The Black Veil (hosted by Connie) - 1st Summer Read 2021

[Elizabeth A.G.]

Thank you, Connie for choosing this story and leading such a great discussion of The Black Veil and to all in the group for the added references that inform us of Dickens' London and of the sociological and psychological impacts of poverty and environment. Also for the map provided by Jean of Dickens' London - I have bookmarked that for future readings of the author.

Dickens is a master at the scrupulous exactness of his geographical locations, living conditions of the abject poor, and the psyche of the disturbed mind that create a sense of suspense, fright, and tension at one end of the scale; then, at the other end of the scale, presents the ideals of humanity for caring, sympathy, and support - lending the innocent down-trodden a hand to ease their suffering. There is quite a lot packed into this short story!

Some interesting insights into Dickens' style can be found in the link below from a student thesis that focuses on the literary geography of Charles Dickens - skip through the thesis to pages 26-31 of the text. (sidebar pages 37-42)

https://digitalcommons.unomaha.edu/cg...

[Diane]

This story was a wonderful way to ease into reading Dickens, since I recently joined this group. These short summer reads are perfect in between other books. Connie, your leadership and research into this one really made it special, and I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion. I'm looking forward to the next one.

[Sara]

I would like to add my kudos, Connie, for a job well done. You added a tremendous depth to this read with your guidance and your research, and as always, you and our other Dickensians helped me to see elements I might have otherwise missed or glossed over.

[Petra]

Connie, I add my thanks and appreciation to the efforts you put into this read. It was really enjoyable to be part of such a lively discussion.

It's amazing that such a short story can invoke so much insightful and interesting discussion. Dickens is a wonder.

Thank you, Connie, for leading this read. I enjoyed both the story and the group discussion.

[Connie]

Elizabeth A.G. wrote: "Thank you, Connie for choosing this story and leading such a great discussion of The Black Veil and to all in the group for the added references that inform us of Dickens' London and of the sociolo..."

That's an interesting thesis about literary geography, Elizabeth. I pulled out a few quotes from p 25-26:

"Sociological novelists such as Charles Dickens, Upton Sinclair, and George Eliot have focused their writings on the relationship between characters and the society in which they live."

"Dickens' literary critics and biographers reveal his concern for the social and environmental problems of nineteenth-century London and his desire to use his writing to bring attention to these problems. Therefore Dickens' writings are appropriate for geographic investigation and focus on a fundamental theme in geography--human-environment interactions."

[Connie]

Elizabeth, Diane, Petra, and Sara--I'm happy you enjoyed the story. The ideas and references from all the Dickensian members added a great deal to our discussion, and was a big help.

During the weekend I'll add a few other references about Dickens and Newgate, etc.

[Connie]

Do you have a favorite illustrator?



Harry Furniss

Note the skull sitting on the shelf in both Harry Furniss' and Fred Barnard's illustrations.



Fred Barnard



Fred Barnard
From the Victorian Web

[Sue]

And I will add my thanks too, Connie. I started by enjoying this story but with this great discussion I learned more about Dickens and England and English history. Well done.

[Debra Diggs]

Thanks Connie. This group read was great!

[Antoinette]

My kudos as well, Connie. Great discussion and great info provided by you. Really enjoyed this read:)

[Lori]

Fabulous job leading the first summer read, Connie! Always a very lively discussion and so much interesting information. Thanks for a fun read!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Connie - this is a stellar thread, thank you! And thank you both for leading it so well and for your extra research. You have set the bar high for our summer reads!

It's lovely too to see newer members, or those who prefer a less familiar work by Charles Dickens joining in, such as Nidhi and Diane.

This is timetabled for a few more days, to allow others to join in, but of course it may draw to a natural close before that.

[Sara]

The Barnard illustrations are marvelous...so dark and expressive. The skull would have been an automatic symbol for "doctor" in these days--great catch!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

My kindle copy has the first Fred Barnard one, but the definition is not as good as Connie's reproduction. The figure in the veil comes out as a inky black patch, which is partly why I wondered if it was a ghost!

