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Importance of Considering Author Demographics for the Group Shelf (The Topic Formerly Known As "Straight, White, Old Dudes... or Not?")
Mod
This reads as though Allison added no value to the conversation and I'm cackling. Possibly in agreement. (This dynamic of friendly ribbing in our separate online relationships will always be appreciated.)
Mod
As someone with an average rating of 3.2 stars for the 400 or so books that I've read in the last 3 years this is a rather depressing thought.
Lars wrote: "In all honesty I more often than not, know next to nothing about a writers gender, age, race or religion and mostly I don’t care (the exception being writer’s who’s outspoken homophobic or racist)I would never pick a book because the writer was of the same or not the same sex, race, sexual orientation or hair colour as me.
Somehow I feel this discussion diminish the effort of the writers, must be somewhat unsatisfactory to see readers being encouraged to read their work, not because it’s brilliant, but because it’s written by a member of a minority."
Exactly. I, personally, choose books to read by whether the story is interesting to me.
Choosing books by gender, minority, or orientation rather than whether you'd like the book IS, by the very definition, discriminatory
another pseudonym sets areMichelle Sagara and Michelle West and Michelle Sagara West
Agatha Christie and Mary Westmacott
Elizabeth Peters and Barbara Michaels
Peter O'Donnell (Modesty Blaise books) and Madeleine Brent (gothic romances) and he won won the Romantic Novel of the Year Award by the Romantic Novelists' Association with Merlin's Keep. I never knew the author of those books was male.
Kristine Kathryn Rusch and multiple alter egos (look to wikipedia for this list)
There's another author whose books I liked under one name but really didn't like under another name, but i can't remember the names right off hand
Yeah Chessie I heard about that guy writing romance novels under a female pen name. Good on him for winning the Romantic Novel of the Year Award. The Bronte sisters used to use male names too apparently.
I just caught up and what a great discussion! I really love how respectful everyone in this group is. Ines wrote: "Adrian wrote: "It needs to be remembered that people write books in a particular genre because they are themselves fans of the genre.
I've done no research into this but based solely on my own exp..."
All. Of. This.
Also, not to get too far off topic, but as a woman into SFF of all kinds, there's definitely been moments where men felt entitled to test my bona fides. (Shout out to the friend of a friend who, when said friend and I were talking about the then-newest Star Trek movie being released soon, felt absolutely comfortable in asking me: "Do you even know the difference between Star Trek and Star Wars?" after knowing me for all of 5 minutes.) So, it's not always comfortable to be a woman in SFF spaces (and as a white, cisgender, European woman I still have a chunk of privilege that insulates me from other stuff), which - ontop of biases in publishing and marketing - also makes it harder for anyone who isn't a straight white man to break into the field.
There's definitely a whole lot of writers I may not have found without this group - or only found years down the line - so I always appreciate all efforts to keep the nominations and the bookshelf diverse.
There's another issue for straight, white male writers to navigate also...You can't help being what you are, but you might wish, for whatever reason, to be more representative of diversity in your writing. At this point, the likelihood is that instead of being slagged off as a privileged dinosaur, you'll be called out as:
- insensitive
- a cultural appropriator
- a cultural tourist
or any number of other shrill / woke judgments.
You can't win. If you stick to writing just about your own subculture you'll be judged for excluding others. If you try to write about others you'll be accused of insensitive, cultural tourism.
How many diverse writers, I wonder, are writing about straight, white dudes (without those SWDs being the butt of jokes or evil baddies)?
Having said all that, I am very interested to read SF by diverse writers and would be happy to see some recommendations.
Just a friendly reminder that this is a discussion for readers, and if anyone wants to talk about this from the perspective of a writer, that discussion can be started in the Authors' folder.
Adrian wrote: "There's another issue for straight, white male writers to navigate also...You can't help being what you are, but you might wish, for whatever reason, to be more representative of diversity in you..."
