If you're not in the U.S., what's up in your part of the world? Showing 751-800 of 3,266

[Scout]

Going with political correctness in this situation denies the rights of genetic females who have trained and given it all they have to compete -- against other genetic females. Adding genetic males to the mix robs these women of a chance to compete fairly. It's just wrong. The only fair competition would be between the males who identify as females. Let them compete in an entirely different category and stop beating up the women. Logical and fair to all.

[J.]

Just to muddy the waters, trans-woman Blaire White on trans-woman athletes.

https://youtu.be/20vfmSjnYFw

[Philip]

Scout wrote: "Going with political correctness in this situation denies the rights of genetic females who have trained and given it all they have to compete -- against other genetic females. Adding genetic males..."

Completely agree!

[Ian]

Europe seemingly has had some terrible rain storms, but this also happened in NZ over the weekend. In the town of Westport the Buller river rose over 12 meters apparently and has forced evacuation on 20% of the houses and cut off all road access to the town in three directions (the sea is the fourth)_. There has never been a flood quite like this there.

On a personal level, the storm here blew a chunk of vegetation onto the the mouth of the downpipe to my guttering so I had to get out the ladder to unblock it and stop the flood of overflow water from pouring into my garage. A good test for wet weather gear! The wind also blew down a tree so that is something else I have to deal with eventually.

[Graeme]

If a female athlete had substantial performance enhancing surgery and hormone adjustment, would she be allowed to compete against other females?

[Papaphilly]

Graeme wrote: "If a female athlete had substantial performance enhancing surgery and hormone adjustment, would she be allowed to compete against other females?"

Okay,

If the Olympic games are held and the female weightlifting is held. I predict she does not come home with a medal. Then what?

I am not trying to stir the pot and I certainly understand where everyone that has expressed an opinion stands. I have no issue with anyone's opinion. I am the first to say I am not sure I think it is fair either. Yet, I also place faith in the doctors that these athletes do not have an unfair advantage. In all fairness to those that think this is political correctness run amok, think about this, the Olympics have it in their best interest to ensure fair games. Otherwise it could destroy the institution.

When Pistorious applied to run with his blades, the committee had to make the same decisions about whether he had an unfair advantage too. It is a process, not a snap decision.

One last thing to think about, if these women are being cheated, why is not one of them boycotting? That would make a statement and delegitimize the games if the athletes themselves walked away.

Oh by the way, if it was a transgendered male wanting to box against other natural biological men, would that be OK?

[Scout]

Here's the conclusion of a scholarly study of transgender males who have undergone testosterone suppression:
"Conclusions
We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in clinical settings, and which comfortably exceed the requirements of sports federations for inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories by reducing testosterone levels to well below the upper tolerated limit, evidence for loss of the male performance advantage, established by testosterone at puberty and translating in elite athletes to a 10–50% performance advantage, is lacking. Rather, the data show that strength, lean body mass, muscle size and bone density are only trivially affected. The reductions observed in muscle mass, size, and strength are very small compared to the baseline differences between males and females in these variables, and thus, there are major performance and safety implications in sports where these attributes are competitively significant. These data significantly undermine the delivery of fairness and safety presumed by the criteria set out in transgender inclusion policies, particularly given the stated prioritization of fairness as an overriding objective (for the IOC). If those policies are intended to preserve fairness, inclusion and the safety of biologically female athletes, sporting organizations may need to reassess their policies regarding inclusion of transgender women.
https://link.springer.com/article/10....
To summarize, genetic males who have undergone testosterone suppression retain muscle mass, size, and strength that give them advantages over genetically female athletes. Again, I say, based on this study and others, create a different category and let them compete against equals. Give the women a fair chance to compete against each other, not against genetic males. What say you?

[Philip]

Scout wrote: "Here's the conclusion of a scholarly study of transgender males who have undergone testosterone suppression:
"Conclusions
We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in..."

That is the only way I can see a fair competition.

[Papaphilly]

Scout wrote: "Here's the conclusion of a scholarly study of transgender males who have undergone testosterone suppression:
"Conclusions
We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typically used in..."

