Importance of Considering Author Demographics for the Group Shelf (The Topic Formerly Known As "Straight, White, Old Dudes... or Not?")

[[deleted user]]

Allison wrote: "The link I gave is for everyone in the US who claims to be a writer as their main job. I think we have to consider what the goalpost should be. Is the goal just that anyone can and should get a boo..."

Let's not forget that a number of writers write simply for the pleasure of writing and not to make money. Those writers may often be retired people with lots of time on their hands, or have writing as a pure hobby and who simply want to share their stories with others. Many writers who do not pursue sales per say are either self-published or use small publishing houses which offer ebooks for free or at very low cost to readers. Today, readers do not necessarily need to buy books to find good stories to read. I suggest that those self-publishing authors should be considered in the cultural/ethnic mix concerning the subject of this thread. That may well change substantially the ethnic/gender percentages quoted up to now in this forum.

[Lost Planet Airman]

Allison wrote: "The link I gave is for everyone in the US who claims to be a writer as their main job. I think we have to consider what the goalpost should be. Is the goal just that anyone can and should get a boo..."

And, what's the transition from writing to reading? Y'all can probably break this down better -- I am just a simple country engineer -- but not everyone with a pen is a storyteller, and not every storyteller will polish their skills to be an author, and not every author will tell the stories that will spread across boundaries of regions and nations to the world.

Until the Internet.

Is electronic publishing a different question now, or the same question with different settings for the various thresholds?

Dang.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I don't mean this to be aimed at you or anyone in particular, Mike, but I think "separate but equal" has proven that equality is never an option under separation.

If I say I can do what we both do and be paid, and you can get an unpaid internship at it, are we equal? Anyone can get that internship, there's no bar to it, we may even do the same work! Is that justice?

The confounding thing about self-pub, aside from not really having a great count, is that the variables increase exponentially. We can't really do an apples to apples comparison, and frankly, most self-pubs don't sell. The average sales across the life of a book self pub is currently under 250 books. Compared to a fairly conservative 5-10,000 for any trad pub book. This isn't dollars, it's actual purchases, units sold, per sources like SFWA. That book can be the absolute best thing, and it still might not hit sales high enough to break the 100th page of results for its tags on Amazon.

And for purposes of this thread, it's sort of moot. We've read 1 self-pub book--2 if you count Theft of Swords after it was bought by a big house. Most of it comes down to distribution and reader awareness, which is an industry driven thing.

[Becky]

Oof... This self-publishing conversation is a whole thing. There was a time when I was accepting books semi-regularly for review purposes, but as a nobody reviewer, most of those were self- or indy-published books, and most were very not good. And so I have mostly avoided them since then. There's just so much volume in the SP realm, because the output can be very high, but unfortunately, the quality that I've seen is really low.

I recall one time I reviewed a book and mentioned a lack of editing that left the meaning unclear, and the author was commented and was like "Thanks, I've updated the book." and... while that makes things better for future readers, I just didn't really like it, even though the author was very nice and appreciative and I actually liked their book. I guess my feeling is that I DID agree to review the book, but DIDN'T agree to be a beta reader or editor for it. And that's generally how I feel about SP books now - that when any old file can be "published" with a click, reading them is essentially treated as beta reading. I had HUGE issues with a very, VERY popular fantasy book (which I DNF'd almost immediately because it was so unreadable, and which still sporadically spawns troll comments years later - what fun!) which was originally self-published and later picked up by a trad-publisher, so they can "make it". (And hopefully they edited it, for the love of pete.)

But this conversation is making me rethink that blanket "steer clear" policy, because it IS true that traditionally published books are gatekept, and not always for quality. But it's a daunting concept to try to wade back into that arena, because finding worthwhile SP books is like finding a needle in a haystack. Sigh.

[Lost Planet Airman]

Allison wrote: "I don't mean this to be aimed at you or anyone in particular, Mike, but I think "separate but equal" has proven that equality is never an option under separation.

If I say I can do what we both d..."

Could you rewind and go over that again? Did you get there from my writings, because I think I'm 100% with you but don't know what I said that implied otherwise.

"Separate but equal" as a theoretical social model has positive feedback and will never be stable. "Separate but equal" in reality was a political smokescreen.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'm saying that the idea that self pub will "level" things is a fallacy. The data I gave is everyone who could afford to live on their writing, be they trad pub or indie pub. All 8 billionish people could self-pub and we still wouldn't have "fixed" the skew in publishing, the number of folks who can live on their writing, or the bias evident on our shelf because there would still be a tiered system to the rewards and the machinery behind book production. While it's great more people are finding a way to tell their stories, telling the story and having it be received are not the same. Finding an audience still requires more "oomph" than just being good at writing. It's entirely possible to be self/indie pub and successful, but it's a vanishingly small number of folks who can do it, compared to the output of books every year. Name recognition through awards and publishing houses is still the most common way for readers to connect with new to them authors.