You're so right Adrian, you can help being what you are, any attempt of taking on "modern" themes to please the audience, is doomed to feel false. I hope writers will just stick with writing whatever they find interesting, then we as readers can pic the reads we find interesting as well (no matter who or what the author is).
Anna wrote: "Just a friendly reminder that this is a discussion for readers, and if anyone wants to talk about this from the perspective of a writer, that discussion can be started in the Authors' folder."I really tried not to post from a writer's perspective but the lines do blur sometimes. I was trying to speak from a helicopter view over all writers.
Adrian wrote: "You can't win. If you stick to writing just about your own subculture you'll be judged for excluding others. If you try to write about others you'll be accused of insensitive, cultural tourism."Valid point. I actually just read a blog post written by a lesbian indie author about how in some ways #ownvoices movement might be going too far sometimes and thus hurting creativity of both mainstream authors and #ownvoices authors. You might find it interesting. Here: Where #OwnVoices Went Wrong
Still, the above-mentioned gatekeeping is nothing compared to what female, POC and minority authors face in the publishing industry. I believe some people in this thread have already listed the most prominent problems better than I could ever articulate.
I'm really grateful to the people who strive to promote all those voices that could otherwise remain unheard or barely known. I am probably in the majority of the people for whom reading is a hobby and it's not always easy to find time to read while adulting, let alone do a research to diversify one's reading. And yet, now there are authors of very different backgrounds (in regards to sex, sexual orientation, race, country, etc.) on my list of favourites, precisely because there are people like mods in this group that go to an extra length to make people aware of options other than the default.
I repeat my earlier point:Having said all that, I am very interested to read SF by diverse writers and would be happy to see some recommendations.
Mod
hm... was that shrill? I assure you I'm using a very raspy morning voice and come here in a spirit of great hope and gentleness.
Start with these, and if you need more recs, please start a new thread in the Recommendations folder.Book list: Mental Health in Fantasy (October 2019)
Book List: Afrocentric Fantasy (February 2019)
Book list: Translated Sci-Fi (July 2019)
Book List: All the SciFi Ladies (March 2019)
Book list: Pride in Fantasy (June 2019)
LGBTQIA+ in scifi
Adult SF by Black authors
Written by POC?
African Fantasy
Chinese scifi
Recommendations for Indigenous Authors
Sci-fi Reads & Disability
Recommendations for books with Non-Colonial POV?
2021 SFFBC Amazin' Eights Challenge
Inclusive Book Bingo Challenge
Mod
Also, I generally leave the talking to Allison, and stick to spreadsheets and linking myself, as these are our strengths, but besides instigating this thread, I also want to point to that list of recommendations I just posted.You can clearly see how the mods pushed for more inclusive themes in 2019 (and 2018, but we didn't start book list threads then. See September 2018 Own Voices Fantasy.)
In 2020 and 2021 especially, we've stopped pushing as hard, and the stats are slipping back into SWD territory. This is where my frustration stems from. That Allison and I have to force people to try and look outside of the SWD box. We've consciously done a couple of "free choice" months, and those have all* resulted in an SWD book. The free scifi poll was four SWDs and one white woman. Am I suprised? Nope. Disappointed? Very much so.
* except one free fantasy theme
Adrian wrote: "I repeat my earlier point:Having said all that, I am very interested to read SF by diverse writers and would be happy to see some recommendations."
We have a lot of threads for recommendations and favorite lists, so I would recommend looking at those or starting a new thread if you have particular favorite themes and want recommendations that are more specifically tailored to your taste and interests. It would just derail this thread to start listing countless authors here. ;-)
In terms of accusations of cultural appropriation for authors who write diverse characters even when that is done well: (putting in spoiler tags in order not to derail the thread with off-topic) (view spoiler)
And re: diverse or female authors writing straight American white men: the research necessary for this already comes naturally and for free with our everyday culture and our literary canon. I mean, obviously, if a female author were to write a man with prostrate cancer, or from Jersey instead of her native Trinidad, she'd have to do some research, or talk to people with the right experience. But we all grow up intimately familiar with and attuned to "the default" already. Just imagine if 99% of the movies and tv series you watched and books you read had at least one (usually several) elderly Jamaican women in them. You'd be so familiar with that demographic's lives, dreams, fears, indiosyncracies, habits, backgrounds, differences, and so on.
