The Black Veil (hosted by Connie) - 1st Summer Read 2021

[Diane]

I have no idea why execution occurred to me, but it instantly sprang to mind. Either that or a murder attempt of some sort. Why the widow came all that way in search of an unknown doctor who might help her was a bigger mystery to me. And why the doctor would feel so responsible for her that he would help her out for the rest of her life was another question. Maybe guilt that he couldn't help her, or because she was his first client, but it probably went over well with Victorian readers to add that bit at the end that he was rewarded by Providence with success and a blessed life because of his charity.

[Sara]

I also felt that he took care of her the rest of her life to be a bit strange and over-reaching, but I did put it down to the extreme impact this would have had as a first patient. In many ways, she was the first patient, since the "patient" was already dead.

[Connie]

I wonder if the doctor was Dickens idea of an idealized man. Dickens was very good about taking care of a large group of relatives--his parents, Kate's sisters. He also supported the Urania Cottage, a home for destitute or "fallen women."

The idea of charity, especially toward women, was important to Dickens at a young age.

It didn't seem totally realistic that the doctor would take care of the woman for the rest of her life. But as Diane said, it was an ending that the Victorian readers would have liked. We like to think that a good life will be rewarded.

[Petra]

The method of death took me by surprise, too.

I wonder whether Dickens meant this is a story about the disparity between rich and poor. The doctor has a comfortable life and looks forward to more comfort in his future. The veiled lady has none of that and looks forward only to more misery.
We saw the misery of the poor as the doctor made his way to the lady's residence. He sees all this and, despite being afraid, is brave enough to walk through it and try to help.

By helping the veiled woman, he is alleviating some of the misery of the poor. Dickens was a strong believer (I think?) in the power of helping the poor. Although one man cannot help the Many, one man can help one person and that's what the doctor did.
He was a good man, the doctor. The woman still lost her son and felt that misery but she had some comfort and security afterwards.

[Connie]

Petra wrote: "The method of death took me by surprise, too.

I wonder whether Dickens meant this is a story about the disparity between rich and poor. The doctor has a comfortable life and looks forward to more ..."

Great thoughts, Petra! I think the story is making a statement about poverty, and impoverished people often turning to crime.

I like that idea that one man can help one person, even if he doesn't have the resources to help many.

Dickens father was put in debtor's prison when he was a young boy, and Dickens was sent to work in a blacking factory. That experience never left him, and he had a great empathy for poor people.

[Connie]

Here are some articles about how Dickens helped women by contributing to the support of the Urania Cottage, and being involved in its operations:

https://victorianweb.org/authors/dick...

https://revisitingdickens.wordpress.c...

The cottage is named after the goddess of heavenly love, Aphrodite Urania (as opposed to Aphrodite, the goddess of physical love). There was room for 13 women who usually resided there for a year. Many destitute women turned to prostitution because they were impoverished.

[Sara]

Also love your thoughts, Petra. The idea that "one man can help one person" would have appealed to Dickens. He not only helped others, but he encouraged his friends to do the same, and he reached out to the least pitied or helped people in his world, fallen women, who would have been considered beyond redemption by most.

[Erin]

I was SO sure that the woman behind the black veil was Rose, but I guess that was just Dickens's red herrings at work.

[Lori]

I was also taken by surprise by the manor of death. Although thinking about the part when the doctor is ushered into the parlor to wait with the door shut only put him at more of an edge and kept the secrecy going. The sounds of the thumps and something heavy going up the stairs (in hindsight) should have been a clue and it definitely aroused my attention. I had a feeling it was a body but never thought it was from a hanging. Diane, you are quite intuitive!

The comments on poverty and Dickens feelings regarding the poor make this story even more interesting. It adds a new layer that to a reader who doesn't know about Dickens would only see the descriptors as adding to the spooky atmosphere.

I wondered if the Victorians believed a body could be brought to life and this was why the woman asked the doctor to try to revive her son? I know Victorians were obsessed with death but I don't know what their views of the afterlife would have been.

[Diane]

What little I know about the times does include the fact that people were terrified of being buried alive, and that is where the custom of sitting up with the body arose from. Maybe the mother simply wanted to make sure he was truly dead, and to give him a chance if not.

