The Obscure Reading Group discussion
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The Tenant of Wildfell Hall
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Feb. 1 -- Feb. 7 Discussion: Chapters I ("A Discovery") through XIX ("An Incident")
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Sue
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Feb 02, 2021 07:36PM
Wonderful discussion. I’ve been unable to join in until tonight because of an eye issue but I particularly like the discussion of the language of the landed gentry, something I wasn’t aware of. Helen is interesting and, to me as a reader, obviously carrying baggage from her past. I suppose that sense probably is part of being a modern reader. Would a reader of Bronte’s day be wondering about her past or just indulging in the same type of catty thoughts as Mrs. Markham’s neighbors? Or would they wait for the author to provide the answers they wanted?
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Yes, it is an interesting discussion! I didn’t expect to be reading about the best ways to raise children. I’m feeling that Gilbert is a creepy stalker with a violent and possessive streak, while single mother Helen is very rational and sensible. Interesting about the gentry, Jean, and how people may have spoken back then.
They used too many words and beat around the bush , when fewer words would have sufficed. I just wanted them to spit it out, already. No one has said anything about the gossip mongers. The vicar was guilty as well. They wanted all the salacious details , and what they didn’t know, they made up. . They provided untruths for entertainment. That has not changed much in today’s world. Gossip is human nature. Helen didn’t appear to be bothered by them, except when Gilbert thought the lies were true.
Yes, they certainly waffle on. These days an editor might chop one hundred pages out. Dickens wouldn’t stand a chance! (Nod to Jean.) As for the gossipy vicar, I seem to recall a few of those in books and screen. I can think of a couple myself in real life ... minding people’s business is their business!
Sue wrote: "Would a reader of Bronte’s day be wondering about her past or just indulging in the same type of catty thoughts as Mrs. Markham’s neighbors? ..."That's an interesting question, and I assume that human nature being what it is, they would vary. Some would harbour nasty suspicions, and try to find out anything they can gossip maliciously about; some would be concerned for her (these are the varying reactions we've had already, as Carol mentioned); and some, like her present-day readers, would be intrigued by the mystery, I think.
A solitary woman, with a child, who appears to be a widow, but is reluctant to talk about her husband, or any source of income provided for her, earning money from her work (it is not for her own pleasure, but for money, she tells Gilbert) and who hides herself in an old decaying mansion, and hides her location when titling these pictures, must have seemed even more intriguing in the 19th century than now.
And they had little else to talk about! The only times they got out was to call on other neighbours and leave their cards.
The gossipy neighbours feel to me like a throwback to Jane Austen's waspishness, (but less witty!) but then women of that class at that time were constrained by society and duty. They were not working all hours of the day, at a job or in the house, as they had servants. So unless they were unusual, and willing to step outside what was considered respectable, they had little else to occupy their brains - not even reading, unless it was within certain limits. Too much education was considered a bad thing in a woman, as she should look to her husband for that.
Cranford by Elizabeth Gaskell portrays this sort of closed small society within a community quite well too, as I remember, (although I didn't enjoy it!)
Yes, Carol, I think vicars and clergymen were often portrayed in this light too. Anthony Trollope has his share of catty clergymen - probably just like today, as Nick pointed out but then he also has solid, caring souls of the earth.
Nick wrote: "Yes, they certainly waffle on. These days an editor might chop one hundred pages out. Dickens wouldn’t stand a chance! (Nod to Jean.) ..."Sorry to disillusion you Nick, but except when he was only just starting out as a writer, Charles Dickens was the editor - and the publisher!
He had his own newspapers called "All the Year Round" and "Household Words", in which he published his own serials (which we now know as his novels) and also included those he approved - and edited - by his friends Wilkie Collins, Elizabeth Gaskell, and Anthony Trollope to name just three. They all had to submit their pieces to him, and had their novels (eg. The Woman in White and North and South) edited by Charles Dickens, first published in his monthly newpaper in serial form - and sometimes not even under their own names! Charles Dickens wanted to keep them as staff writers ...
Editors now may well chop 100 pages out of these huge books now - but not then! And as someone who likes Victorian fiction, I think theirs would be the loss.
But this is getting off topic for our read. Just had to give a "nod" back to Nick's :)
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Kathleen wrote: "I'm very curious how our Helen will make out, and hope she fares better than Jude's Sue!..."Yes indeed! And (possible spoiler for Jude the Obscure follows) (view spoiler) I do wish I'd been part of this group then, and able to discuss it with you all, as it's my favourite book by Thomas Hardy.