Oops, just read the part about the author thread. If I can find it, I'll copy my post over there.
Allison didn't start it yet, but yes, please do move those parts there when she does! Everyone else, please hold your replies or any other writer comments until that thread is started, thanks! :)
Allison wrote: "Sorry, how is readers giving feedback shrill? "There are a great many people in this infinitely fractured and utterly diverse world who insist on perceiving any story through only their own very specific lens...and god help anyone they suspect of blurring that focus.
I find that approach tends to be shrill.
I could answer more fully but, once again, I'm aware that this is crossing into author territory - which I shouldn't do.
Eva wrote: "Adrian wrote: "I repeat my earlier point:Having said all that, I am very interested to read SF by diverse writers and would be happy to see some recommendations."
We have a lot of threads for re..."
Interesting post, thank you. Will take advice.
Mod
Having said all that, I am very interested to read SF by diverse writers and would be happy to see some recommendations."
We have a lot of threads for re..."
Well said!
According to the latest census, (I was having this discussion a few weeks back is why I looked it up) around 60% of writers are women. POC are only slightly underrepresented - around 4%-5% - when compared to population. The most underrepresented were Hispanics, unless you account for White/Hispanic - not sure why they're separate. Men are actually underrepresented by 11%. The variance within genres makes things look skewed. And in certain genres they definitely favor specific groups. Breaking it down into sub-genres more so. Urban Fantasy, Fantasy/Romance, are almost completely dominated by women. But if you add Urban and Romance to the larger fantasy genre, it becomes a more even split.
Reading a book based on the author's ethnicity, gender, or whatever group they are assigned by the Church of Wokeness, is a poor way to enjoy literature.
Sanderson isn't famous because he's a straight, white, male. He's famous because he's a great writer. If someone chooses to not read his books because he places too low on the intersectional scale....their loss.
For my part, I didn't know NK Jemisin was a black woman until I saw her conduct a reading. And now that I know,...yeah, nothing has changed. Why should it?
Read what you want by whomever you want. I simply can't fathom the notion of choosing my literary entertainment based on anything but quality and personal taste.
Mod
It's been extremely well understood that some here disdain folks who try to be politically and socially aware, and that no one's immutable characteristics change interest in or success at telling a story. The question came about because though, as you note, the demographics are pretty close to parity, our bookshelf isn't. So what does that mean, and how can we address it?
Allison wrote: "I think you're missing the point, Brian. It's been eloquently summed up by several above, and I'd encourage you to read those and respond! But to try again, the point isn't "do we disregard straigh..."My response was to the original post, which unless I misunderstood, quoted a suggestion that readers put the personal group the author inhabits to the fore of their thoughts when nominating a book. While I took the long way around, I felt supporting my opinion with statistics to be prudent. Why should it matter who wrote the book? Did you enjoy it? That's all that counts. Nominating a book or not doing so with any thought to something as unimportant as what the author looks like is just a bad idea.
AMG wrote: "Interestingly enough, when you look at sci fi, which is the genre that sparked this discussion, authors are still majority straight, white, and male. It's the one genre that's still male dominated.reply | flag *
."
You'll get no argument from me there. But I have to wonder is it because women aren't choosing to write in that genre? Or are they not accepted? I really don't know. If you count dystopian The Hunger Games, Divergence, etc. as science fiction, is doesn't level it out. But it makes a dent.
AMG wrote: "Interestingly enough, when you look at sci fi, which is the genre that sparked this discussion, authors are still majority straight, white, and male. It's the one genre that's still male dominated."Not a surprise - way more males than females are working in IT and tech-heavy professions, which gives them an edge writing Sci-Fi.