[Connie]

Lori wrote: "I was also taken by surprise by the manor of death. Although thinking about the part when the doctor is ushered into the parlor to wait with the door shut only put him at more of an edge and kept t..."

The Victorians were into Spiritualism and tried to communicate with the dead (ghosts). So I would assume many Victorians believed in an afterlife.

https://victorianweb.org/victorian/re...

[Connie]

There were also "Safety Coffins" that had bells in case people were buried alive, and revived in the coffin. The person was probably unconscious, and was thought to be dead.

The expression "Saved by the bell" comes from this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_...

[Lori]

Thanks for the article, Connie. That makes more sense knowing the way Christmas tales contained ghosts like A Christmas Carol. The spiritualism adds yet another creepy element

Diane, that's very reasonable, given the idea of being buried alive.

[Sara]

Reanimation was something that had been considered...we have Frankenstein, which is earlier than this text, to attest to that.

Men have been brought to life, before,
when unskilful people have given them up for lost; and men
have died, who might have been restored, if proper means
had been resorted to. Don’t let him lie here, sir, without one
effort to save him! This very moment life may be passing
away.

She was desperate, but she obviously believed the spirit might be recalled to the body.

Are we discussing the end of the tale now?

[Lori]

Sara, I hadn't even thought of Frankenstein. Excellent point!

[Connie]

Sara wrote: "Reanimation was something that had been considered...we have Frankenstein, which is earlier than this text, to attest to that.

Men have been brought to life, before,
when unskilful people have g..."

Yes, we are discussing the end of the story. So don't worry about spoilers.

Interesting thoughts about Frankenstein!

[Sara]

Thanks, Connie. One of the things that struck me hard was that this man was hanged and his confederate was released for lack of evidence. That must have preyed upon this woman's mind terribly. Dickens seemed to be making a point of the injustice of the system, despite making it clear that this man was guilty as charged.

That this was an act of total desperation on the part of the mother is evident by the description of the corpse. Hangings generally break the neck and the doctor notes that The throat was swollen, and a livid mark encircled it. I wonder, wouldn't there have been a doctor present at the execution to pronounce that the man was indeed dead anyway?

[Elizabeth A.G.]

Being new to his profession, the doctor had not yet been exposed to the effects of the miseries endured by the sick and not hardened or calloused to human suffering, either physical or psychological, especially in impoverished areas. This might explain his attention to the woman who elicited his sympathy. He still feels for others.." As stated in the story, "there was a desperate earnestness in this woman's manner, that went to the young man's heart." Also, being a new doctor, perhaps the woman thought he would be more modern than an "old school" doctor in treating patients with new remedies - even to returning them to life if treatment was received quickly after death.

I think he was extremely sympathetic toward the woman's loss and grieving; when deciding to go to the woman's house, he stated to her that he "incurs none" (responsibility) for the delay in his visit or for possibly being unable to help the person she wants him to see. So I didn't think he was feeling guilty when the hanged man could not be revived as was the hope of the woman. Instead of being angered or put out by being dragged out into the dregs of the town for a useless cause, he never berated her but tried to soothe her frenzy. His opening of the window curtain to shed truth and light on the person's death and at that moment the woman shedding her veil revealing her face for the first time, indicates her realization that this death was final. It is then that the woman reveals this person as her son and then she collapses in utter grief and mental anguish. I think Dickens thought of the doctor as an ideal man as well as the ideal medical practitioner and his kindness was rewarded not only by the thriving practice brought to him through the prayers of the widow to Heaven, but also true gratification "to his heart" when remembering his first patient.

A quote I like that reflects the final theme of the story:


Dickens has portrayed doctors in his novels as well, but I doubt any as devoted and humble as the doctor in The Blue Veil. As we read his novels in this group I want to see what Dickens thinks about any doctors or the medical profession in them.

[Connie]

That's a lovely quote, Elizabeth.

His kindness and concern probably also endeared him to his future patients and his family. Blessings from Heaven are wonderful, but we all have to help make our own happiness by treating people well too.

[Connie]

Sara wrote: "Thanks, Connie. One of the things that struck me hard was that this man was hanged and his confederate was released for lack of evidence. That must have preyed upon this woman's mind terribly. Dick..."

