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The Black Veil
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The Black Veil (hosted by Connie) - 1st Summer Read 2021
Rosemarie wrote: "I agree that Dickens is good at creating a gothic atmosphere-by his descriptive language."Yes, the beginning of this story is full of dark descriptive language of the wind blowing, the cold rain, the woman dressed in black clothes, etc.
Kathleen wrote: "Thanks for the long quote, Connie. The other possible influencers are interesting. I’ve read none of their works."I haven't read them either.
I'm glad you brought up Poe, Kathleen, because I didn't remember how close in age they were. Poe had such an early death that it seemed like his works might have come earlier. Instead, Dickens was writing for decades after him.
Bridget wrote: "Connie, thanks also for the information on gothic literature. I wasn't familiar with all that, and its really interesting. It made me think of Jane Eyre. Am I right in thinking that's ..."Jane Eyre is a wonderful example of Gothic literature! (view spoiler) I'm sure there are more examples of the Gothic in the book, but it's been a while since I read it.
Franky wrote: "Connie, thanks for the information on Gothic literature. It's a reminder why I love it since I love many of those elements. Agree with others that there are definite overtones and influences of H..."
I enjoy occasionally reading Gothic literature too. I think we may have enjoyed some of the same Southern Gothic books in the past.
A veil is such an effective symbol in literature because you wonder what the person is hiding, and why. Hawthorne's story is a great example, Franky.
I just remembered that you were a high school English teacher. Please jump in, and add anything you know about this story as we read on.
Interesting that Jane Eyre is mentioned in this context. I read it decades ago and think it’s probably worth a reread.
Sara wrote: "I had simply remembered that they were friends (and I thought unlikely ones, but this story makes me think they had more in common in their writing than I had realized). Of course, I was not consid..."I'm sorry I missed your post earlier, Sara. There are similarities in some of the elements Dickens and Poe uses in their stories. Each of them had a vivid imagination that could travel to dark places. To Be Read at Dusk was a great group of stories within a story.
Sue wrote: "Interesting that Jane Eyre is mentioned in this context. I read it decades ago and think it’s probably worth a reread."I saw the story differently the second time I read it, and appreciated how independent Jane was for a woman of that time.
Yes, I’m finding that so many books read differently when I read them now when I’m older. Life and reading experience makes a difference. Thanks Connie. I am going to liberate that book from its shelf as a reminder even though I can’t start it right away.
For Wednesday, let's look at the middle of The Black Veil as the surgeon walks through Walworth after a sleepless night, and reaches the house. What are your thoughts about the emotions he's feeling, and what he is seeing? How is Dickens describing the neighborhood?WALWORTH
Walworth is located in South London within the London Borough of Southwick. Even today, it's listed as a high crime area in some sections.
" . . . neither Burke nor Bishop had then gained a horrible notoriety" This phrase comes just as the doctor is reaching the house to see the patient. The narrator is telling us that the story occurred before the body snatchers were operating in London.
William Burke and William Hare committed multiple murders in Edinburgh in 1828. They started when a man died at Hare's lodging house without paying his rent. They removed the man's body from the coffin, and replaced it with tanning bark to weigh it down. They sold the body to an anatomist at Edinburgh University, Dr Robert Knox, who was interested in obtaining more bodies for dissection. It was such a lucrative business that they committed 16 murders, and sold the bodies.
John Bishop, Thomas Williams, and their gang were called "The London Burkers." They were a group of body snatchers who operated in London in the 1830s. They stole bodies from graves. They also lured people to houses where they drugged and murdered them. The gang sold the bodies to three hospitals for use by anatomists, surgeons, and medical students.
Connie wrote: "" . . . neither Burke nor Bishop had then gained a horrible notoriety" This phrase comes just as the doctor is reaching the house to see the patient. The narrator is telling us that the story occ..."
Ah! Thanks for that Connie. I was wondering who Burke and Bishop were! It’s a nice dark reference.
Why did women wear veil? ( at that time)In India it’s religious, Hindu brides always cover their face, it ( face) should never be visible to menfolk but as they age these restrictions are somewhat eased, socially.
Here in this story the woman is 50 years old and presumably a widow, then the veil is religious or some tradition ?
In the middle of The Black Veil, I was telling the surgeon to "look out!" "go back!". I was sure he was going to be harmed. Connie, thanks for the info on Burke and Bishop. I had no idea.
I just realized that no one has a name in this story. The surgeon, the woman, the boy, etc.
Debra, what a great observation about no names in the story. I was so immersed in the plot I didn't even realize that was the case. Those body snatchers were instrumental in the education of medical doctors in Victorian times, but that doesn't keep them from being despicable.