I don't have any data - and would welcome them if anyone has them, out of curiosity - but I'd say fantasy will have sub-genres that are leaning heavily in one way or another, because so does the audience.
Tomas wrote: "AMG wrote: "Interestingly enough, when you look at sci fi, which is the genre that sparked this discussion, authors are still majority straight, white, and male. It's the one genre that's still mal..."A funny side note - a few years back I took my son to DragonCon. women and girls were everywhere - Cos playing, playing D&D, videos games, the whole sha-bang. Thinking to myself: "Where were these girls when I was a teenager?", I told my son, "You live in great times, my boy."
So, a dude takes his son to a con, checks out all the young girls, and then high fives his son? Yes, extremely funny, can't stop laughing.
Mod
Let me explain it to you, Allison. It's the boobs!
Anna wrote: "So, a dude takes his son to a con, checks out all the young girls, and then high fives his son? Yes, extremely funny, can't stop laughing."Why are you putting a creepy tone to it? Checking out young girls? What's the matter with you?
What wrong with thinking how cool is it that my son, who is into D&D, gaming etc. has girls around who like it too? They weren't around when I was a kid. I would have given anything to meet a bunch of girls who played D&D.
You're not reading the room very well Brian :)
Anna wrote: "Let me explain it to you, Allison. It's the boobs!"While many cosplayers show a lot of skin and it's definitely a factor, there may be one more reason. Many men are passionate about hobbies, and there's something about women who share that trait.
OK, I promise to tone down the frustration on my end, if everyone else promises to stay on topic and contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. And read what has already been said by others.
Mod
Anyone else feeling uncomfortable where this is going?
There's a reason why I've always used male online personas in gaming since I was 12!! On a funny note: One time in WoW my group had difficulty with a particular dungeon and we decided to turn on our microphones to coordinate better, and this was how we found out that all of 5 of us were women (one was over 60) hiding behind male personas. We'd all been so anxious when turning on that microphone. 😂
But it's definitely gotten much better! 🙂
@Brian, there are queer men (such as myself) in this group, who may or may not (depending on whether or not they’re bi or pan) share the high-five feeling regarding scads of women running around conventions. I mean, I’d be happy that they’re there for their sake, but not for mine, in the way that you were implying. Also, when citing census results, maybe bear in mind you’re speaking (I assume?) of the US, and there are tons of other countries in the world that produce authors, some of whom write in English and/or have their work translated, so those statistics start to look a whole lot different in context. There are also quite a few members of this group, our mod Anna included, who are not from the US. As a proud, enrolled, dedicated, proselytizing member of the Church of Wokeness, I humbly urge you to consider these things when making sweeping generalizations.
Brian wrote: "Allison wrote: "I think you're missing the point, Brian. It's been eloquently summed up by several above, and I'd encourage you to read those and respond! But to try again, the point isn't "do we d..."All of your points have already been eloquently and thoroughly addressed up thread. It is pretty disrespectful to barge into a thread and assume you have valid, important points when you haven't bothered to read the rest of the thread. I particularly recommend reading Eva's contributions. She clearly put in a ton of effort to elucidate her points and back them up with stats and research.
Btw, go Eva and Allison! I'm really appreciating all of your contributions and completely agree. Thanks for doing the work of articulating your points.
Brian wrote: "According to the latest census, (I was having this discussion a few weeks back is why I looked it up) around 60% of writers are women. POC are only slightly underrepresented - around 4%-5% - when c..."Okay, and of that 60% how much is category romance, YA, "chick lit"? These are huge and profitable categories, but the pink and kiddie aisles aren't "prestigious."
Also, Brian, you're a writer. We get it already.
Eva wrote: "There's a reason why I've always used male online personas in gaming since I was 12!! On a funny note: One time in WoW my group had difficulty with a particular dungeon and we decided to turn on ..."
