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Importance of Considering Author Demographics for the Group Shelf (The Topic Formerly Known As "Straight, White, Old Dudes... or Not?")
Oy I missed so much! *getting some popcorn*What's SWD?
Mod
Mod
Allison, that comment wasn't directed at you. I totally get how hard it is to moderate discussions like that, because of course you don't want to forbid people to post. I just consider not trying to derail discussions to be a cornerstone of respectful discussions (aka discussions where you actually respect your conversation partners and their time).
Silvana wrote: "Oy I missed so much! *getting some popcorn*
What's SWD?"
I think it means "Straight White Dude", but I could be wrong.
Mod
....Huh, of course *smacks head* Thanks ;p
Mod
This reads as though Allison added no value to the conversation and I'm cackling...."
I just saw this and I offer you a fresh knuckle sandwich! =P
What I said: There's not as much as a disparity as people think. When you look at the numbers, the literary community as a profession is as diverse as the population. What is heard: You bunch of SJW's are just whining. Shut up.
What I said: Literature should be judged on its merit.
What is heard: You just hate white guys.
What I said: My son lives in a time where girls his age openly engage in the nerdy stuff I was into as a teen. How wonderful! Meeting girls with similar interests is hard.
What is heard: I high five my son, while ogling underage girls and tell him go get um, boy. (that's just wrong, BTW)
And this will be judged the same way. won't be replying further. Because, what's the point? Regardless of what I say, people hear what they want to hear.
Mod
This is where I personally get all effed up. Because...on the one hand the only way to change minds is to change hearts and that means creating a judgment free place where you can slowly and gently get someone to see that the rest of the world isn't the problem, the way they're expressing themselves is. And I do want a world where more people think "who is hurt if I keep doing this? Who is hurt if I change?" and then proceed accordingly.
On the OTHER hand, that's exhausting and almost never works without a true relationship like close friend or family member. So then...do we just shut it down? Do we try anyways and all walk away sad and angry? Should I just delete it and pretend it hasn't happened to protect the dignity of the party posting and the sanity of the reader?
I also don't know how MANY MORE TIMES we can all say it's not about wanting fewer white guys, it's about wanting more of everyone else. Goddamn false scarcity is a fathermugger.
Eva wrote: "On a funny note: One time in WoW my group had difficulty with a particular dungeon and we decided to turn on our microphones to coordinate better, and this was how we found out that all of 5 of us were women (one was over 60) hiding behind male personas."My Guild master was a female - I never asked her age, but when I shared mine (31 atm), she said her oldest son is of similar age.
And, despite that, she was more than willing to read my first, messy, pathetic excuses of a story - which was aimed at 20-ish audience.
This shows that while there may be a specific target audience (age, gender, or culture-wise) for anything, there will be outliers.
This is a complex problem to handle (like all controversial topics are). On the one hand, I agree that the book should be judged on its merits. Most times I don't know anything about the author (to include his/her name) until I get to the back section with a picture and brief description. In the ideal world, this is all we need as readers.That being said, publishers want to make money. If nobody is checking on ethnicity/gender/religion/etc, then they will continue to publish what sells, traditionally books by straight white men. Why mess with a system that's working? It takes the consumer to force the change. However, if you don't look for these other groups, the statistical probability is you will continue to get the majority. Those books may be amazing, but you will miss another gem because the representation isn't there. So, despite disliking having to search for authors based on demographics, it is necessary to force a shift in the system. As long as I don't claim something is good SIMPLY because it wasn't written by someone biracial, then I feel that's the best I can do as an individual. I've searched for something different, yet still rated it based on my enjoyment and nothing else.
Brian wrote: "What I said: There's not as much as a disparity as people think. When you look at the numbers, the literary community as a profession is as diverse as the population. What is heard: You bunch of S..."
This is such a statement full of irony as you are doing the exact thing you're accusing the commenters here. Taking well developed and well thought out arguments and reducing them to straw-man bites. If you're feeling attacked because of your arguments, maybe read some of the responses and try to understand where they're coming from instead of dismissing them as totally misunderstanding what you said. Cause you weren't really misunderstood the way you think you were.