Yes, there were doctors that examined the people who were executed. There were cases when it took a person a long time to die if the drop (of the rope) was made too small by an executioner with little experience.

This is from the capital punishment in the UK website:
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/ha...

Surviving the gallows.
There are several recorded instances of revival in this country during the 17th and 18th centuries. One of the most famous is that of John Smith, hanged at Tyburn on Christmas Eve 1705. Having been turned off the back of the cart, he dangled for 15 minutes until the crowd began to shout "reprieve," whereupon he was cut down and taken to a nearby house where he soon recovered.
He was asked what it had felt like to be hanged and this is what he told his rescuers:
"When I was turned off I was, for some time, sensible of very great pain occasioned by the weight of my body and felt my spirits in strange commotion, violently pressing upwards. Having forced their way to my head I saw a great blaze or glaring light that seemed to go out of my eyes in a flash and then I lost all sense of pain. After I was cut down, I began to come to myself and the blood and spirits forcing themselves into their former channels put me by a prickling or shooting into such intolerable pain that I could have wished those hanged who had cut me down."
Sixteen year old William Duell was hanged, along with four others, at Tyburn on the 24th of November 1740. He had been convicted of raping and murdering Sarah Griffin and was therefore to be anatomised after execution. He was taken to Surgeon’s Hall, where it was noticed that he was showing signs of life. He was revived and returned to Newgate later that day. The authorities decided to reprieve him and his sentence was commuted to transportation. There are several other instances where people, including at least two women, survived their hanging. See also the “Half hanged”.

[Curt]

Nidhi wrote: "Why did women wear veil? ( at that time)

In India it’s religious, Hindu brides always cover their face, it ( face) should never be visible to menfolk but as they age these restrictions are somewha..." In Victorian era dress, it was a sign of mourning. Hence to hide tears awash on the face. The woman was required to wear mourning dress, or weeds, for a certain period of time after the death of a husband. It was primarily developed by women, not put upon them by men.

[Connie]

Curtis, I'm glad you're joining us. Were you surprised by the end of the story?

[Diane]

That's great information Connie. I think that answers the questions about the mother seeking a doctor. Not to resurrect him, but to make sure he was really dead. What an awful time to live in poverty and ignorance. Not that there is any good time.

[Petra]

Sara wrote: "Thanks, Connie. One of the things that struck me hard was that this man was hanged and his confederate was released for lack of evidence. That must have preyed upon this woman's mind terribly. Dickens seemed to be making a point of the injustice of the system, despite making it clear that this man was guilty as charged..."

Sara, thanks for bringing this up. It struck me when I read the story but I'd forgotten about this "tiny" fact of looking at the evidence differently for different people, giving different results and life outcomes.
It struck me, too, how justice was different for two equally guilty people of the same crime. One lives; one dies. Both are guilty.

What also struck me was the the first crime committed by the son was because of poverty. He wasn't a bad person; he needed to survive with food, housing, etc and had no options. Not that this is an excuse but it is a reason to move into a world of crime in the first place.

Had the woman had the help of a person such as the doctor while her son was young, he would have had other opportunities and not moved into crime (probably....possibly).
Help makes all the difference for so many outcomes.

[Connie]

Diane wrote: "That's great information Connie. I think that answers the questions about the mother seeking a doctor. Not to resurrect him, but to make sure he was really dead. What an awful time to live in pover..."

They would have had a doctor at the execution, but the mother was still holding on to a sliver of hope. It's hard to think rationally when a person is so emotionally distraught. Her son was the only person she had in the world--no other friends or family. No wonder the Heavens blessed the doctor's kindness and generosity to this lonely, heartbroken woman!

[Connie]

Petra wrote: "Sara wrote: "Thanks, Connie. One of the things that struck me hard was that this man was hanged and his confederate was released for lack of evidence. That must have preyed upon this woman's mind t..."

Petra, that's a good point about how a little help can change a life.
The sentences were very harsh for stealing, even when an impoverished person was desperate to feed a child. Things are not perfect now, but at least there is a safety net of shelters, food stamps, and soup kitchens.