So, Debra, that was you I heard screaming "Don't go" along with me. Good catch about the lack of identity for all the characters.Connie--I am loving all the research you have done for this story. It always adds another layer to completely understand the references and the times.
Nidhi - It was western tradition at this time for widows to wear black mourning dresses and sometimes veils for two years after the death of their husband. Families could also go into deep mourning for other members, (view spoiler)
Sara wrote: "Marvelous article on Victorian mourning customs:https://dying.lovetoknow.com/death-cu..."
That's a great article explaining mourning veils and mourning dresses, Sara. I had no idea that the chemicals in the dyed crepe were so toxic.
Sara wrote: "Marvelous article on Victorian mourning customs:https://dying.lovetoknow.com/death-cu..."
Great article, Sara.
Nidhi wrote: "Why did women wear veil? ( at that time)In India it’s religious, Hindu brides always cover their face, it ( face) should never be visible to menfolk but as they age these restrictions are somewha..."
Great question! Sara's article should explain the black mourning veil. The woman knows that her son will be dead in a few hours, and is already mourning his death. But the doctor does not know that when he is walking to the house, and expects to see a patient.
Debra Digs wrote: "In the middle of The Black Veil, I was telling the surgeon to "look out!" "go back!". I was sure he was going to be harmed. Connie, thanks for the info on Burke and Bishop. I had ..."
The only name in the story is Rose, the doctor's sweetheart, and she is only in his dream.
The doctor didn't know the woman's name, he had not seen her face, she seemed to be confused and possibly mentally ill, and now he's walking through a tough neighborhood. Dickens really set up a precarious situation for him!
Thanks Sara, I was very touched by the story. Dickens novels always move me but somehow his stories seem too brief ( we are used to Dickensian explanations) too hastily written. About this story I liked everything including the end. The atmosphere of mystery kept me on the edge whole time.
Diane wrote: "Debra, what a great observation about no names in the story. I was so immersed in the plot I didn't even realize that was the case. Those body snatchers were instrumental in the education of medic..."
Yes, the bodies were important to the medical schools. I don't know how a surgeon could learn without the experience of dissection. The body snatchers were doing it for a good payoff. The price for Burke and Hare's first body was the equivalent to $857 or 636 pounds in modern money. The grave robbers, called resurrection men, often found military medals, rings, or other jewelry in the coffin too.
Janelle wrote: "Connie wrote: "" . . . neither Burke nor Bishop had then gained a horrible notoriety" This phrase comes just as the doctor is reaching the house to see the patient. The narrator is telling us tha..."
Very dark! Dickens' readers at the time of publication had the news of the London Burkers fresh in their minds so they were probably even more fearful for the doctor than we were!
I love the research and background articles that Connie, Sara, and others are providing. A very rewarding experience of what was already a good story. Between the fear of being buried alive and the resurrection men stealing bodies, even dying wasn't a peaceful experience. And for poor people, daily life was a constant struggle. That's what Dickens was preparing us for on the Doctor's walk to see his patient. The Doctor continued despite his fear, another clue to what a kind man he was.
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Charles Dickens usually has graves, gravediggers - and even resurrection men - in his novels somewhere. For instance one novel (view spoiler) begins in a graveyard. There is a resurrection man in A Tale of Two Cities (view spoiler). And his final completed novel Our Mutual Friend begins by (view spoiler)
Grave-diggers pop up all over the place in his short stories too, such as in The Story of the Goblins Who Stole a Sexton. They seem to have a fascination for him, and he often uses them to emphasise grotesque elements in his supernatural stories.
Charles Dickens researched thoroughly. He used to view all the bodies dragged up from the river Thames, in the morgue. He regularly visited hospitals to see the conditions of the sick and dying, and even attended a public hanging. At that time they were still public, with baying crowds. Charles Dickens reported that he deplored the whole process.
Although he and Edgar Allan Poe were good friends, and mutually admired each other, they never actually met. There are parts of Charles Dickens's descriptions which may remind us of Edgar Allan Poe's, but Charles Dickens's descriptions are powerful without being excessively revolting to the reader.
Burke and Hare were notorious grave-robbers - and are infamous in popular British history. However, the second part of Charles Dickens's phrase "Burke and Bishop" (as explained by Connie in her excellent commentaries) is not so well-known. I assume Charles Dickens coined the phrase because it is alliterative, and he liked the sound of it! Also all these men were well known to the contemporary reader.
Grave robbers were a staple of sensationalist Victorian fiction - and I think even the Sherlock Holmes stories might have had a mention somewhere ...