Wait and watch the competition. When she does not win, place, or show, then what? As I have said there is history on my side. If I am wrong and these people run away with the competition, people will stop watching. That will be the ultimate response.

[Ian]

I am with Scout on this one. There is a clear advantage in body shape and body mass. If a male is not allowed to take hormones/steroids to make them "more male" I fail to see why someone should be allowed to take hormones/steroids to make them more female and compete against females

[Nik]

Papaphilly wrote: "Oh by the way, if it was a transgendered male wanting to box against other natural biological men, would that be OK?..."

If we mention boxing, they box per weight categories. A much smaller guy can't confront a much bigger one, but they are allowed to put up/down weight and thus move btw weight categories. Some boxers claimed belts in a few weight categories! Extrapolating from weight categories, we can say that man/woman can theoretically move btw genders. Polgar sisters example comes to mind - they refused to play women chess and competed (quite successfully) solely in men's division.
In general, we see cross-discipline events, like Floyd Mayweather confronting NBA or MMA stars. In cinematography, I remember that epic fight btw tiny Bruce Lee vs giant Kareem Abdul Jabbar :)
In gladiator times ppl were forced to confront even wild animals and maybe Putin still does 😊
Having said all that, I don’t see adding transgenders to regular sport disciplines as anything good. I wouldn’t want gender division to be mixed up either. In tennis for example, they have a separate competition for mixed man/woman couples.
If it makes me a homophobe – be it 😊 , especially since I don’t see myself dating one. I deem more important not to be shamed into silence. They won’t tell me who a woman is 😊 , but I won’t define anyone’s identity for them either.
I fully support autonomy of an individual and consensual unions. They can be man/woman every other day – really none of my business. They should be able to formalize their unions, change gender, do whatever.
I’m not sure, I’d support an adoption of children by gay or lesbian couples, unless I see convincing studies that this won’t tip their “natural” sex orientation..
In a practical sense as a lawyer and a notary, when confirming affidavits and other acts, I’d probably opt for identifying a person and omitting a gender. Had instances when according to i.d. – the person is male while in appearance isn’t or vice versa…

[Philip]

In the case of the Olympic athlete they have already gained an advantage by getting selected through qualifying; i.e. a female athlete has not gone to Tokyo because the Transgender one was selected ahead. That already probably means a loss to the female non-selected in terms of sponsorship, career progression etc regardless of outcome in actual event. All sports in Olympics have qualifying but where multiple qualify on time/weight distance etc then top x go.

[Papaphilly]

Ian wrote: "I am with Scout on this one. There is a clear advantage in body shape and body mass. If a male is not allowed to take hormones/steroids to make them "more male" I fail to see why someone should be ..."

Except you can say that about any sports. There is a reason that tall people play in the NBA. Height brings an advantage. It is building on advantages that can make the differences.


Philip wrote: "In the case of the Olympic athlete they have already gained an advantage by getting selected through qualifying; i.e. a female athlete has not gone to Tokyo because the Transgender one was selected. That already probably means a loss to the female non-selected in terms of sponsorship..."

Or not. Have any transgendered gained sponsorship? Lets us assume for the moment that all of you are the mainstream and I am the outlier (in this case, I suspect it is not an assumption). What does a sponsor gain by aggravating its client base? The NFL and NBA have learned the hard way and others are watching what happened to them.

Once again, I point out the doctors on the Olympic committee have made their decision based on medical decisions. I really do not think this was done lightly. They do themselves no favor if they irritate the entire world that is not nearly as liberal as the western world (not that the western world is that liberal in this case). If this turns out to be a cheat, the world will stop watching. that is a daunting thought to potentially kill your sport for political correctness.

Remember the Olympic committee has responded harshly in the past to unfair competition including the American sprinter over marijuana. they could have easily overlook the rules because she would be a big draw, but they said no. Once gain like it or not, the weightlifter followed the rules laid down. She did not break any.

[Ian]

Yes, tall people play in the NBA, but the short people choose another sport. The point here is that we had someone who trained as a weight lifter as a male, did not make it, then transferred to being a woman while retaining the same body. Would you think it fair that someone who lost out to the NBA callus and at 7 foot tall transferred to some woman's equivalent?