[Sara]

Great point, Petra, and one I am sure Dickens would have been happy came across. It is harrowing to think how precarious life was for people at this time--if you stole you would hang, if you didn't you might starve--not much of a choice.

[Sue]

When I read the veiled woman’s statement, about a man who wasn’t dead but might be in the morning, I did consider someone who had been sentenced to be hanged. I think I was almost seeing it as a riddle. Executions were always early in the morning, I believe.

Thanks for the information about the history of those who survived hanging. I knew it had happened but not details.

[Connie]

Sue wrote: "When I read the veiled woman’s statement, about a man who wasn’t dead but might be in the morning, I did consider someone who had been sentenced to be hanged. I think I was almost seeing it as a ri..."

You and Diane get the award for figuring out the riddle, Sue!

[Sara]

I was thinking the same, kudos to you and Diane for being so perceptive.

[Elizabeth A.G.]

It seems in her frenzied and mad state the woman, not wanting to yet admit the reality of her son's death, did hold out some hope that her son could be revived. When the doctor exclaims the man is dead her response is to jump up and beating her hands together states:
"Oh, don't say so, sir! I can't bear it. Men have been brought to life, before, when skilful people have given them up for lost; and men have died, who might have been restored , if proper means had been resorted to. Don't let him lie here, sir, without one effort to save him! This very moment life may be passing away. Do try, sir, - do for Heaven's sake!"

She had probably heard of the cases of revival after hanging. She wants to save her son who is now beyond saving. The woman is in a complete frenzy and when the curtain is pulled back to shed light on the truth, the death of her son can no longer be denied - perhaps a lucid moment in that realization as she collapses without the veil covering her face. The veil has not only acted to prevent others from viewing her face, but also obscured her own vision, metaphorically, from the finality of the death.

[Nidhi]

I was nowhere near the plot. I thought the lady knew of a pre mediated design of murder and she for some reason cannot go to police.

And if she had not mentioned the patient being a man I would have thought she is her suicide and wanted to be saved.

[Sue]

I feel like this is my moment of perception for the year so far :-)

[Connie]

Elizabeth A.G. wrote: "It seems in her frenzied and mad state the woman, not wanting to yet admit the reality of her son's death, did hold out some hope that her son could be revived. When the doctor exclaims the man is ..."

That's a wonderful quote that you pulled out, Elizabeth.

I like the metaphor about the black veil also obscuring her vision from facing the truth about his death.

[Connie]

Nidhi wrote: "I was nowhere near the plot. I thought the lady knew of a pre mediated design of murder and she for some reason cannot go to police.

And if she had not mentioned the patient being a man I would ha..."

It was fun for us all to guess, Nidhi. I also didn't know what was going to happen, and never expected an execution.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Apropos the location of Walworth, this map of Dickensian locations: LINK HERE shows you at H10.

It was a very poor area, as Charles Dickens describes so well. Mr Tibbs - in The Boarding-House, another one of the Sketches by Boz - also has to move there. Another mention is of Mr. Jagger's the lawyer's clerk John Wemmick, who built himself a very unusual home (view spoiler)[ modelled as a castle, complete with a drawbridge, cannon and moat (hide spoiler)], in Walworth in Great Expectations.

[Connie]

Thanks, Jean. I'll have to remember to look for John Wemmick's house when I read "Great Expectations" someday.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

You can't miss it Connie; it's very quirky :)

[Connie]

"The Black Veil" was Inspired by Dickens' Visit to Newgate Prison

Dickens had an interest in prisons ever since his father was imprisoned as a debtor in Marshalsea. In November 1835, Dickens visited Newgate Prison for a tour.

His sketch, A Visit to Newgate, was written for the collected edition of "Sketches by Boz" which was published in February 1836. His Newgate sketch is an interesting, sensitive look at the prisoners locked in the prison and the family members visiting them. It ends by imagining a prisoner in his last hours before his death by hanging. I felt that it was one of his better short works.

The text of A Visit to Newgate:
https://www.charlesdickenspage.com/vi...

Dickens' fictional tale, The Black Veil, was also inspired by Dickens' visit to the prison. Dickens also used Newgate Prison in some of his novels such as Oliver Twist, Barnaby Rudge, and Great Expectations.