[CBRetriever]

The look inside on Amazon helps. I'm sure the other ebook sites have something similar.

That said, i read the Tor Sampler and didn't find a book that interested me even with the preponderance of female and possibly own voices/other/bi/non-gendered (sorry I forget the term for this) I didn't find anything to interest me. Please tell me if some of them are good

In the Watchful City by S . Qiouyi Lu (their)
Summer Sons copyright Lee Mandelo (they/their)
A Marvellous Light by Freya Marske (Australian white female)
Sun - Daughters , Sea - Daughters by Aimee Ogden (female)
Flowers for the Sea Zin E . Rocklyn (them/their)
We Shall Sing a Song into the Deep Andrew Kelly Stewart (white male)

looks like Tor is going against the white male bit for their new authors

[Lost Planet Airman]

Allison wrote: "I'm saying that the idea that self pub will "level" things is a fallacy. The data I gave is everyone who could afford to live on their writing..."

Ah, yes, thanks, and concur. :-)

If I may blend that to my thinking, the question doesn't end at the writers, it branches in three dimensions -- time, money, and something I'll vaguely call 'quality'. The pool of authors feeds readers (and libraries) that spend money owning books, then time 'using' books, and 'quality' measures how readers select when they have more choice than resources.

(I often told people that I was so addicted to the written word, that I would read the cereal box if the wasn't a book at the breakfast table.)

It's not a justification, but it is a model of reality, that publishers (pros and self) are in the job of acquiring resources: time, money, and interest; from readers.

[[deleted user]]

Allison wrote: "Name recognition through awards and publishing houses is still the most common way for readers to connect with new to them authors."

For now, maybe. However, with the advent of the Internet and of social medias, word of mouth is becoming more and more important and significant as a factor in getting a new author known. If, for example, someone finds 'book/ebook X' to be to his/her liking and says so to friends, relatives and colleagues on Facebook or Twitter, then the effect of that could multiply in a very significant way very rapidly and attract others to read that book/ebook, even though the author may or may not earn money in the process.

Personally, I find the argument that only being able to live off the sales of one's books counts to be skewered. Many so-called 'bestsellers' are not as good as they pretend, while some are downright mediocre, even though their authors made piles of money. For me, the number of readers who truly enjoyed a book/ebook, whether they paid for it or not, is the most important factor. With the way ebooks can now travel around the Internet rather freely, it is nearly impossible to fully track how many people read a certain story. Today's statistics parameters may well tell us a very incomplete picture about readership around the World (and not only in the USA).

All this is to say that prospective or new authors should not get discouraged about writing by the very real difficulties in breaking through via traditional publishers (who tend to play safe and favor the money-makers), or by the massive competition in terms of new authors constantly appearing. If you love writing, then write!

[Lost Planet Airman]

CBRetriever wrote: "...sorry I forget the term for this..."


Non-binary, I think.
Unless you meant asexual, or ace, in the LGBTQIA+ (and then some!) spectrum?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I think you've captured the idea of the system very well there, Mike! When the dollar is time and power and safety, where we put dollars becomes very important. Which, again, isn't to say anyone needs to make a leap of faith. As Chessie points out we have ways of doing our own quality check, and ways of working WITH the system but achieving more equitable results, if we are aware and motivated to be equitable.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Michel wrote: "Allison wrote: "Name recognition through awards and publishing houses is still the most common way for readers to connect with new to them authors."

For now, maybe. However, with the advent of th..."

I don't disagree with anything you've said Michel, it's just tangential to my point. This thread is still about broadening the horizons of our group, and presently self-pub is not a reliable path towards that goal.

[Midiain]

CBRetriever wrote: "The look inside on Amazon helps. I'm sure the other ebook sites have something similar.

That said, i read the Tor Sampler and didn't find a book that interested me even with the preponderance of ..."

I don't know anything about the other books but Zin Rocklyn is a brilliant writer. Gorgeous prose, extremely insightful, deserving of so much more attention than they've been able to garner.

Since the thread is about bringing more diversity into our reading lists, and intersectionality is important, Zin is also Black, disabled, and has mental health difficulties.

[CBRetriever]

Mike wrote: "CBRetriever wrote: "...sorry I forget the term for this..."


Non-binary, I think.
Unless you meant asexual, or ace, in the LGBTQIA+ (and then some!) spectrum?"

non-binary is what i was looking for in that the pronouns are them their and they

[Becky]

Caillen wrote: "I don't know anything about the other books but Zin Rocklyn is a brilliant writer. Gorgeous prose, extremely insightful, deserving of so much more attention than they've been able to garner."