Nick wrote: "Yes, they certainly waffle on. These days an editor might chop one hundred pages out. Dickens wouldn’t stand a chance! (Nod to Jean.) As for the gossipy vicar, I seem to recall a few of those in bo..."I was thinking the same thing, Nick.
Diane wrote: "Good catch, Kathleen."Wow didn’t put those two together, but now I see the connection.
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Wow didn’t put those two together, but now I see the connection."
Thanks, but it's all due to this excellent discussion!
Ginny, I love that illustration of Helen and Huntingdon. What a cad!
And about Ken's comparison with Russian literature, I never thought about that before--what a difference! Anne's style reminded me of Jane Austen, but does anyone have insight on literature of the time from other countries to compare? Sorry for my ignorance, but is this style confined to British lit?
Kathleen wrote: "Carol wrote: "Diane wrote: "Good catch, Kathleen."Wow didn’t put those two together, but now I see the connection."
Thanks, but it's all due to this excellent discussion!
Ginny, I love that ill..."
Dumas, Thackeray, Dickens, and I think Hugo were all contemporaries of the Brontes.
I have read Hugo and Dumas. The Three Musketeers is a witty book. The Count of Monte Cristo is entirely different , and then of course there is Hugo’s Les Miserables, a big novel, with big social issues. These are French writers.
Maybe even a little after the Brontes.
Anne reminds me of Austen too, which is disappointing as I'm not a huge Austen fan. Though Tolstoy was writing a little later, I think it is amazing to see how incredibly modern and fresh his writing is in comparison, though that could be down to the translations--sadly I can't read Russian. Dostoevsky is closer to Anne's time, and feels easier and more compelling to read, also. I've been reading a lot of 19th century fiction this year but this one isn't doing much for me thus far. I thought it would, I loved the start but it quickly went downhill from there. The idea of her being a painter is right up my street, but it hasn't been massively touched on yet.
I think the Tenant is I very Austenesque. (I’ve only read Pride and Prejudice, I did love the recent movie of Emma.) Russian literature seems so different. On the surface, Dostoyevsky and Bronte appear to be opposites in style and delivery, but maybe on closer thinking they both deal with themes of love; dissipation and mental decline; relationship breakdowns; infidelity (I’m thinking Tolstoy more than Dostoyevsky there). I love Tolstoy and Turgenev, Anne’s writing is nothing like that, maybe Anne did not have access to these authors to influence her? (BTW, it’s just amazing that the Brontes were so young when they wrote.)I am finding Anne much easier to read (in spite of my waffle comment) than Dostoyevsky, who has driven me nuts on so many occasions. Dense and claustrophobic. I needed a stiff drink after reading The Devils. The Double was like visiting and insane asylum. Crime and punishment - tough. I get his brilliance, but he is exhausting ... Anne is not that. We are opposites on that one, Matthew. 😊
I really like French literature, although what I have read so far may be a bit later. Again, quite different in style to Anne. The count of Monte Cristo was a page turner! Getting off track...
I’ve now nearly finished the second instalment ... cads, rakes and bounders abound! Poor Helen.
Well maybe not so opposite, Nick. Dostoyevsky is tough reading, I agree with you there, but I find him rewarding. Crime and Punishment was a good page turner for me but Notes From Underground was like chewing rubble. So far Tenant has been one of those books you continually put down and don't realise until you've done it. Tolstoy is absolutely dreamy to read though.
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The English Victorian writers, on the other hand, seem more focused on telling a story, I think, like we're sitting beside the fireside listening to them. So we're not THERE so much as there "once removed."
That comes under the category of opinion, of course.
Like Nick, I am more than halfway through part two and feeling like I'm reading about college drinking days with the guys (only these are grown men... physically, anyway).
Mod
I agree that the whole diary thing is very clunky. My interest has waned with Helen's diary entries. Whoever heard of repeating entire conversations word for word in a diary? I have finished with the second portion at this point. It will be nice to take a break before completing the novel.
On a rather obscure note, the notes in my edition couldn't find the source for Graham's use of the quote "the clear, cold eve' was fast 'declining'; so I went on a quest and tracked it down. It's by Thomas Moore, Irish poet, and the stanza goes: On Lough Neagh's bank as the fisherman strays,Very appropriate for the moment, as this link shows. Go to the youtube video to listen to a lovely little piano version.
When the clear cold eve's declining,
He sees the round towers of other days
In the wave beneath him shining:
Thus shall memory often, in dreams sublime,
Catch a glimpse of the days that are over;
Thus, sighing, look through the waves of time,
For the long-faded glories they cover."
http://m.joyceproject.com/notes/03012...