[Nidhi]

There is a collection of recollections on jails,
In Jail with Charles Dickens by Alfred Trumble , on project Gutenberg. It has descriptions of jails which Dickens used in his books.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Thanks Connie! More great info :) Newgate Prison is also on the map at D9, on the other side of the Thames.

[Connie]

Nidhi wrote: "There is a collection of recollections on jails,
In Jail with Charles Dickens by Alfred Trumble , on project Gutenberg. It has descriptions of jails which Dickens used in his books."

That looks fascinating, Nidhi! I'm going to read some of the Newgate section. It does look like there are quotes from some of his novels in the collection. So there probably are SPOILERS for readers who have not read "Oliver Twist," "Barnaby Ridge," and "Great Expectations" in the Newgate section.

In Jail with Charles Dickens

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34112...

[Lori]

Thanks for the map, Jean. It's interesting to see how big and spread out London was even then. Walworth is quite out of the way from main civilization, it appears. Sad that the crime hasn't been cleaned up even today.

Thanks for the info on Newgate Prison, Connie. Seems odd to want to tour a prison but that would be the best way to see firsthand the conditions to be able to write about them. I wonder if Dickens talked to any of the prisoners?

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

And thanks Nidhi, too!

I was just about to say how fascinated with the whole process of death Charles Dickens was. (I already mentioned him viewing corpses in the Paris morgue, and attending a public hanging.) Yes, he was familiar with Frankenstein, as it had been written in 1818.

Charles Dickens's early contributions to "Bentley's Miscellany" show his initial cynicism at the whole idea, but even an early work like The Black Veil shows how fascinated he already was. He was to return time and time again to the idea of the moment of death, suspended animation etc.

Both Charles Dickens and Edgar Allan Poe were interested in mesmerism, and Charles Dickens completely changed his views about it. He studied various practioners and developed some skill at it himself, successfully using hypnosis on his wife, sister-in-law and several friends. One French woman, Augusta de la Rue, became rather too dependent on Charles Dickens's treatment.

The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar by Edgar Allan Poe was published later than this, in 1845, but it too involves mesmerism and a possible reanimation of a corpse. But it is dealt with in a more explicit way.

However, this book The Night Side of Dickens: Cannibalism, Passion, Necessity by Harry Stone goes a little further. It may sound sensationalist, but is by a Californian State University professor, who has already written a few books on Charles Dickens.

Yes Lori, Charles Dickens always made a point of talking to the prisoners when he visited gaols, whether in England, Italy or the USA.

[Connie]

Thanks for pointing out Newgate Prison on the map, Jean. The original prison was part of a gate in the Roman London Wall which encircled an area north of the Thames.

For a map of the location of the Roman London Wall:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_...

[Sara]

Thank you, Jean, Connie and Nidhi for all the information and references. The map is truly awesome and will be a bit of reference material worth hanging on to and referencing frequently. Something to love about Dickens, and that sets him apart from so many other writers, is his willingness to witness the worst of places and people and know what he was talking about first hand.

[Nidhi]

Just a word about the end of the story The Black Veil ..... I liked the ending which is a ‘specialty ‘ of Dickens. Dickens celebrates Humanity.

When I was 16 I read the first unabridged edition of A Tale of Two Cities, at that age i couldn’t put in words the effect Dickens work had on me.

Then in my post graduation I presented a seminar on Dickens ‘Humanitarianism In Dickens works ‘ .

Now I know why he is irreplaceable in list of my favourite authors.

[Sara]

How many writers do you know who could generate this kind of discussion with a short-story? Not even a handful, I would say. Makes him very special indeed.

[Connie]

Nidhi wrote: "Just a word about the end of the story The Black Veil ..... I liked the ending which is a ‘specialty ‘ of Dickens. Dickens celebrates Humanity.

When I was 16 I read the first unabridged edition o..."

I'm so glad you're reading with us, Nidhi, since you have so much appreciation for his empathy and good works.

[Connie]

Sara wrote: "How many writers do you know who could generate this kind of discussion with a short-story? Not even a handful, I would say. Makes him very special indeed."

Dickens' life is every bit as interesting as his stories, and we cannot really separate them.