Also, and this is because this bugs me so much, women have been in science fiction and fantasy spaces the whole time. That's why you're getting pushback about your statement to your son. It didn't really have anything to do with you oogling younger girls, but that you just ignored the fact that WOMEN HAVE BEEN HERE THE WHOLE TIME and you never noticed. It's not my (or any woman's) fault or responsibility that you hung out in spaces that those women avoided because they were not female friendly, that's all on you. I'm sick of men looking at me and going, where were you when I was a kid. These men who are the same age as me(40something), thinking that I must be new to fandom. I'VE BEEN HERE THE WHOLE TIME. I just found most of the fandom spaces to be gross and unwelcoming so I did my own thing.
Melani wrote: "Brian wrote: "What I said: There's not as much as a disparity as people think. When you look at the numbers, the literary community as a profession is as diverse as the population.
What is heard: ..."
Bravo, Melani! Well said!
What is heard: ..."
Bravo, Melani! Well said!
Man, is SWD fragility real or what? I was doing a panel at a convention a couple of years ago and expressed something that turned out to be somewhat controversial to a YouTuber: I said I was unhappy when I looked at a billboard for a new tv show set in NYC and all the actors in the billboard were white. I was speaking about how important it is for media to reflect the real world, and how we need so many more stories to be told than just those about a bunch more white people. This YouTuber (a woman) found it hard to believe that I would feel this way, since I was white.
Anyway, there’s no perfect formula for this sort of thing, but as has been stated very well here, over and over, is that there has been a profound imbalance of representation, in all forms of media in the English-speaking world, and in order to begin to eke out even the slightest edge toward any sort of equity, we are all collectively going to have to push really damn hard. And if that means white men like myself might need to take a side- or backseat to give underrepresented folks more of an opportunity, I consider it the very least I can do.
One of the many reasons Ursula K. Le Guin is a personal hero of mine is how eloquently and fiercely she spoke about her experiences of being a woman in a male-dominated field. And also about how seriously she took her efforts to populate her books with nonwhite characters. I encourage those who are interested to seek out her words.
Mod
Brian wrote: "What I said: There's not as much as a disparity as people think. When you look at the numbers, the literary community as a profession is as diverse as the population. What is heard: You bunch of SJW's are just whining. Shut up.
What I said: Literature should be judged on its merit.
What is heard: You just hate white guys. "
I would like to comment on the "merit" argument for a moment cause it is a particular pet peeve of mine.
Whenever there are any attempts made to level the playing field - be it affirmative action, hiring quotas for disadvantaged groups, or, in this case, people being nudged a bit more mindful about the books they nominate - one argument that keeps being trotted out by the people who already have the entire system working in their favor - in this case straight, white men - is: "But don't we want merits to win out?" The implicit assumption in that satement is that straight, white men are always and by default the best at something.
Now, that's not what you may have been thinking or meaning to imply. That doesn't change the fact that this is an extremely established rhetorical move that has been used time and time again to preserve existing imbalances. And if I never have to hear it again, it will be too soon.
Melani wrote: "[...]
Also, and this is because this bugs me so much, women have been in science fiction and fantasy spaces the whole time. That's why you're getting pushback about your statement to your son. It didn't really have anything to do with you oogling younger girls, but that you just ignored the fact that WOMEN HAVE BEEN HERE THE WHOLE TIME and you never noticed. It's not my (or any woman's) fault or responsibility that you hung out in spaces that those women avoided because they were not female friendly, that's all on you. I'm sick of men looking at me and going, where were you when I was a kid. These men who are the same age as me(40something), thinking that I must be new to fandom. I'VE BEEN HERE THE WHOLE TIME. I just found most of the fandom spaces to be gross and unwelcoming so I did my own thing."
Thank you for this, Melani!
By way of illustration for how long women have been around in fandom spaces and - gasp! - actively shaping fandom, let me point everyone to Lee Hoffman, a successful fanzine editor, who was assumed to be a man by most people in the community until she went to WorldCon wearing a dress that had pages from her fanzine mimeographed on to it in 1952. (A photo of this absolute legend can be found here.)