The issue is not did she break any rules, but rather are the rules just plain wrong?

[Papaphilly]

Ian wrote: "The issue is not did she break any rules, but rather are the rules just plain wrong? ..."

I have no idea, except they are put into place to ensure competitiveness and nobody gets an unfair advantage. To say she has an unfair advantage is to say she is going to win because she was a man. Time will tell. I am saying it again, she does not come close.

[Ian]

Except that rules are increasingly being bent towards political correctness. Yes, time will tell, and there is no point in trying to predict the outcome.

[Philip]

In this case the US allowed participation fearing a law suit if they blocked it. The athlete has already benefited from free travel, training facilities, accommodation etc. It's not just sponsorship. Some get annual salaries/central contracts for being on a team. Qualification in one event leads to auto invites in other events with appearance money, and associated attendance perks. The woman who missed out on selection has lost all of these, not to another woman

Yes the doctors have set legal definitions and these may have been met - mostly its a pure testosterone test not body mass/muscle. Rules have been challenged but IAAF, IOC etc are all scared of law suits in US and Europe. The level allowed is discussed here in 2019

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...

...they maintain serum testosterone levels below 5 nanomoles per liter (nmol/L) for at least six months prior to competition. Most females have testosterone levels ranging from 1.12 to 1.79 nmol/L while the normal adult male range is 7.7 -- 29.4 nmol/L.

In other words they are allowed T 4-5 times higher than normal females. Given T is known to improve performance (men used to take it to get competitive advantages alongside steroid abuse) why is this allowed?

Some women(approx 7 per 1,000 according to article) have naturally high T levels (possibly drug induced - casting aspersions as athletes are known to have used drugs) - These are regularly tested as are all performers but for Trans - the higher level is accepted. If their T level was below 2 then I might buy they have no advantage other than development years for height weight and muscle.

Trans transition drugs also can mask other drug use - a common cheat method from cycling to other sports thus making detection harder for performance enhancing to sex changing or non-trans competitors.

How do I know some of this - once upon a time I worked at London organising committee for 2012 - we had briefings and had to set up the buildings and routes for drug testing to avoid cheats getting around the rules - urine under toilet doors etc.

If this trans athlete has T below 2 then fine if above then no. As I explained they have already won by getting selected and benefited accordingly. The female athlete that missed selection has already lost.

By the way in more current role we had the issue of a trans female going to a female prison so they could rape and assault female inmates. Their T levels were still male.

[Nik]

Ian wrote: "Yes, tall people play in the NBA, but the short people choose another sport...."

Hey, hey, some respect to Spud Webb :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spud_Webb
A brilliant player just 1.68 m tall

[Ian]

Ah, I had never heard of Spud Webb so my apologies to him, but i stand by my argument :-)

[J.J.]

Papaphilly wrote: "Scout wrote: "Here's the conclusion of a scholarly study of transgender males who have undergone testosterone suppression:
"Conclusions
We have shown that under testosterone suppression regimes typ..."

I have to agree with the spirit of this. The only way it's going to be settled is to let them compete and see what happens. If they in fact run away with the medals, then you'll see a backlash from those athletes who were born as women, and sooner or later, this will be squashed. If like you said, these athletes can't compete, then they could end up being treated as a joke. "Couldn't compete with other men, so he transitioned, and can't even compete against the women!"

[Papaphilly]

Ian wrote: "Ah, I had never heard of Spud Webb so my apologies to him, but i stand by my argument :-)"

There were a few NBA players that were both very short and had nice careers. They are the exception that proved the rule. Spud Webb, Muggsy Bogues, and Earl Boykins had great careers with with longevity. there were others, but they did not last long.

[☘Misericordia☘]

Papaphilly wrote: "Yet, I also place faith in the doctors that these athletes do not have an unfair advantage." There's no reason for that faith, you know?