I like the "dream figure" in that by Harry Furniss. He is always more fanciful, and makes the boy look like a little goblin :)

[Sara]

In the Furniss, having the veiled woman standing ominously outside the door, looking in, is pretty masterful as well. The sense that she can see others but they cannot see her adds an eerie feeling to the drawing.

[Diane]

Love those illustrations. The first one by Furniss is exactly how I pictured that opening scene.

[Connie]

Dickens spoke out for prison reform, and against public executions and solitary confinement. Since "The Black Veil" involved hanging, I'm including some information about the crowds and Dickens' reaction. People would walk miles or take special trains to attend an execution. It was a form of street entertainment.

It was Dangerous to View an Execution

Crushing injuries and fainting were common. In 1807 at Newgate Prison, 27 people died and 70 more required hospital treatment.

Public executions were a place of crime, especially pick pocketing. Fights broke out, and drunkenness was common.

Public executions could also make martyrs of the criminals.

The police and prison authorities had to spend considerable funds on crowd control. It was also expensive to erect the gallows outside each time instead of having a permanent structure within the prison.

[Connie]

Dickens and Thackeray Attend an Execution

Some people would rent rooms or windows in nearby buildings to get a good view of the gallows. On July 6, 1840, Dickens and his fellow writer, William Makepeace Thackeray, viewed the public hanging of Francois Benjamin Courvoidier. The prisoner was a valet who was convicted for murdering his employer. 40,000 people witnessed the execution. Thackeray wrote an essay about their experience titled "On Going to See a Man Hanged."

Dickens was disturbed by the levity that accompanied the execution. He wrote in the "Daily News":

"From the moment of my arrival . . . down to the time when I saw the body with its dangling head, being carried on a wooden bier to the occasion . . . nothing but ribaldry, debauchery, levity, drunkenness, and flaunting vice."

Our group's spring read, "The Victorian City," has more information about public executions in the chapter titled "Street Violence."

There is also lots of information online about the 1849 execution of the Mannings. If you are interested in reading Dickens' letter to The Times:

https://www.charlesdickenspage.com/pu...

[Connie]

It's been a pleasure to read this story with the group. I'll keep checking the thread for more comments.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Connie wrote: "Dickens and Thackeray Attend an Execution ..."

This is exactly what I was thinking of earlier :) Thank you so much for the post(s) Connie, and all the earlier ones too! It's been an amazingly good summer read.

[Petra]

That letter made me cringe. What a horrible spectacle the crowd seems to have made. To think that a human being would lose their life and the mob held a party, of sorts. It brings a shudder to me.
Dickens is correct when he says it makes a man "feel ashamed of the form he wore".
The letter tells a gruesome tale.

[Petra]

I like all the illustrations. They capture the mood of the setting perfectly.

I like the dreaminess of Henry Furniss' drawing, showing the Doctor's sweetheart, as well as the Veiled Lady. It's a remarkable contrast of Life & Circumstances.
The veiled lady is a dark & heavy outline; the sweetheart light & airy.

[Connie]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Connie wrote: "Dickens and Thackeray Attend an Execution ..."

This is exactly what I was thinking of earlier :) Thank you so much for the post(s) Connie, and all the earlier ones too! It's been an..."

The wonderful thing about Dickens is that every time you read the story you find another layer!

[Connie]

Petra wrote: "That letter made me cringe. What a horrible spectacle the crowd seems to have made. To think that a human being would lose their life and the mob held a party, of sorts. It brings a shudder to me. ..."

I can't imagine wanting to attend an execution. I have to leave the room when fighters duke it out on TV!

[Connie]

Petra wrote: "I like all the illustrations. They capture the mood of the setting perfectly.

I like the dreaminess of Henry Furniss' drawing, showing the Doctor's sweetheart, as well as the Veiled Lady. It's a r..."

The Henry Furniss illustration is my favorite, but Fred Barnard's illustrations are wonderful too.

[Laysee]

I am late to the party. I finished reading this story yesterday and then feverishly read the comments on this group discussion. Oh, I've learned so much about Dickens and the social concerns which shaped his writing, the England of his time, and the horrors of the public executions. These really enhanced my appreciation of this work. Those illustrations are wonderful! They were how I imagined the opening scene and the doctor's visit. Special thanks to Connie for the background research and for leading this enlightening discussion. Thank you, Jean and all the Dickensians for enriching my reading experience.