Mareike wrote: "Whenever there are any attempts made to level the playing field - be it affirmative action, hiring quotas for disadvantaged groups, or, in this case, people being nudged a bit more mindful about the books they nominate - one argument that keeps being trotted out by the people who already have the entire system working in their favor - in this case straight, white men - is: "But don't we want merits to win out?" The implicit assumption in that satement is that straight, white men are always and by default the best at something.Now, that's not what you may have been thinking or meaning to imply. That doesn't change the fact that this is an extremely established rhetorical move that has been used time and time again to preserve existing imbalances. And if I never have to hear it again, it will be too soon."
Completely agreed, Mareike. Beth's mention of the blind orchestra auditions shows that if people were actually and honestly interested in true merit, representation would be much more diverse than it is. But 'merit' is usually code for 'status quo', and thus we see the same patterns again and again.
When those who have had to fight for inclusion have to be sought out or special requested by those who know to even look for their books, it appears that those authors don't sell as well as the books that are being promoted as "best-sellers", justifying publishers making "merit-based" decisions based on sales numbers to push the books that sell. Being at the front, KEEPS you at the front, when the method of determining "merit" is whether you're in front or not. It's self-perpetuating.
Why is it controversial to want variety in what I read? I mean, If I eat dinner at an Indian restaurant am I discriminating against all the poor burger and steak places? If one type of book is taking up the majority of the space in bookstores then why is it so controversial to want to see others have some visibility too? Also. In addition to. Saying that wanting diversity is discrimination sounds reminiscent of catch phrases like "reverse-racism" and "white erasure", both of which make me want to roll my eyes so hard I can see my brain. I get so tired of being dismissed as "woke" for wanting to hear about and to read a diverse selection of books. Literally no one I know is advocating for the absolute exclusion of swd authors. No one. And "god help anyone they suspect of blurring that focus"? The people complaining about being the victim in these types of conversations are nearly always the ones insulting everyone who has an opinion different from their own.
I apologize if I'm being rude but I just feel like I've had this conversation so many times before and it always has to devolve this way. (This is in no way a complaint about the moderators. You do a great job herding the cats and trying to keep everybody playing nice.)
diversity is overrated, when I go to my favorite Italian restaurant it's spaghetti and meatballs every time for 35 years in a row there are rumors of me having lasagna possibly the barbecued meat platter but they're all lies, it's spaghetti and meatballs every time.
A bit off-topic but nicely illustrative for people who've never experienced it themselves, here's what being a female gamer with your mic turned on is like:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL0aV...
Eva wrote: "A bit off-topic but nicely illustrative for people who've never experienced it themselves, here's what being a female gamer with your mic turned on is like:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL0aVqVs..."
I made it 1:07 before my husband was like "What are you listening to? A misogyny convention?" I told him what it was and he said "...So yes, then."
LOL, pretty much.
Don wrote: "diversity is overrated, when I go to my favorite Italian restaurant it's spaghetti and meatballs every time for 35 years in a row there are rumors of me having lasagna possibly the barbecued meat p..."
Nothing wrong with spaghetti, Don. On my part, I am big on BBQ chicken and porc back ribs. To return to more serious matters, I have nothing against diversity, as long as it is not shoved down my throat. I may be myself a straight White old dude but I can honestly say that I do my best to promote women as complete equals of men and to ignore someone's skin color, ethnicity or religion when judging someone. If anything, consider the number of times men started or caused wars, compared to the number of time women started or caused wars. Humanity has now passed the point where 'advancement' was accomplished mostly by wars and power grabs, thus negating the notion that 'strong' equals better. Now, brains and empathy towards others are making Humanity advance.
Nothing wrong with spaghetti, Don. On my part, I am big on BBQ chicken and porc back ribs. To return to more serious matters, I have nothing against diversity, as long as it is not shoved down my throat. I may be myself a straight White old dude but I can honestly say that I do my best to promote women as complete equals of men and to ignore someone's skin color, ethnicity or religion when judging someone. If anything, consider the number of times men started or caused wars, compared to the number of time women started or caused wars. Humanity has now passed the point where 'advancement' was accomplished mostly by wars and power grabs, thus negating the notion that 'strong' equals better. Now, brains and empathy towards others are making Humanity advance.