The trans operations are a giant business. Basically, this is a new service that can be sold to lots of population. The more the better. It's getting advertised throughout all the media so the medical industry can just hitch a free ride. Whether all the people having these operations services to them are born in the wrong bodies or it's just a temporary gender dysphoria happening to them is NOT the main point for the clinics. It's not even their concern as long as they have all the prescribed documents in order. For them it's just risk management, profits and cushy bottomlines.

When some of the newly trans people get fed up with their new bodies, a new layer of services for putting people back the way they were can be developed and, again, sold. Probably at much higher prices, too.

So, this is a giant business on the rise we're talking about. There's no earthly reason for the doctors (who are people per se and can be mistaken, who get salaries, who are motivated by 'effective managers', who don't want to look for new jobs, who don't want to be blackballed in their industry or labelled 'transphobic', etc) to say anything against it all. Maybe, in, like, 20 years, when a massive body of stats will be amassed on how the MtF trans are immensely more succcessful in sports than either vanilla Fs or FtMs, only then the docs might say smth against it. After making lots of money for themselves and all the clinics benefitting from this trend AND after all those women lose out on incredible opportunities...

[☘Misericordia☘]

Papaphilly wrote: "OK fair enough. There is no point on going any further on this discussion."
No need to pout since no one is saying anything against trans LGBTQIA people here. But women shouldn't be shoved out of this world, this life, all the fair opportunities. We don't want the Kueche, Kirche, Kinder outlook. Never again.

Let's just remember that all the LGBTQIA are probably ~1% of the population, maybe if all the closet cases, mild asexuals, etc had a mega-large coming out, maybe LGBTQIA would reach 5-10% of the population. Maybe. Likely no.

The rest of the population is about 50/50 M/F. And it would be mostly those >45% of the world F population that give birth to most of the next generations (and are much smarter than the Ms, duh!) So do have some respect to Fs, will ya?

PS That's me lumping all the Ls, Gs, Bis, Aces and the rest of the rainbow together in with Ts. But, frankly, I do think that most of the rainbow might be just as conflicted about Ts competing agains Fs as I would be. So, that's, what? 0.1% of the population getting 99.9% under their newly acquired heel?

I'd say no, that shouldn't work like that. That's not even democratic. The majority should not be turned into a reverse minority.

So let all the Ts compete against each other, fair and square. The rest of us would love to see those competitions w/o any Fs getting their less dense skulls bashed in.

[Papaphilly]

Why do you have lines running through some your words?

[Nik]

Just a semi-humorous take: to write and than cross out females being smarter than males. I would leave it as it is :)

[Papaphilly]

☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "No need to pout since no one is saying anything against trans LGBTQIA people here...."

Maybe you do not understand what is being said here. At no time has anyone said anything against the letter coalition. My point in my statement is based on the idea if the other side of this discussion does not see Trans as the sex they changed to, there is no need to go any further on this part of the conversation. This is because if the Trans is not seen as a female (male), there is nothing I can say that will give anyone any food for thought to make them think otherwise. Their opinion is settled. That is fine and I am fine as I always am with opinion.

Saying a Trans should not compete is not the same as saying they should not exist or there is something wrong with them; nor is it anti-woman.

[☘Misericordia☘]

Papaphilly wrote: "the other side of this discussion does not see Trans as the sex they changed to"
1) This discussion is a bit on a different topic. Ts are perfectly fine and ok and there's no contesting that or whatever.

2) But, biologically/medically, there are issues that are specific to Ts.
- Just how many MtF trans women can give birth or live w/o hormone therapy?
- How many Fs need to use 'dilators' to get their vag up to date to use actively?
- The hygiene requirements are sorta different...
- Imagine some gaga gynecologist not taking into account the T-origins of their patient's privates and prescribing stuff, like, I dunno, pills, abortions, all kinds of operations, etc blindly or mistakenly?

Like, imagine an MtF coming to gyno bleeding? For F it could be a menstruation and a norm and easily dismissed as a non-cconcern ('come in again in a day, see if it doesn't stop on its own'). For MtF it would likely be a life-threatening thing and in a day the person in question could bleed out and die.

I don't think many Ts would be happy in the aftermath of getting treatments designed for F needs... The reverse would also apply: I would be really suprised at being given a set of dildoes to 'dilate'.