This is so sad and so real (and also really humorous in a sad way). It is why it really pushes my buttons when guys are like, "Well, I don't see any women so they must just not like it..." Like, you really believe that there is something in my chromosomes that determines what hobbies I enjoy??? Maybe it is the fact that women are often excluded and made unwelcome in these spaces. I've read tons of stuff at this point about how girls are discouraged from a young age from feeling confident in the maths and sciences while boys of the same ability levels (or even lower ability levels) are encouraged. Then the few women who end up pursuing math or science as a career are bullied and hazed throughout. Hmm, I guess their chromosomes just didn't want them there....
Anna wrote: "In 2020 and 2021 especially, we've stopped pushing as hard, and the stats are slipping back into SWD territory. This is where my frustration stems from."I've definitely been noticing that, too.* Aside from pressing the point by creating nomination calls that explicitly include or exclude certain groups--which isn't ideal--I'm not sure how this could be addressed.
* I even contributed to it by nomming** Cage of Souls, which won in its month
** nom nom!
On gaming space, I have a story or two, which doesn't have anything to do with SFF, but I think it's emblematic of women's and marginalized people's experiences online. Way back in 2005, I joined two MMOs (to play with different people I knew irl): WoW and FFXI. My sibs and I played Horde in WoW, which at the time had no races that were fashion model/movie star conventionally attractive, and as a Tauren I think that preserved me/my character from "attention" from creepers. It happened only once and it kind of blew my mind (and not in a good way).
When I decided to start a character in FFXI, the co-worker who encouraged me to join gave me some advice. "Play a tarutaru. You don't want to play a character that is attractive to male players." I hadn't really considered this when I started WoW, but okay, sure. And that tarutaru was blissfully free of creeping and abuse throughout her play time in FFXI.
In FFXIV I play a fem elezen, which since the character model isn't a mi'quote or viera, lives her life blissfully ignored by the male population of the server. :D Yes, many of us just want to be left the f*** alone and not have our characters perved on by randy dudes! Even if they happen to choose a mi'quote or viera! Incredible!
This kind of internal negotiation about character presentation is by no means just my experience. This is something that SWMs don't have to contend with in the slightest.
Mod
Also, I think we've made our responses clear, so please let's try to level set the tone a bit!
It's really hard not to fall into the cultural gravitation well. As someone (a comedian I think?) said (paraphrasing) "if culture is the ocean we all swim in, prejudice is the piss we all know has warmed our feet along the way". Hard to avoid, even when you're watching out for pool pee-ers. The present philosophy on how to get out of that orbit is active seeking. For example I know large companies who will not review applicants for jobs until there are at least 2 candidates who are not presenting as white men. Not that those two candidates will certainly get the job, but you can't dismiss what you've never seen, which is what a lot of this feels like to me.
It's like "we can read this good book, OR this book by a [insert minority here]" which is a default that's hard to avoid for many white Americans, but is one that is important to address. There isn't a scarcity of merit, only opportunity. Similarly, merit is not an intrinsic quality, it cannot be measured statistically, or in proportion to how easily you get sunburn/menses.
Beth, I wasn't trying to shame anyone's nomming choices, book or food related :)(I thought about sharing my online gaming experiences, but I don't really want to get into that :S I don't play online anymore though, maybe that's all I need to say.)
Anna wrote: "Beth, I wasn't trying to shame anyone's nomming choices, book or food related :)"No worries, Anna, I didn't take it that way. :)
Allison wrote: "The present philosophy on how to get out of that orbit is active seeking. For example I know large companies who will not review applicants for jobs until there are at least 2 candidates who are not presenting as white men. Not that those two candidates will certainly get the job, but you can't dismiss what you've never seen, which is what a lot of this feels like to me."
One famous anti-bias policy is orchestras holding blind auditions, auditions where the candidates' performance is heard, but they are hidden visually from the people running the auditions. (I've also heard that the flooring is chosen to mitigate clues like the clack of high heels on a floor?) This led to orchestras' having greater gender parity.