Eva, that is disturbing, I think I'd run silent/mic off but it would burn.
I have nothing against kyriarchy, as long as it is not shoved down my throat. Whoops, already happened.
Mod
Sigh.
I guess what this brings me to is if you're really tired of hearing about how we need diversity-inclusion-equity-equality, talk to your in-group about just accepting it and how to be gracious or at least not openly hateful, creepy, or scary. I have always been here, I'm not going away and neither are my sisters and NB siblings or any of the people who are NOT straight white American men. So like...get used to it I guess? To that end, the tool we all have here is to make sure we at least LOOK for one book by someone whose voice might not have the same purchasing power as your Sandersons and Kings. We are not 12 year olds with missing shoes. We know better than to say "we can't find it" before we look. So like...let's look! Make it part of your social hygiene to consider who is around you, and more notably, who is not, and then think why and whether that should change.
*Descends soap box*
That was ugly. I had first heard about this when I read an interview by Felicia Dey where she spoke about female gaming. But hearing her story and actually "hearing" it for myself are two separate animals. That's sick.
Apologies if this has already been posted, but I LOVE this analogy from author John Scalzi:Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is
Michele - your link doesn't seem to work, but I found that post on his site: https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/1...
Melani wrote: "Also, and this is because this bugs me so much, women have been in science fiction and fantasy spaces the whole time. "Mary Shelley is considered by many to have written the first science fiction novel.
as to whomever made the comment about stars in TV shows - the lack of those who are not "normal actors" (white, built and good looking) is also a turn off. It's why I was happy about John Goodman, Roseanne Connor (though she shot herself in the foot), the actual trans actor playing a trans character in Big Sky (they are beautiful so that helped though), the developmentally disabled character in Stumptown played by some one who was really one, Marlee Matin (ditto for the beautiful comment), but I'd still like to see some of the guys in wifebeaters, droopy shorts and shaved heads carrying an extra 40 pounds of weight that I used to see all the time in Houston in a show....
and again, I commend this board for pushing me to read some books I wouldn't normally have read and leading to me finding some new favorite authors.
Eva wrote: "They've done some studies and found that it's generally 50/50 in SF and a female majority in Fantasy: https://womensenews.org/2016/07/in-sc......"
Thanks, Eva -- it runs completely counter to my assumptions, but better disruptive facts than a pleasant misunderstanding.
AMG wrote: "Adrian wrote: "It needs to be remembered that people write books in a particular genre because they are themselves fans of the genre.I've done no research into this but based solely on my own exp..."
I can, in fact, recite Heinlein in my sleep!
This is the Way.
Eva wrote: "A bit off-topic but nicely illustrative for people who've never experienced it themselves, here's what being a female gamer with your mic turned on is like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL0aVqVs..."
Wow! I played D&D many years with a group of male friends in the past, but always face to face, not via Internet. We also regularly played both male and female characters, so the level of crass misogyny and immaturity shown by the male players in your YouTube video left me with jaws wide open in disbelief. Do these morons represent the majority of boys/men playing those videogames? I sincerely hope not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL0aVqVs..."
Wow! I played D&D many years with a group of male friends in the past, but always face to face, not via Internet. We also regularly played both male and female characters, so the level of crass misogyny and immaturity shown by the male players in your YouTube video left me with jaws wide open in disbelief. Do these morons represent the majority of boys/men playing those videogames? I sincerely hope not.
I debated posting in this thread but I'm going share from a personal perspective. As a Mexican American seeing statements such as:"should be on merit", "I have nothing against diversity, as long as it is not shoved down my throat. I may be myself a straight White old dude but I can honestly say that I do my best to promote women as complete equals of men and to ignore someone's skin color, ethnicity or religion when judging someone."
Diversity isn't just an add-on. I want to see people who look like me and my family in books. I want my daughter to see people who look like her and speak like her (we are a bilingual home) in books. I am originally from TX and did most of my schooling there. I was not exposed to one book by a Mexican American, or by any author from Latin America. The closest was a few authors from Spain.
The ONLY time Mexican or Mex/Americans were discussed in school was a few short white-washed history lessons that portrayed Mexicans as basically savages.