Besides, let's just consider that if there's an apocalipse tomorrow, there will be about 0 MtFs. They would likely live and all, and still have those nifty neo-privates but their bodies would depend on what internal hormonal sources they haven't yet chopped up. So, they wouldn't be as feminine as they would have liked to be.The only exceptions will be (likely) for MtFs who have some sort of internal source of estrogen in their bodies (and were, basically, Intersex from the start).

Yeah, there are original Fs with the same issue(s) but for Fs it's usually a requirement of some generally non-elected illness while for MtFs it's generally a requirement based on their gender perception. There are some exclusions, mostly for people who are Intersex but, you get it, right?

So, while gender is a fluent thing and everyone has all the imaginable and some unimaginable rights, vanilla women should not suffer due to other people's lifestyle choices and rights...

[Papaphilly]

Do me a favor and spell out the words. That is for the benefit of all. As for the biology of what trans go through, I do not care nor is it germane to this particular discussion. This discussion is about competitive advantages. My point was in the end there will no be no competitive advantages and if it turns out I am wrong, there will be corrections made. My other point was that some of the others do not think Trans are women even if they undergo the operation. If they only see men no matter what happens, there is no point to go further because they do not see Trans as the sexual choice they make.

I keep asking the same two questions, the answer to the first is they do not want them to compete against women. Fair answer.

The second question I cannot seem to get is if there are Trans men competing against men, is that OK?

The answer should be the same.

Any other tangent is not part of this discussion and while a fair subject, should be started on a different thread.

My prediction: this goes away much faster than one would assume, especially when these Trans do not run away with the competition.

[☘Misericordia☘]

Papaphilly wrote: "Do me a favor and spell out the words. That is for the benefit of all." Nope, I'm too lazy for that. LGBTQIA-based abbreviations are perfectly understandable..

Papaphilly wrote: "My other point was that some of the others do not think Trans are women even if they undergo the operation."That's not a point. The issue is that Ts have specific medical issues and considerations that are different from the ones Fs have.

Germane or not but if you are 2x as heavy as I am, have a longer stride, denser bones and 2x as much muscle strength as I do, you probably will outsport me at most sports (every one but chess and maybe shooting?).

So, it's a non-issue whether I welcome you as a woman now (I most likely do, it's really not my business how you see yourself and all.). The issue is that you still acquired all that stuff when you were a guy.... And I never were a guy and never swam in testosterone... Not fair.

MtFs should go and compete with guys if they think men and women have same physical parameters.

[☘Misericordia☘]

Papaphilly wrote: "The second question I cannot seem to get is if there are Trans men competing against men, is that OK?

The answer should be the same." Of course not.

Basically, of the 4: M, F, FtM, MtF, the Fs are the weakest since most women never take testosterone shots/pills and do not have naturally high levels of testosterone and don't undergo the male puberty cycle. (And in sport all of that's actively prohibited for Fs.)

FtMs are generally weaker than Ms since they didn't go through male puberty and growth spurts and all that testosterone-based stuff. So, if some rare FtM manages to, I dunno, outbox Ms, it wouldn't be unfair. It never happens, for some reason, though.

All the while the MtFs regularly outsport vanilla Fs. Think that's a fluke?

[J.]

☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "...LGBTQIA-based abbreviations are perfectly understandable.."

As near as I can tell, the LGBTQIASNAFU4F lexicon of abbreviations was conceived to be as confusing as possible to outsiders. I can only assume this was done in an intentional effort to make the unfamiliar ask so that they can then be derided as homophobes. Seriously, I have seen military and scientific jargon that was less impenetrable than this stuff. And as I understand it, the Q in LGBTQ stands for Queer, but YOLO Jesus help you if you dare to refer to someone as queer.

So please, for the sake of us less educated readers, post some definitions for your abbreviations.

[Graeme]

An online glossary of terms?

[Lizzie]

Papaphilly wrote: "Once again fair enough. One last question for the two of you. Are you friends or at least antiquated with any transgendered?"