I looked up Burke & Hare, too, when reading this story. It focussed, for me, the danger the doctor was in by going to this house, in a run down area that he was not familiar with. I thought how the doctor (and other doctors in that time) perhaps had to be brave when going on these isolated house calls.
I found it refreshing that the doctor was true to his calling to help people and didn't turn away because of the poverty and uncertainty he passed through on his way. I wonder if others would have turned back.
This story is a wonderful gothic tale. Despite being so short, it has a depth and development that draws the reader in right away and keeps the reader engaged.
In this middle section I see that Dickensian knack for the description of a place, that we see in all his work. He starts with the the buildings and the land itself - run down, muddy, shrouded in mist. Then there is the filthy woman dumping her grease in the gutter and the "slip-shod" little girl burdened by the weight of a "sallow" infant though she seems not much older herself. Its like I'm walking along with him. And just before he arrives at the house there is a subtle tense shift that really drew me in
"it (Walworth) presented a lonely and dreary appearance perfectly in keeping with the objects we have described here". That use of the word "we" makes the reader feel included in the the narration. He does it again two paragraphs later which starts "When we say that the surgeon hesitated". It caught my attention when I read it as I felt even more drawn into the doctors journey. As if I'm part of that "we" Dickens is writing about.
Diane and Bridget, thank you for bringing up the poverty and marshy, dirty conditions that the people living in that area faced. As the doctor is walking, we can see the area through his eyes. He has to be in the area for a few hours. The people living there face the danger and the filth 24/7.
Bionic Jean wrote: "I'm loving all this extra information :) Charles Dickens usually has graves, gravediggers - and even resurrection men - in his novels somewhere. For instance one novel [spoilers r..."
Jean, that's wonderful information about the graverobbers and gravediggers! Dickens must have also been a wonderful newspaper reporter a few years earlier since he does such thorough research. I'm getting the feeling that he knows every nook and cranny around London.
Petra wrote: "I looked up Burke & Hare, too, when reading this story. It focussed, for me, the danger the doctor was in by going to this house, in a run down area that he was not familiar with. I thought how th..."
Petra, it must have been very dangerous if the patients were intoxicated or mentally ill, as well as the worries about a tough neighborhood. I also wonder if a deranged person would hold the doctor responsible if their loved one died.
It is the detail that gives this middle section its air of authenticity. I have no doubt at all that every element pictured for us here comes directly from Dickens' experiences. He, like the surgeon he writes about, was unafraid of going into the seedier sections of London and seeing the poverty and living conditions at a close view. I believe the compassionate eye of the surgeon is also Dickens' own.
I can't imagine making this walk but the doctor kept on. I was struck by the fact that the police wouldn't be nearby in a jiffy in case of trouble. This was a very isolated area outside of London and in Dickens' words when the rage for building and the progress of improvement had not yet begun to connect them with the main body of the city and its environs, rendered many of them (and this in particular) a place of resort for the worst and most depraved characters.I'd definitely be on my guard as the doctor was. Dickens puts the reader in a mindset of uneasiness and uncertainty of the doctor's safety with his descriptions.
And, he set us up for the outcome, the twist, although I am guessing non of his original readers would have suspected, anymore than I did, what that would be.
Good observations, Sara and Lori. Dickens is also making a statement about the living conditions of poor people while he has us fearing for the doctor's safety.
Great information everyone has provided to supplement the story. It puts us in the same seats as Dickens original readers.
I loved the details Dickens used in describing Walworth. He really puts his readers in the world he's writing about. I especially loved the details of the sluggish swamp, the little girl carrying the baby, and the broken down summer house.
Walworth. I’m reading The Lost Apothecary today, and the apothecary goes to Walworth to find blister beetles.This seems such a weird coincidence to have the same location in London mentioned in two different books within 24 hours of my reading time.
Erin wrote: "I loved the details Dickens used in describing Walworth. He really puts his readers in the world he's writing about. I especially loved the details of the sluggish swamp, the little girl carrying t..."It gave me the feeling that he really saw most of what he describes during one of his long walks.
Kathleen wrote: "Walworth. I’m reading The Lost Apothecary today, and the apothecary goes to Walworth to find blister beetles.This seems such a weird coincidence to have the same location in Londo..."
It is a strange coincidence. I had never heard of Walworth before reading this story.
Dickens, as all have stated, has created a very dismal, threatening, squalid, and dirty setting through which the good doctor must travel to find the house of his first patient and we are aware of the dark mystery presented to him. But it also seems typical of Dickens to intersperse humor, even if it is dark humor, into his works. There are several passages from the very start that demonstrate Dickens' humor- at least I thought these added some humor:1) the doctor is "more than half asleep and less than half awake" in his wandering imagination after now resting comfortably after walking through mud and water the whole day - a light-hearted way to state he was drowsing but not yet sound asleep.