Can you imagine not being exposed to ANY characters in books to relate to, until adulthood? I can. Can you imagine reading books by Non-Latinx authors who constantly portray the Latinx community (In US) as narcotraficantes, pandilleros, poor immigrants who don't speak well, are uneducated, and have tons of kids, I can. This is not because there are not good Latinx authors, it is because the system in the world of publishing does not value certain voices. I'm not going to read a book just because it's a Latinx or BIPOC author, but I am going to read BIPOC authors because our communities matter.
Allison wrote: "I think straight white dude?"Don't forget old...
Conscientiously,
Your Least Unfavorite Straight White Old Dude and second in command to Anna the Thread Founder
Mod
haha Mike we can have swods if you want! as an acronym anyways, apparently if I respect and enjoy all good stories I can't also have any swods, least favorite or otherwise
Michel wrote: "Don wrote: "diversity is overrated, when I go to my favorite Italian restaurant it's spaghetti and meatballs every time for 35 years in a row there are rumors of me having lasagna possibly the barb..."We are beyond the point as a world or national culture, where equality and color-blindness are adequate solutions.
Consider instead a metaphor of two countries. Equal in natural resources, size and climate, one country had a drought for several generations. Both are getting equal rainfall now, but it will be another several generations to recover from the damage in the second country to be healed.
Allison wrote: "yes, Ann! You and your daughter and all people deserve that! I'm so excited for a future with that as commonplace! we'll keep working towards it.haha Mike we can have swods if you want! as an acr..."
For Ann, I second Allison. Although, we are getting so much history, so much literature, with only six-ish years to school our children, that it is getting harder and harder to get both breadth and depth in school. But no one should be discounted!
SWDs will be fine; I just didn't want my legacy of stealing the title of the thread from Anna to be forgotten in the dust of time.
Ann wrote: "I debated posting in this thread but I'm going share from a personal perspective. As a Mexican American seeing statements such as:"should be on merit", "I have nothing against diversity, as long a..."
Thank you Ann for posting, I too debated about posting anything. And honestly I just didn't feel like having to "debate" that representation matters. That having authors or stories that reflect my race/ethnicity, sexuality, gender, etc are worthy too. It's exhausting; and while this topic might be just a discussion for one person, it is integral to my life and the lives of my loved ones; if that makes sense. And I do thank all of you before me that put things way more eloquently than I can. To not have to ever think about who the author is, to me reflects privilege, that most of what you are reading mirrors your life and experience. To this day I devour Latin@ queer narratives, because while there are more available now than lets say 20 years ago, its still rare. But I also actively seek out other stories about genders, sexuality and race/ethnicity not my own - because I truly believe that is how we grow and learn - from each other.
I, also spent some of my formative years in Texas (and recently moved back about 10 years ago) and never learned my own history til I went to college. I lived and now live again, in a city that is at least 80% Chican@ but still had the same white washed history taught as in other places. We may be the majority in numbers, but still did not get access to books written by Latin@/Chican@ until I left. I cannot express how much that changed my life, finally seeing my life experience on a page before me, it was Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza; the cover was my first tattoo! And I came to SFF as a tween precisely because it was the first genre that had character that were two of something or half of something, like half witch/half human or half robot/half human, and I found something to relate in that being mixed myself.
Michelle wrote: "And of course, CJ Cherryh. I read a slew of her books, and thought she was a male author."Thank goodness her name has been mentioned!!
Jennifer wrote: "Michelle wrote: "And of course, CJ Cherryh. I read a slew of her books, and thought she was a male author."Thank goodness her name has been mentioned!!"
👍 Currently on a C.J. Cherryh binge, as well.
I just caught up with the thread, and appreciate the fact that the issue was raised in the first place, because simply put, reverting towards the default setting of all-white male authors is something that many simply won't notice unless the conversation is raised. There is the research-proven tendency to think that marginalized voices are equally- or over-represented when they are still in the minority, and their total absence can be overlooked the way that the reverse would never be.Taking a diversity audit of my personal reading has helped me to be more aware of my own subconscious biases, and I appreciate the same being done for the group as a whole.