[Connie]

Laysee wrote: "I am late to the party. I finished reading this story yesterday and then feverishly read the comments on this group discussion. Oh, I've learned so much about Dickens and the social concerns which ..."

I'm glad you enjoyed reading the story with us, Laysee.

[Sara]

The letter is chilling, Connie. He says it made his blood run cold to watch this and it made mine the same just to read of it. I have never understood why anyone would have the desire to witness such an act, or celebrate it, although we know such was common in earlier times, and there is surely evidence of this kind of base behavior even today.

[Connie]

Sara wrote: "The letter is chilling, Connie. He says it made his blood run cold to watch this and it made mine the same just to read of it. I have never understood why anyone would have the desire to witness su..."

I suppose people have always had a fascination with crime and sensational stories, and it was street entertainment. But an execution is the last thing I would want to witness.

Madame Tussaud also made wax figures of the famous criminals in the Chamber of Horrors. People were fascinated by crime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber...

[Connie]

The Capital Punishment Amendment Act in 1868 put an end to public executions in the UK. They were held inside the jail.

Dickens wrote many letters to newspapers over the years condemning public executions, solitary confinement, and other prison reforms.

[Sara]

Unfortunately, it probably is human nature. Perhaps we satisfy the bloodlust these days with TV and movies. I don't even like to see graphic violence there, but I know many people who feed off of it.

[Connie]

Sara wrote: "Unfortunately, it probably is human nature. Perhaps we satisfy the bloodlust these days with TV and movies. I don't even like to see graphic violence there, but I know many people who feed off of it."

I think you are right. Even when you go back to ancient texts like "The Odyssey" or the "Old Testament of the Bible," things were bloody and gruesome. People passed on those stories to the next generation orally until they were finally written down.

[Elizabeth A.G.]

That hangings became a public fascination and form of entertainment certainly makes me shudder and also the fact that a good number of such hangings were for relatively minor offenses with the justice system being anything but just.

A similar phenomenon can be seen with the obsession of the public with observing the aftermath of a murder, especially if the murder was particularly gruesome, or of a high profile person, or the result of a serial killer. Lucy Worsley in her book The Art of the English Murder: From Jack the Ripper and Sherlock Holmes to Agatha Christie and Alfred Hitchcock, describes how the fixation and public fascination with murder crimes became a form of public entertainment that ultimately inspired many literary works, art, and true-crime journalism. Willing audiences with morbid curiosities assured the success of the murder mystery genre.

[Connie]

Elizabeth A.G. wrote: "That hangings became a public fascination and form of entertainment certainly makes me shudder and also the fact that a good number of such hangings were for relatively minor offenses with the just..."

It sounds like an interesting book, Elizabeth.

[Franky]

I have been busy the past few days so haven't been able chime in but have loved reading the comments and discussion. And I love those illustrations Connie. Helps me visualize the story even more!

[Connie]

Franky wrote: "I have been busy the past few days so haven't been able chime in but have loved reading the comments and discussion. And I love those illustrations Connie. Helps me visualize the story even more!"

Everyone has been wonderful about contributing ideas to the discussion. Both of the illustrators were very talented.

[Angela]

Hi all, wow, that story was friggin creepy. I had no idea who the patient might be, so a lot.of you have better imaginations than I. And it so look reminded me of Poe, agree with everyone who thought so. I am bringing up the rear, but super glad I read it. Such a difference from the novels. Looking forward to the next one.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Good to hear from you Laysee :)

I particularly like "Dickensians!"' short reads, because we all have time to fit one in now and then, even if it's not possible to commit to a long novel. And for newbies it gives you a taste of the group. As Connie says, there are so many layers in this short story!

Connie I had no idea that the "Chamber of Horrors" had closed! (in 2016). " Madame Tussauds" is one of London's most popular attractions, and older children especially used to clamour to go in the Chamber of Horrors. It was renovated as recently as 1996.

I think Victorian descriptions on the written page are as far as I would like to go though, so its replacement with "the Sherlock Holmes Experience" is fine by me.