We did something like a blind audition for the "book bachelor" BotMs in January. Not practical when it comes to the usual nomination process, though.
Mod
Thank you, my thoughts exactly! It's so frustrating.
And thank you, Eva, Allison, Anna, Anthony and everyone else who contributed tho this thread in a meaningful way!
Tomas wrote: "I, personally, choose books to read by whether the story is interesting to me."
Good for you. Guess what - most people do. I do that, too. My problem is, the stories I am interested in are not presented to me as easily by my bookstore, a publisher or an algorithm, so I have to search for them. The fact that you don't have to just proves that the problems that we are talking about in this thread are actually real.
Adrian wrote: "How many diverse writers, I wonder, are writing about straight, white dudes (without those SWDs being the butt of jokes or evil baddies)?"
That's the wrong question, because they don't need to. The majority of published and promoted scifi writers already write about them, so do you really see a need to "level the scales" here? And if you do, in what direction? Like ... where should that go? Or was your question just intended to derail the discussion?
Brian wrote: "According to the latest census, (I was having this discussion a few weeks back is why I looked it up) around 60% of writers are women. POC are only slightly underrepresented - around 4%-5% - when c..."
Please keep in mind that not all people who write in English are from the US, and that doesn't even take into account translated books. Anthony put that very well in his post. Also, on a personal note, I do think that fixation on the US to be rather arrogant and perpetuating stereotypes about US americans people from other countries sometimes have.
And if you could please leave phrases like "Church of Wokeness" out of a factual discussion, I would appreciate it.
If you had this discussion a few weeks back - did you not take anything away from that? Like, did you not learn anything new, a new perspective? Did you make the exact same points in that discussion you are making here? And if so, and if you didn't take away anything from the answers... why are you repeating your points here? What's your goal in this discussion?
Re: Women at conventions playing DnD: I volunteer for a local nonprofit roleplaying organisation and the stories I heard from other women tell me everything I need to know about why women don't go to conventions, or why they don't play DnD with people they don't know.
Also, I have to say, I am extremely frustrated with the argument "women don't write scifi/don't work in STEM because they are just not interested in it". Extremely frustrated. I work in STEM and I can tell you, it's not a matter of interest. From the moment I expressed a wish to go into computer science, I've had more people try to discourage me than try to encourage me. It changed only after I had already proven myself and become successful.
And the reason I am so frustrated with that argument is, I always have to explain myself, prove why I'm allowed to be there, be it STEM of scifi. And now, here, in this thread, I have to do that again, even though we actually wanted to talk about how we can encourage more diversity on the group bookshelf, because some man again pulled that out of his sleeve, even though it has been disproved time and time again and he could just look it up instead of making us explain it to him. So instead of talking about diversity on the group bookshelf, we are now talking about why diversity matters, and tactics like this, which derail and set back discussions, are one reason why we are moving forward so slowly.
So I would also like to encourage people to read what has already been written here.
Mod
I apologize to everyone who just felt like they had to prove their validity by sharing painful things from their past, and that I didn't see which direction this was going until the point it became personal. My sincere contrition. I see you and you are worthy, smart, and very much in the community I consider myself blessed to belong to!
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Blockbusters: Hit-making, Risk-taking, and the Big Business of Entertainment (other topics)Momo (other topics)
Lord of the Flies (other topics)
Borderlands/La Frontera: The New Mestiza (other topics)
Writing the Other (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
James Tiptree Jr. (other topics)C.J. Cherryh (other topics)
C.L. Moore (other topics)
Robert A. Heinlein (other topics)
Alexis Hall (other topics)
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I think that a lot of stuff gets dumped into YA because the main characters are pretty young. A lot of it shouldn't be in there but it is. I don't know how many times I've moved Mark Lawrence's One Word Kill out of YA. Yes the main guy is a kid but it isn't YA. And Nevernight by Jay Kristoff is always in YA when it definitely isn't either.