Also, I appreciate all the comments and stories shared.
@Eva Thank you for pointing out barriers in publishing and the self-perpetuating bias in the system.
Thank you @Caillen and others for pointing out that this is not a zero-sum game, and diverse reads shouldn't be thought of as "restrictive." It's precisely the opposite, casting a wider net.
And thank you to the numerous people who pointed out how gatekeeping has led to pseudonyms, mics turned off, absenting ourselves from the room, and other forms of silencing. But like Allison said, invisibility≠absence, and I think it's worth making the effort to see what we've been missing.
Maybe it's a part of being Straight, white and old, but I find it increasingly difficult to follow and participate in these discussions, because many of the updates contains abbreviations which may be well know to a younger more hip audience, but leaves me ?????. BOTM, NB POC ETC....
Wow! I've had a couple of days where I missed catching up on my Goodreads threads. What an amazing (and on occasion, frustrating) discussion. And thanks to the mods, and the thoughtful commenters, who've taken the time to explain perspective, and relate anecdotes from real life.I watched that Youtube clip - I'd heard things, and read things, but I really hadn't understood exactly how bad things can be for female gamers.
Entitlement is a word that came to mind after I read the Scalzi posts. It's a word that reminds us that our own defaults aren't the defaults of all. Entitlement comes with assumptions about how life should work, and sometimes an obliviousness that it doesn't work like that for everyone else.
I too, enjoy exploring books by those whose perspectives are different to those of my own, and this group is really great for that.
Mod
I'll chime in again to apologize and honor everyone who shared his personal the political is. It kills me that you need to parade your pain for scraps of empathy, and the work will continue to make that less common. But I also recognize how exhausting and hard that is. Your effort is seen and felt and shared by so many here. thank you and please feel free to accept a virtual hug
Lars wrote: "Maybe it's a part of being Straight, white and old, but I find it increasingly difficult to follow and participate in these discussions, because many of the updates contains abbreviations which may..."Allison wrote: "Lars, it sounds like you're at the stage some googling would be wise before joining in again! please feel free to message me with a link to what you've found if you have further questions :)
I'll ..."
I'm going to shortcut Allison here briefly, because sometimes, with very small search terms, google goes off-track.
BOTM == Book of the Month, our book club's main reading selections
SFFBC == us, the SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
NB == non-binary gender
POC == person/people of color
PM == personal message, as in PM me if you have more easy questions
Now your homework can go smoother.
Mod
Allison wrote: "This is where I personally get all effed up. Because...on the one hand the only way to change minds is to change hearts and that means creating a judgment free place where you can slowly and gently get someone to see that the rest of the world isn't the problem, the way they're expressing themselves is. And I do want a world where more people think "who is hurt if I keep doing this? Who is hurt if I change?" and then proceed accordingly. On the OTHER hand, that's exhausting and almost never works without a true relationship like close friend or family member. So then...do we just shut it down? Do we try anyways and all walk away sad and angry? Should I just delete it and pretend it hasn't happened to protect the dignity of the party posting and the sanity of the reader?"
This illustrates the dilemma. It never works without the personal relationship. However, often this means people either give up or become confrontational with the person they find offensive. The problem here is that person will go home and have more ammunition against their friends who agree with the person who confronted them. Worse yet, the problem child may not have any friends who think from the perspective they were exposed to. Now they have more reason to avoid that group entirely. It leads to deeper divides. I found the following article and it made me so proud, despite knowing how uncomfortable it must have been for all parties involved.
https://www.ted.com/talks/daryl_davis...
Unfortunately, this level of dedication is difficult, so it is rarely the chosen path. After all:
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Blockbusters: Hit-making, Risk-taking, and the Big Business of Entertainment (other topics)Momo (other topics)
Lord of the Flies (other topics)
Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza (other topics)
Writing the Other (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
James Tiptree Jr. (other topics)C.J. Cherryh (other topics)
C.L. Moore (other topics)
Robert A. Heinlein (other topics)
Alexis Hall (other topics)
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Coming back to this thread just now, I was getting ready to type a reply that would have been very much like yours, Ines. So I'm just going to co-sign your points.