M ex-spouse person is trans. While she felt certain ways as a child and exhibited certain behaviors, she was since a young teen a part of the Chicago construction scene. Rejection of friends, family or co-workers were not an issue as "he" did not act out on whatever was inside. I married him when he was 28 and about 10 years into the marriage, he fell apart. The shrinks told him this was his diagnosis. He fought it for a while and then accepted it and "came out". At first it was external things - clothes, make up - and I was willing to live with it as I married a person and not an appendage. He/She wasn't willing to stay married to me. I waited 2 years to finalize my divorce because I thought, "She will get over it." It's not something someone suffering from gender dysphoria just gets over.

She is a lesbian transwoman taking hormones to increase estrogen and anti-androgens to decrease testosterone. We remain good friends. She was my children's stepparent. My daughter simply accepts her. My son cannot think of her as anything except the person who existed as his stepfather. She is a nicer person than he was.

As a result of my interaction with my ex-spouse, I have become friends with other trans people, some being male to female and others being female to male. With clothes on, I couldn't tell you whether a man standing in front of me was born that way or is trans. Facial hair seems to grow easily. However, I cannot believe anyone chooses to be trans just to win a competition. It is hell, physically, emotionally and socially. My ex has not had any surgeries because of costs, .Just from the hormones she has lost muscle and her skin is different. The bone structure doesn't change but the ability to use it did. Gender Reassignment Surgery is not a process anyone would do on a lark.

Despite having been involved in my situation since 2009, I am still torn as to what defines being female. I cannot deny what she feels and lives, but she will never be me. That she never got to experience growing up female is one of those things that saddens her, As a woman, there is no way I can imagine growing up or living as a male.

On a purely language level, I really resent words being changed such that plural pronouns are used with singular meaning or that I have a new label of "cisgender" meaning "born female".

[Nik]

I think Misericordia offers a good display of biological and other aspects for consideration. MtF and otherwise, I believe means Male to Female, T - Trans and so on..

[☘Misericordia☘]

Nik wrote: "I think Misericordia offers a good display of biological and other aspects for consideration. MtF and otherwise, I believe means Male to Female, T - Trans and so on.."
Yep) Thise are my definitions. Thanks, Nik!

[J.J.]

Papaphilly wrote: "The second question I cannot seem to get is if there are Trans men competing against men, is that OK?..."

I've been trying to avoid chiming in on this question because I haven't been able to find the source I had seen...I can't even remember if it was posted here or another board I frequent, so feel free to give what I'm about to say some skepticism.

But...the military had put out a report that women who transitioned to men out performed the genetic males on the fitness tests after two years of treatments. this shouldn't be a surprise. You pump anyone up with testosterone treatments, and of course they'll outperform people dealing with their own natural T levels.

I think you're dealing with separate arguments when talking about trans men and trans women because you're looking at chemical enhancement in one group, and natural advantage in the other. And that's probably why you're not getting an answer to the second question, because right now all eyes are on men transitioning to women and competing in women's sports, and we don't really have examples of the other side coming into the public consciousness yet.

[Nik]

Feels like we are back at the "duck test" :) : https://www.mirror.co.uk/usvsth3m/you...
The only 2 things that are clear about Trans is that they are human beings and should be able to compete. All the rest is arguable and the main question pertaining this discussion is competing with whom?
If to refer to Papaphilly's question "If they only see men no matter what happens, there is no point to go further because they do not see Trans as the sexual choice they make." I personally see Trans, not exactly a man and not exactly a woman, however my perspective should be relatively irrelevant. I hope there would be enough people who'd see them as they deem themselves. For competing - regular women's opinion should also be taken into account.
Should apply to FtM (if I borrow Misericordia's terminology :)), mutatis mutandis

[Papaphilly]

J.J. wrote: "I think you're dealing with separate arguments when talking about trans men and trans women because you're looking at chemical enhancement in one group, and natural advantage in the other. And that's probably why you're not getting an answer to the second question, because right now all eyes are on men transitioning to women and competing in women's sports, and we don't really have examples of the other side coming into the public consciousness yet. ..."

