the four selected in that volume but might prefer to choose something like the aforementioned True Grit or The Virginian: A Horseman of the Plains instead.

[Sam]

Brian wrote: "FINISHED THE BOOK
I did enjoy the book, so I rated it 4 stars. While I enjoyed the story’s plotline and the writing style, at the end there were just a couple of bothersome things that affected my ..."

I also finished and share Brian's feelings about the book, I felt the novel was reflective of commercial style and values of the place and time when written and found myself thinking about that most now that I have finished. So melodrama and the friendly but competitive designation of roles to men and women stood out for me. I also would have liked to see the constant elevated threat of the wilderness and other or human coarseness Richter stressed to have been alleviated with more scenes of peaceful beauty or human compassion. There was more than once that I felt Richter's pulp writing background came out. I did not find these reasons to dislike the novel however, and look forward to the next two in the series. I consider this pioneer fiction and my favorite writer of this was James Fenimore Cooper whose Leatherstocking series is classic though some find his period style too verbose, complicated, and distracting. A recent read I finished that compares well to The Trees is The Secret River by Kate Grenville and starts her Thornhill series about pioneer life in Australia.

[Terry]

I would rather take a break and start next year. Meanwhile, let’s gather suggestions.

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "We have The Fields in August and The Town in September. Would everyone be good with The Ox-Bow Incident for November or do we need a year-end break and begin again in January? I'm all ..."

Like Terry, I'd prefer next year also for The Ox-Bow Incident for next year but will try to make whenever is decided.

Remember we also haveLighthouse Island in October (don't mind changing that if others are okay) and A Cry of Angels in November.

[Sue]

My Suggestions for other possibilities for next year:

Any Wallace Stegner I've only read Angle of Repose and it was enough to make me want to make my way through all of his.

Any Edna Ferber I've only read So Big She has at least 2 that take place in Texas

The Son by Philipp Meyer

I'm open to anything else also, just throwing a few out there.

[Sue]

Sam wrote: "Sara wrote: "We have The Fields in August and The Town in September. Would everyone be good with The Ox-Bow Incident for November or do we need a year-end break and begin again in Janu..."

All of those would be good, Sam. I especially want to read
Warlock

[Terry]

How about this schedule for the group?

January — The Ox Bow Incident by Walter van Tilburg Clark

February — True Grit by Charles Portis

March — Warlock by Oakley Hall

April — The Son by Philipp Meyer

May — I would like to propose Whose Names Are Unknown by Sanora Babb. Howard’s review sounds fascinating. It is a complementary book to The Grapes of Wrath.

Did i leave anything out? Is this a good order? Or does it need some mixing up?

Sue, did you want to propose books by Stegner or Ferber? I have already read Angle of Repose and Crossing to Safety. Also So Big, so anything else would interest me.

[Sam]

Just to reaffirm, I only meant my suggestion as a possible approach, not meaning to dictate. Please everyone, if you have other suggestions or preferences, voice them. I read just about everything so I will go with whatever is there.

[Sue]

Terry wrote: "How about this schedule for the group?

January — The Ox Bow Incident by Walter van Tilburg Clark

February — True Grit by Charles Portis

March — Warlock by Oakley Hall

April — The Son by Philipp..."

Sounds good, Terry. Would you mind switching True Grit and The Son though? April is a crazy month for me and I've already read True Grit not that long ago.

For Stegner, how about The Big Rock Candy Mountain?

I'm hoping Ferber's Giant wins in the SLT group so we can wait on her.

[Sue]

Oh and Whose Names Are Unknown sounds wonderful. I think you should definitely add it, Terry.

[Lori]

Here are a couple of suggestions I've been thinking about:

Ride the Wind by Lucia St. Clair Robson

I Heard the Owl Call My Name by Margaret Craven

True Grit and The Son are both excellent. I've had Giant on my list for this year, but don't know if it will happen. The other 2 I'm not familiar with so will look those up. If Howard recommended one of them, it ought to be good.

[Lori]

Sue wrote: "Oh and Whose Names Are Unknown sounds wonderful. I think you should definitely add it, Terry."

Yes, I just looked it up and already had it on my tbr.

[Sue]

Lori wrote: "Here are a couple of suggestions I've been thinking about:

Ride the Wind by Lucia St. Clair Robson

I Heard the Owl Call My Name by [author:Margaret Crav..."

Those both sound excellent Lori.

[Terry]

Okay, I will update tonight after a few more people have the opportunity to check in. then, maybe let that settle in a day before sending to Sara.

[Terry]

I just tried to update, but had issues. I will try again.

[Pharmacdon]

I was reading comments about a historical novel that I was interested in reading, and one of the main complaints was the use of words that were not appropriate for the book's time era. Now, I am reading "The Trees," a book that calls trees "butts." This book is thick in terminologies and colloquialisms as dogberries.
My question is, do you forgive an author's use of current words or do you prefer Conrad Richter's approach to writing?

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I like the use of historical accuracy, even in language. Especially since we now have Google and it is easy enough to research a term you are not familiar with. In most cases, you know what is being referred to, even if the term is no longer used, and it adds a flavor of authenticity to the dialog.

Of course, I don't want it to be so prevalent that I have to stop every other line to look up things, but I think Richter gets it right.