2) then he wonders when his first patient would appear or "whether he was destined, by a special dispensation of Providence, never to have any patients at all."
3} dreaming Rose's delicate hand was resting on his shoulder, only to discover there was a hand on his shoulder that was not soft or tiny
4) the description of the "round headed corpulent" boy who occupied his time "abstracting peppermint drops, eating animal nourishment and sleeping."
5) the boy, told to leave the doctor and the lady in the black veil alone, only to close the door and quickly put his eyeball to the keyhole.
Then the atmosphere changes to a darker note. The humor and reverie fade away with the appearance of the lady and her request. The imaginings in his mind are now disturbing ruminations and he receives little rest. The first part of the story is in stark contrast to this middle section - no humor here and is testament to Dickens' deep concerns about the poor and their appalling living conditions.
By the way, there is another person (besides Rose) who has a name - that of Tom, the "round-headed corpulent boy" in the doctor's service.
Elizabeth A.G. wrote: "Dickens, as all have stated, has created a very dismal, threatening, squalid, and dirty setting through which the good doctor must travel to find the house of his first patient and we are aware of ..."Elizabeth, those are wonderful examples of Dickens' humor.
You're a sharp reader to notice Tom's name!
On Thursday we come to the final part of The Black Veil, inside the house in Walworth.I had to look up the word "deal" which was used in describing furniture in the parlour and in the upstairs room. It's an older word for "pine." So "an old deal box" upstairs is a "pine box."
Elizabeth A.G. wrote: "Dickens, as all have stated, has created a very dismal, threatening, squalid, and dirty setting through which the good doctor must travel to find the house of his first patient and we are aware of ..."As soon as Connie mentioned the name, Rose, I remembered it. But I did not remember the name Tom. I wonder why two people got names?
On the first day of our discussion, it was asked whether bodies were usually released to families after hangings. I found a website that has lots of information about British capital punishment, some with gory details.It states: "From 1752 the bodies of executed murderers were not returned to their relatives for burial. Murder was considered to be a specially heinous crime and the government did not want the bodies of murderers to have a full funeral, be buried in consecrated ground or to "lay in state".
Up to 1832, except in a case of murder where the court had ordered dissection or gibbeting, it was usual for the criminal's body to be claimed by friends or relatives for burial. This burial could take place in consecrated ground."
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/ha...
So I'm assuming that the son of the woman with the black veil was a criminal, but not a murderer.
Debra Digs wrote: "Elizabeth A.G. wrote: "Dickens, as all have stated, has created a very dismal, threatening, squalid, and dirty setting through which the good doctor must travel to find the house of his first patie..."I can understand why the woman in the black veil was unnamed because it made her more mysterious.
Maybe being unnamed made the doctor more of an "everyman" so we could identify with everything from his uneasiness to his generosity.
I don't know why Dickens named Rose and Tom. Interesting question.
I had guessed early on that the "patient" was going to be executed in some way. When the veiled lady saw the doctor she indicated that he could not see him til 9 am the next morning, that there was nothing he could do til then. What a sad thing that she felt he could in some way resurrect her son after death.
The "patient's" cause of death was a complete surprise to me.
Connie wrote: "On Thursday we come to the final part of The Black Veil, inside the house in Walworth.I had to look up the word "deal" which was used in describing furniture in the parlour and in..."
If it had read "pine box" we would have immediately thought of a coffin. I'm sure "deal box" had the same effect on a Victorian reader.
I was also completely surprised by the patient being executed, Debra. I kept trying to work out in my mind if there was a ship from which the patient would not be able to disembark until 9AM, because that was the only scenario that occurred to me. Dickens did like ships and water. The madness of thinking he could be revived after being hanged was not something I thought of at all.
I was surprised at the cause of death. I thought the patient might live in a rooming house where no one was allowed to come in during certain hours.It's interesting to see everyone's ideas about why the doctor could not see the patient earlier.
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Agree with others that there are definite overtones and influences of Hawthorne and Poe in this story in symbolism, atmosphere, character interactions, etc. Even the title is very similar to Hawthorne's "The Minister's Black Veil" another story where a veil is a prominent symbol.
I enjoyed this, and thought it was simple but very effective as a Gothic story. It's nice to be reading a story about a cold setting when it's 106 degrees out today too (almost makes it feel less hot). There's probably more going on under the surface that I probably missed that I would pick up on with multiple readings.