[Connie]

Angela wrote: "Hi all, wow, that story was friggin creepy. I had no idea who the patient might be, so a lot.of you have better imaginations than I. And it so look reminded me of Poe, agree with everyone who thoug..."

It was definitely creepy and mysterious! Dickens was a master at making some social commentary without detracting from the story. I'm happy you found the time to fit "The Black Veil" into your busy schedule, Angela.

[Sue]

I read this short story this evening, and then read through this discussion. Thank you to everyone who made such insightful comments. It added a huge amount to my enjoyment of this story. I particularly liked the explanation of the Gothic elements.

It's extraordinary that Dickens could pack so much into just a few pages. So different from his main novels, which are huge!

[Angela]

Thank you Connie! And Sue.....agreed. I thought about that story all night after having read it. Such a different Dickens than I've read before. What a talented writer to be able to pull that off.

[Connie]

Sue wrote: "I read this short story this evening, and then read through this discussion. Thank you to everyone who made such insightful comments. It added a huge amount to my enjoyment of this story. I particu..."

It's great that you were able to join us in reading the story, Sue. I think Dickens was having fun with the Gothic elements, and added some social commentary for us to think about.

[Connie]

Angela wrote: "Thank you Connie! And Sue.....agreed. I thought about that story all night after having read it. Such a different Dickens than I've read before. What a talented writer to be able to pull that off."

Angela, one of the great things about this group is that Jean has taught us all a lot about Dickens the man, as well as Dickens the author. While he wasn't perfect, he was amazing in the amount he accomplished in his life.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Connie, I am blushing here! Thank you for your kind words :)

I am so happy and feel honoured to be surrounded by so many who are both knowledgeable - and thirst for more - and also those who are new to Charles Dickens, and find such delight in discovering the works of this amazing author. Sharing in that experience is priceless, and it is all a joy :)

Sue - it's lovely to see you again! I hope all those who have joined - and are still joining - in this group read, led so amazingly well by Connie, will return for more of our summer short stories.

[Sue]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Sue - it's lovely to see you again! ..."

Thanks Jean!

[Omar]

Hi, so late to the discussion, will share my thoughts before I read the previous posts as I am "more than half as sleep and less half awake" myself.

I enjoyed the story very much, I didn't expect it would be so mysterious, and loved the way Dickens sets up the initial scene to be so comfortable in the "cheerful fire" despite the bad weather, and then he very quickly fills us with dread just by meeting the woman in the black veil.

the moment I read of her attire and her being "perfectly motionless", made me think of her as death itself, and that someone was about to die (I feared for the doctor).

It went over my head that the lady was in mourning, and that it wasn't revealed on the first night who she mourned, later revealed it was her soon to be deceased son. Was she really hoping the doctor would resurrect her son?

what I liked best from the story is the juxtaposition of the living conditions of the doctor (without any patients yet living comfortably by a cheerful fire despite the rain outside) and the peoples of walworth (that lived in such conditions that the fire served no comfortable purpose even thou it isn't raining at the time of the doctors visit)

In the end the doctor was repaid heavenly due to the kindness displayed towards the woman in the black veil. was he affected so much by this first patient to never grow "callous to human suffering"?

[Connie]

Omar, that's so interesting that you wondered if the veiled woman was death itself before you realized she was in mourning. She almost looked like the Grim Reaper, hooded in black. She was in such emotional distress that she was hoping that the doctor could bring her son back to life.

Good thoughts about the living conditions of the poor. Dickens advocated for the poor throughout his life, and many of his stories and novels show people in desperate situations due to poverty.

The doctor seems to be a role model of how people should act with concern for others. A doctor should try to alleviate suffering through his medical care. He went beyond that to help this one woman who touched him emotionally. (It plants the idea that if we all helped someone with kindness and some help, a lot of the world's suffering would be alleviated.)

I'm happy you joined us reading "The Black Veil." We'll be reading "The Wreck of the Golden Mary" in a few days.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Omar - like Connie, I am delighted that you joined in this read straightaway as a new member. You made some great points, and I hope you will join in our next one as well, which is about to begin.

[Omar]

I'll definitely be joining you in the short stories.

[Petra]

Omar, the next read will start on Wednesday. I look forward to reading your thoughts on the story. I'm excited to start discussing it with everyone.