I suspect it is much more than that to be honest. It is a trap question without meaning to be one. If the answer is yes, then why not let trans women compete? If the answer is no because they do not see the trans man as a man and then they go and beat a man, that destroys the idea of women being weaker. I remember J.J.'s military report. I am not surprised either. The whole idea of testosterone replacement was to build muscle. Yet, the counterintuitive also stands to reason, when testosterone falls so does muscle mass.

[Papaphilly]

☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "So, if some rare FtM manages to, I dunno, outbox Ms, it wouldn't be unfair. It never happens, for some reason, though.

All the while the MtFs regularly outsport vanilla Fs. Think that's a fluke?,..."

Actually you are flat out wrong. History has shown that Trans do not beat out the best of the female athletes. They can certainly be competitive, but they not dominating. As for the male Trans there is at least one in MMA holding his own against other males and wins quite a bit.

I am going to say it again, when the Olympics is over and this Trans New Zealand woman does not bring home a medal, it will die. If Trans athletes start to run away with the female competitions, there there will be corrections, but I am more than willing to bet against them becoming dominant.

[Scout]

I posted a scholarly article that concluded that trans-gender women still have the physical benefits of being a male. It's a question of fairness, if that even matters in this world any more, which it obviously doesn't to many of you. But it matters to genetic women who have trained and put everything they have into qualifying for the Olympics. Who's arguing for their rights to a fair competition? Where's the support for women's rights?

[☘Misericordia☘]

Papaphilly wrote: "If the answer is yes, then why not let trans women compete? If the answer is no because they do not see the trans man as a man" As a matter of fact, 'seeing' is not instantly remaking this world into something no matter how much we're liking what we're seeing.

Sex change is a fluid thing, just like gender. If I start taking testosterone today, I won't turn into a guy or even start sporting a mini-penis by tomorrow. But I might, if I take those hormones for, say, a decade.

So, if a person, a year ago, was a guy, biologically, no matter how effeminate one (yes, I've met bio-guys who are worlds more feminine than I am, I know, right?), they still would not lose ALL of their male biology enhancements overnight. Maybe in 20 years, maybe in 45, maybe never but definitely not in a couple of mnths or a year of taking testosterone blockators.

The issue is not whether their muscle mass or smth else goes down. Something probably does, estrogens do that to you.

The issue is whether ALL of their unfair advantage goes away instantly. It definitely doesn't: nothing happens instantly.

[☘Misericordia☘]

Papaphilly wrote: "History has shown that Trans do not beat out the best of the female athletes. They can certainly be competitive, but they not dominating. As for the male Trans there is at least one in MMA holding his own against other males and wins quite a bit."
What history? Are you a time traveller? You'll have history amassed in a hundred years, not in 5-10 or however long sex change ops have been around.

Ts do not beat out the best of the female athletes? Of course they don't, statistically there just aren't enough of them around to beat all the female athletes, some of whom are probably the best. Let's just count:
All the LGBTQIA are about 1% of any population. >
Some of them are Ts. >
Some of the Ts actually follow through with hormone therapy. >
Some of the Ts who take hormones do the sex change ops. >
Some of the Ts who did the sex change are competitive and sportsy. >
Some of them win in sports competitions, so there's frankly, a very minuscule proportion of the population who are Ts who compete in sports with women, against them. So, statistically, we shouldn't have ever heard of them, since they are so frakking rare. Yet we do keep hearing of them so it's likely that they ARE getting benefits out of their unfair advantage... Statistically.

[Papaphilly]

☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "Yet we do keep hearing of them so it's likely that they ARE getting benefits out of their unfair advantage... Statistically. ..."

Why do we keep hearing about it? Since as a group, they are so rare, why do we keep hearing about them? Until about a month go, I had no idea they even were in the Olympics. Suddenly everyone that had an axe to grind against Trans athletes spouted off. That made me wonder what was going on and I looked. I did not find this group of athletes running away with the competition. If there is such an unfair advantage, then no matter how small the sample size, they should represent winners in numbers than one would statistically expect, and they do not. It is possible the sample size is much too small and this may change over time, but in this case I doubt it.

So why do we suddenly hear about them? Because someone wants us to hear about Trans athletes. From what I have seen, it sounds like spoiled entitled athlete sour grapes. It is not fair I did not win. It is someones fault.