I have never heard of Zin Rocklyn, but this description?? "Flowers for the Sea is a dark, dazzling debut novella that reads like Rosemary's Baby by way of Octavia E. Butler."

YES PLEASE. Pre-ordered. :D Thanks Caillen!

[CBRetriever]

Zin did have one of the better ones in that collection, but maybe a bit more of the book would have tempted me more. I'll look up other writings by them

[Don]

Did JK Rowling the individual have the right to make the statements she made, yes. Should JK Rowling "the brand" have made those statements in a public forum, no, hell no, what were you thinking?.

[Anna]

Don, I think that is a discussion for the Your Fave Is Problematic thread.

[Don]

I think when youngsters create new and gentler ways of referring to things, boomers don't always get the memo.

[Don]

ok anna

[Don]

no pain no grain!

[Don]

I'll slink off now.

[Lost Planet Airman]

And I was just ready to make my own non-sequitur, darn the luck!

[CBRetriever]

Excellent article on Black authors and self-publishing

https://www.slj.com/?detailStory=blac...

and an article about the fight with the Romance Author community about including POC and non-heterosexual books

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/202...

[Lost Planet Airman]

Hey, everyone,

I’m thinking that this topic is going to begin a wind-down soon, as a lot of viewpoints have been spoken and are starting to create answers (and new questions) as we talk. Since I feel that I was part of the kick-off of this topic, I’d like to be part of the twilight-time as well.

A lot of people have been very open, or very caring, or very passionate, or very smart, or great heaps of all those discussion-positive qualities, and more. (I only have a short list of emotions, and a type A-B brain myself.) Thank you, all.

Some things I think that I think better now are these: Most author demographics outside of the SWD group, fall short of the cis-demo for readers and the general population (minorities are underrepresented). Some of the strongest reasons are deeply imbedded in publishing. Readers grow from reading trans-demo, as it exposes them to understanding alternative viewpoints and subtext and culture. In science fiction and fantasy, the same can occur cis-demo with creative and engaging writers, but we should also consider that reading encourages writers, and reading from under-demos encourages underdemo writers, and increasing the proportion of under-demo writers balances the “writing ecology”. And, crudely put, non-SWD individuals have collectively taken more $#!@ than I will ever know. Well, no, I’ve taken a lot of $#!@, but much of mine was ‘civilized’ as training or character-building, and not the wild sort that lurks in alleyways or on the internet, and has no safety-net.

You have changed, further, the inner dialog that goes with my reading habits. But I’ve got a long TBR, especially in catching up with the best SF&F has to offer from the past to the present. And I’m beginning to put the “O” in SWD. And Heinlein and Niven shaped my youth and early adulthood in very meaningful ways. So it may be years before my reading habits show statistically significant diversity, but I will, I will, aim for first to elevate diversity above the norm, so it can settle into...

Damn. I’m really not as eloquent as all that. So listen up:

I’m with you. But I still have a lot of old SWDs to read, too; not because they were SWDs but because they were there then and they were good. AND I’ve got a lot of non-SWDs to cover, as well, because they-there-then-good just as much, and more.

Minority should not mean maginalized. But minorities and women have been getting marginalized all along the long path that leads to here and now. I think sometimes the marginalization is accidental -- but too, too often it is what others call “systematic” -- it has had a long, slow insinuation into our culture until it is everywhere, and casual, and as hard to pin down as capturing mist or nailing jello to the wall..

Eff’ing eloquence taking over again.

Things shoved down in the water burst up high before they find their level. I’m afraid the only cure to the -isms -- that will be smart and sustainable -- is for minorities to rise higher than the average for a time. Meaning, even if the burden is spread thin, the majority in the U.S. will have lower opportunity.

And yet, that’s fair. If we are all supposed to be intrinsically equal now, don’t we have to admit that we have been all intrinsically equal for some time? And haven’t we been accruing a debt, by the denial of equal rights and equal freedoms to all? And how big is that debt, and when will Destiny and the good Lord call that debt due? When will They either demand payment, or foreclose on us as a culture? In the words of Thomas Jefferson, “Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever.“

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

You're good people, Mike

[Lost Planet Airman]

Allison wrote: "You're good people, Mike"

Well, when the wind is southerly, I do know a hawk from a handsaw.

Oh, and thanks to the posters who sent us to the Scalzi article; it made me comfortable again with who I am. I just may have to step aside to let the players on the higher difficulty play through, to use a golf metaphor.

I've settled on SWORD as a working abbreviation for my condition (straight, white, old, religious, dude), unless someone creative can keep the cool factor but make a less aggressive word?

(White, old, religious, straight, testosterone-ish won't work -- it's the WORST.)

[Becky]

You could just move the S to the end - WORDS: white, old, religious, dude (who is also) straight? Could work for a words writer on TWO levels! ;)

[Anna]

WORST 😂