Diane wrote: "I agree that the whole diary thing is very clunky. My interest has waned with Helen's diary entries. Whoever heard of repeating entire conversations word for word in a diary? I have finished with t..."How about in a memoir? If she had called it a memoir, would you feel differently?
I'm trying to find words to describe the prose. Clunky would not be one of them. For prose that uses many (too many?) big words, it flows. It communicates. I know exactly what is meant, and images are vivid. Poetic comes to mind. People don't usually talk to each other in poetry, so that feels strange. I know what you mean, but .......
Hi all, I started reading late and am glad to have caught up. I had to resist reading this discussion until now. And wow! 71 comments already. I like knowing a bit more about the style of writing in Victorian literature (thank you, Jean!) and enjoyed the discussion of whether people did indeed converse in such a grandiloquent fashion. I find myself more and more invested in this story and think that Anne Bronte was a skillful storyteller. In Helen, she created a mysterious and enigmatic character. She built the suspense well and we were kept wondering what kind of woman she was. Do we have reason to believe she was above the disrepute in which she was mired and for which she was despised? I did feel sympathetic toward her even as I was shocked at her frankness and abrasive social responses; I cannot help thinking there must be untold suffering that accounted for her reclusive behavior. I have to admit that I enjoyed her forthrightness even as a young 18-year-old. I admire her spunk in turning down the proposal of Mr. Boarham (that name alone repels). She was obviously independent minded even then. Enter Arthur Huntingdon and I started to worry for her, knowing her naivety and youth and natural inclination to prefer a charming young man to those boring old men her aunt and uncle were hoping she would marry. I look forward to seeing how her character would develop. Even now, I admire her way more than any of the male characters, none of whom I like so far.
Mod
I agree, Ginny. The writing is far from clunky. As Laysee states above, Brontë is a skillful storyteller. The writing flows nicely.
I'll part ways with you, though, in calling it "poetic." I guess that depends on your definition. Poetic writing brings me to a standstill now and then. I hit a sentence that has unusual word pairings with a powerful effect, for instance, or the imagery is so beautiful I have to stop and treat myself to a reread of the sentence -- for sheer enjoyment purposes.
With this book, it's more of a slide read. I move and I move quickly, sometimes to see what happens (the storytelling element) and sometimes because the writing seems overwrought and is hitting me with the cudgel of excess -- which, as we've established, is part and parcel of Brontë's times and its writing style, not any fault of her own.
Ah, what a difference a sleep makes ... as I read these later comments, I see the mood has shifted again and I'm not such a lone voice :)Welcome to the read Laysee; I loved your insightful comment, and thanks to Ginny too, for tracking down the derivation of the quotation to Thomas Moore. I'm always facinated by indepth bits of research like that :)
Like both of you - and Ken - I do admire this prose. In fact if we have to compare this with another Brontë, then I do prefer this fluid, readable narrative to Emily Brontë's emotional outpourings, with all the "Oh oh oh"s. But then Emily was trying to do something different, and I think of her as almost proto-stream of consciousness (Virginia Woolf et al,) and not my cup of tea at all!
To be honest though, I try to keep all 4 Brontës separate in my mind, as sibling authors - or parent and children authors - are not often very similar, in my experience.
Sandra and Diane - "I am barely compelled to keep reading." "the whole diary thing is very clunky."Oh dear. Our tastes obviously differ, although sometimes I have to get into a book to adapt to the style, and hear the voice properly, so I'm hoping it could be just that, perhaps? The other book I'm reading at the moment which was also published in 1848, has a very different style, and a huge range of characters! It is similarly intense in parts but very humorous, and we don't get that here. Humour here would destroy the tension. This feels quite intimate by comparison.
But I'm impressed by the range of narrating voices. Although it is ostensibly two, it is far more, because of the inclusion of letters and journal entries, which enrich the text. We have the early Helen of the letters, and the older wiser Helen. We see her first through Gilbert's eyes; at first his prejuduced view, and then we see through his rose-tinted spectacles, and then his attitude changes again, to a petulant swain, and then ... ? It takes a skilled author to correctly depict these nuances - and this is just the first section!
"Whoever heard of repeating entire conversations word for word in a diary?"Well it's not an appointments diary, it's more of a journal or memoir, as Ginny said. I actually classed this in my mind as a journal. And if we ask who would write down a conversation verbatim now, maybe it would be a teenager or someone in their early twenties, trying to make sense of their world. Even far older, writing a conversation down; trying to recall exactly what was said (without confabulation) can be helpful. It's not something I do very often, but I can still remember an occasion a dozen or so years ago when I did exactly this (except that I typed) with a particularly sticky problem. And here on Goodreads ... well we do this all the time, don't we? And we can refer back to exactly what was said :)
But in Helen's case, I think it is obviously her way of coping. She is lonely, and isolated. She has no friends, and is not able to talk to her parents. For many Victorian women, their journal was their only friend. They had very little freedom, and could not go out, or talk to those they would wish to.