I am going to say it again. If this group of athletes suddenly start to run away with the prizes, then there will be a reckoning, but if they do not it will go away fast.

Once again no matter what anyone says, this group has followed the rules and the Olympic committee allows them to participate. If you do not like it, do not watch the games.

[☘Misericordia☘]

Papaphilly wrote: "they should represent winners in numbers than one would statistically expect, and they do not"Well, do name those stats? Numbers... numbers... From what I listed above, I'd say, we should reasonably expect 1 or maybe 2 such cases. If we got more, either some seriously strange factors are afoot or, well, my point's proven.

Papaphilly wrote: "So why do we suddenly hear about them? Because someone wants us to hear about Trans athletes." Big Brother? I knew that!

Papaphilly wrote: " this group has followed the rules and the Olympic committee allows them to participate. " I think that we, as a species, should be different from lemmings, somehow. Like, if the rules we just made are bonkers, we'd better correct them.

[Papaphilly]

☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "Well, do name those stats? Numbers... numbers... From what I listed above, I'd say, we should reasonably expect 1 or maybe 2 such cases. If we got more, either some seriously strange factors are afoot or, well, my point's proven. , ..."

Well how many have won major competitions? If this group is correct, then the weight lifter should run away with the gold. when she does not, then what? When she does not even take any medal, then what?

[Papaphilly]

☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "Big Brother? I knew that!, ..."

No, not big brother. Big pot stirrer.

[Papaphilly]

☘Misericordia☘ wrote: "I think that we, as a species, should be different from lemmings, somehow. Like, if the rules we just made are bonkers, we'd better correct them...."

Everyone having the same opinion on any given subject can be group think and lemming like behavior. This group, not so much.

[Papaphilly]

Out of curiosity, hs anyone watched much of the games in general?

[Scout]

Here's what happens when transgender females are allowed to compete with genetic females. https://fitnessvolt.com/tracey-lambre...

A New Zealand weightlifter by the name of Tracey Lambrechs, claims that she was given an ultimatum after the transgender athlete Laurel Hubbard's addition to the team. Lambrechs was a weightlifter for the New Zealand Olympic team, scoring as high as 13th in the 2016 Games. She also apparently was the best 75kg lifter on her team at the time too.

That was, at least until Laurel Hubbard entered her weight class, shattering all the records that she set. As Tracey explained in a recent interview, this led to her being forced to make a decision: either change weight classes, or retire from the sport altogether.

“At first I was pretty angry, pretty upset, pretty disappointed. There were a lot of emotions, but I really wasn’t that happy about it,” Lambrechs said.

“The way I found out was via a phone call from my coach at the time. It was like a Monday morning, and I got a phone call and I was told that all my records had just been broken. I was like ‘What do you mean? There’s no one else close to me, I shouldn’t have my records broken.’

Tracey said, “I was told Laurel (Hubbard) has started weightlifting and she competed on the weekend, so as of now, you’re number two,” Lambrechs continued. “I was told by the National Weightlifting body that I either needed to drop a weight category or look at retiring, because the competitions that we were looking at qualifying for could only see one per nation in the body weight.

“So they were like ‘It’s not going to be you, so your options are lose 18 kilos in three months, or you can retire. I’m quite competitive so I lost the weight in three months.”

That said, after this happened, Tracey made the decision to retire. She said that she was disappointed in how things were handled, and chose to walk away rather than be forced to accommodate Laurel Hubbard.

Tracey said, "I was disappointed with New Zealand weightlifting, and I was just not willing to put myself through any more disappointment. It wasn’t worth me being upset anymore at the situation and the way I was treated as an athlete."

I hope that all of you guys will watch this video from a former Olympic athlete's point of view. This will give you insight into what it's really like to be a woman athlete.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZvOl...

[☘Misericordia☘]

Papaphilly wrote: "Everyone having the same opinion on any given subject can be group think and lemming like behavior. This group, not so much" The rules... are made by people for people. People can be mistaken and it's all right. But corrections should be made whenever errors happen.