Helen's real life is in books, and probably has been all her life - even before she was 18. She writes her own thoughts here, and her own experiences - few though they are. She repeats the little social contacts she has had, as a way of thinking things over, and considering her place in the world: a world which at the moment feels alien to her.
Interesting, I didn't see it as a memoir at all but rather a diary. It was very commonly used in the time period, there are countless books that are done through diary entries. Most recently I read Dracula which used this form too. I think, as with all writing, one reads with the suspension of disbelief: we know that one cannot write entire conversations verbatim in a diary hours after the fact, but it doesn't really matter in the end, we are reading for the story and can look past the implausibility of it.
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But, I think she's heading somewhere. I agree about her storytelling skill. She has a gentle way of getting there, but I think she has some points to make.
I also would say about the diary/memoir, it's a way to provide the intimacy that Jean mentions. And I don't think it's much different than reading any first person narrative, where we're asked to suspend our disbelief. We all know if a person was really telling a novel-length story, they would never be able to relate each conversation word for word. But we put that knowledge aside and enjoy the intimacy the first person point of view brings. And with a diary, it feels even more intimate--these are secrets the reader is being let in on.
I stated in a separate conversation with Ken that my reading experience with 19th century English lit. is this book and Jude the Obscure so I have been wondering how Anne Bronte compares with other authors of the same time period. Personally, I think this is light reading compared to Jude the Obscure. Hardy had more depth to just about everything but it is still early perhaps in Tenant and maybe it gets better. Certainly it is entertaining and I am not bored but, to me anyway, it is a grocery store end-cap read compared to Hardy's novel.
Darrin wrote: "I stated in a separate conversation with Ken that my reading experience with 19th century English lit. is this book and Jude the Obscure so I have been wondering how Anne Bronte compares with other..."I think this is what we might consider fluff today, not quiet on par with bodice rippers, but boy meets girl, they don’t like each other, things change, they fall in love and marry.
Mod
Exactly - not the personal aspect, but please give the novel time, before confining it to some second-rate ghetto of Victorian fiction. There is plenty of Victorian fiction that is so-so. Just because something is old, does not make it a classic. But this one is :)
My comments are not really meant to disparage the book and, perhaps calling it a grocery store end-cap novel is over the top. I was just comparing it to my only other Victorian read, Thomas Hardy's Jude the Obscure which, to me anyway, just had more meat on it.That said, and to echo what Sandra said, the next section gets more deeply into marital issues and I am finding the character of Helen just gets more and more interesting. There are comments that Helen makes about the other characters which are really insightful which leads me to the conclusion that Anne Bronte had a good depth of understanding of the human character.
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Yes, tomorrow night brings the Super Bowl with its overinflated commercials that are supposed to be "just that" (but seldom are), but either after that competition around 9:30 EST or maybe during halftime the thread will appear.
The ritual at Super Bowl halftimes remains the same each year: I vacate the room to avoid the halftime show and my wife enters to watch it. She calls it "the best part." I call it "regrettable."
But back to Ännë, I'm sure we'll be asking her tomorrow night how the supposed brief digression of Helen's diary turned into Godzilla and took over the book, wresting it from King Kong Gilbert with a flash of reptilian finesse.
(Begging the question: Did Ms. Brontë even know about Tokyo Bay and the Empire State Building?)
Sandra and Jean, and probably others, as I have read well into the second volume now I agree that the whole tenor of the book changes. Helen is a very different narrator than Gilbert. But I know we will be discussing this next week. I do admit I have misjudged this book too soon. Perhaps Anne was making a point on her theme by having Gilbert be her initial narrator.
Ginny, I read with interest your comment about Mr. Huntingdon grooming Helen. Any efforts to resist him and he "punishes" her by withdrawing his affections and flirting with other women. In the library, he "forcibly possessed himself" of Helen's hand. Moments later on the same page she is wanting to flee the room but he has his knee on her dress. (p132 in the version I have.) He is definitely manipulating her like a predator would. I also noticed that he doesn't pay much attention to her artwork unless it happens to be a sketch of himself. A touch of narcissism, perhaps? Anyway, I'm not as far a long in my reading as most of you are, but I can tell her relationship with Mr. Huntingdon is not going to end well.
In a previous conversation with her aunt, Helen thinks she can "save" him but I'm guessing Mr. Huntingdon does not want to be saved.
Cindy, grooming is the perfect description for behavior that probably had not been identified in that century.
Cindy - I agree with Sue - your comment is spot-on, and the instances you pick out are very revealing. We, and Helen, have plenty of forewarning, but she is so besotted that even though she records it faithfully, she cannot see it.
18 year old girls getting besotted over older good-looking men is nothing new. When you consider her options, I'm sure the idea of "saving him from himself" seemed like a good idea. Her Aunt knew what would happen, but was incapable of stopping it. That is nothing new either, as any parent can tell you.
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Grooming in the other sense of the word is sadly done a lot today. As I teach ages from 4 up to teenagers it is something I have to learn about extensively in Safeguarding. "Grooming" is establishing a relationship with a child, building their trust, only to then betray them by using them. In my area, it is mostly building relationship with teenagers to then use them to sell and distribute drugs. There are worse uses for it too. I'm not sure why it is called "grooming", perhaps the term comes from the idea of tending to them, like a beard, by slowly gaining their friendship and trust. I'm not sure.
Mod
Well, if there's a more modern use of the word, there you have it. A lot of words have been appropriated in weird ways. Some I thought innocent are now out of bounds.
Mod
It's early where I am, and I haven't had my coffee yet so am a bit snarky, but can't they think of new words so we can continue to use the old words as we have for ... a lifetime? :-/
I think it entered into the "mainstream" in the 90s. Perhaps it's more commonly used in England? It is used very often here on the News. In fact, I only read about "grooming" as in grooming a horse in Victorian novels and always presume it is the other meaning whenever I hear it today. I suppose English is infamous for having words with multiple meanings, maybe that's why my friends born outside of the UK complain about how stupid our language is!
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From google "research" of the term "grooming," it has been used in conjunction with sexual predators from as early as 1985 and perhaps earlier.
Thanks Cindy. I know I have heard it used, whether in the news, documentaries or tv shows, for many years .
Sue wrote: "I know I have heard it used, whether in the news, documentaries or tv shows, for many years"Me too Sue. Sexual "grooming" is well in the vernacular here in the UK, as is the alternative and eminently repectable "well-groomed" to mean a fastidious attention to appearance and dress. (Originally this was for women, but increasingly it is used more in respect of men.)
Cindy's initial use of the word stresses the older person exerting their power over a younger one (the gender is immaterial, although it is almost invariably for sexual gratification) and Matthew also picked up that aspect straightaway, because of his work.
Context is all! The word has at least 3 distinct meanings. "Grooming" would not be used in this sense in a Victorian novel. As Matthew said we anticipate it being used of horses and their grooms, and not in either of the other two senses! Horses, of course were far more prevalent in England then anyway, and the way people got about. But language moves on, and our current use has developed because as a society we are more open about sexual matters, and conscious of this unsavoury aspect now, (and less perhaps of horse-grooming!)
This meaning may not have yet been coined, but the situation certainly had! And that means we can use it to indicate the power Arthur is exerting over the impressionable young Helen, and Cindy has give us several textual examples of this.
So I've reached chapter 12, hopefully will catch up soon - I'm never ready to go on the 1st of the month which is my bad!I agree with some of the sentiment above - bit of a muddy start, it is going places right now at least. I though we were going to get a full epistolary novel, but we haven't.
Though I'm not sure I am endeared to Gilbert Markham at all. Mrs Graham at least has a sense of mystery tinged with implacability. Gilbert seems to find her son very endearing. Perhaps it has caused Mrs Graham a state of maturity that an Eliza Millward has not?
Will chime in again when completed volume I. My favourite chapter so far was probably chapter 4, The Party. I enjoyed some of the character descriptions:
Mr Millward was mighty in important dogmas and sententious joes...
Jane with an "ungenial self-consciousness about her, that negatived all her advantages...
Mary Millward: "short, decided way of answering and refusing, and was supposed to be rather sullen than diffident"...
Eliza: "charming beyond description, coquettish without affectation, and evidently more desirous to engage my attention than that of all the room besides"...
Fergus: "impertinent and absurd; but his impertinence and folly served to make others laugh..."
Mr Lawrence: "A spirit of candour and frankness, when wholly unaccompanied with coarseness, he admired in others, but he could not acquire it himself..."
These I enjoyed
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The Obscure Reading Group
Books mentioned in this topic
Les Miserables (other topics)The Three Musketeers (other topics)
The Count of Monte Cristo (other topics)
Jude the Obscure (other topics)
Jude the Obscure (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Wilkie Collins (other topics)Thomas Moore (other topics)
Emily Brontë (other topics)
Virginia Woolf (other topics)
Thomas Hardy (other topics)
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