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Used and Abused: Words and Cliches
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MrsJoseph *grouchy*
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Apr 18, 2018 08:05AM
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Cheryl wrote: "One test it passes with flying colors, *despite* the fact that it's got a strong romantic sub-plot, is the Bechdel test. Apply that to your reads if you're tired of fake strong women. "I've seen a couple of books by (male) authors who pretty obviously learned about the Bechdel test and dutifully add one scene where two women talk about shopping. A more recent test is the Mako Mori test, where the criterion is that a female character has her own story/growth arc that doesn't depend on a male character's.
Lilyn G. (Scifi and Scary) wrote: "Becky wrote: "Now I'm picturing all of these dudes contouring their faces like Kim Kardashian."I just laughed way too loudly at work -.- lol"
Heh, sorry!
Lilyn G. (Scifi and Scary) wrote: "Somehow until this thread, I'd never heard of the Bechdel test. Now I'm thinking back on all the books I've read and being like "Fail. Fail. Fail. Fail. Possibly fail? Fail. Fail. Definitely failed. Fail." lol "Failing the test doesn't necessarily mean that the book is bad. But it is an easy way to gauge how much an author/screenwriter/etc is paying attention to female characters.
Beth wrote: "I've seen a couple of books by (male) authors who pretty obviously learned about the Bechdel test and dutifully add one scene where two women talk about shopping. A more recent test is the Mako Mori test, where the criterion is that a female character has her own story/growth arc that doesn't depend on a male character's."I consider shopping/groceries, etc to be the same thing about talking about a man. That never passes the smell test with me.
But, female authors do this, too.
Mod
Just saw another one this morning. Not sure if this is a tic of this particular author, since it's the only series of theirs I've read (I won't specify author or series). They use "but" and "although" frequently enough that's it's very noticeable, and sometimes in contexts where it doesn't make any sense.On the current page, "a windowless but modest tower." Saying a tower is "windowless" doesn't presume anything about its size, so "and" would probably be better than "but."
It's all too easy to fall into. I have to pare out "but"s and "although"s from my reviews all the time. They're pernicious!
Allison wrote: "Yeah, Bechdel is really only about the lens we use when telling stories. Maki Moro is about seeing characters as fully realized people. Neither are about quality whatsoever!"That's right. Also, where exactly would you draw the line of character art "not supporting arc of a male character"? What if she helps a male to reach her own goals, but it helps said male too, does that qualify?
I read a book where the author had a problem conjugating the word "be." She used "had" in every damn sentence, it felt like. Maybe even multiple times in the sentence.
My "final note" on my review:
*I did a search for the word “had” in this book. This book shows a final location of 2592. I stopped at location 1434 as the search was killing my processors. I found 1800 instances of the word “had” by location 1434.
I compared that to How to Tell a Lie by Delphine Dryden. How to Tell a Lie has a final location of 2721. I found 391 instances of the word “had” in the entire book!
Becky wrote: "Now I'm picturing all of these dudes contouring their faces like Kim Kardashian."I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume you missed the 1980s. Between the British New Wave and American Glam Metal makeup sales went through the roof, and that was just because of the guys.
Mod
It's one thing when it's rare. But every couple of paragraphs, like in Dark Matter or Children of Blood and Bone grates on me.
MrsJoseph wrote: "I read a book where the author had a problem conjugating the word "be." She used "had" in every damn sentence, it felt like. Maybe even multiple times in the sentence.
My "final note" on my rev..."
Can I just say how much I enjoy that you did that kind of research. It seriously makes my day!
Allison wrote: "Oo, just thought of another. The "dramatic paragraph break."It's one thing when it's rare. But every couple of paragraphs, like in Dark Matter or Children of Blood and Bone grates on me."
Oo, just thought of another.
The "dramatic paragraph break."
It's one thing when it's rare. But every couple of paragraphs, like in Dark Matter or Children of Blood and Bone...
...grates on me.
Mod
Tomas wrote: "That's right. Also, where exactly would you draw the line of character art "not supporting arc of a male character"? What if she helps a male to reach her own goals, but it helps said male too, does that qualify.."IMO, if a female character has her own character arc - that is enough. Supporting other characters through their arcs happens via interpersonal relationships.
Now, if the female character was nothing BUT a supporting character helping a male character through HIS character arc... nope.
Allison wrote: "(Also, yeah, Tomas, can you please update your post to be more generic? Otherwise I will be forced to delete it, and that's frustrating for everyone.)"I edited out the part about you-know-what, hope it was the post you meant...
Kristin B. wrote: "Can I just say how much I enjoy that you did that kind of research. It seriously makes my day! :-D
Inquiring minds need to know!
Mod
I edited out the part about y..."
Thank you kindly sir!
Lilyn G. (Scifi and Scary) wrote: "Actually, all the books I've seen with the description - It has been on a man, lol. "Eep. Those poor guys. :(
It'd make physical contact fraught too.
"He snuggled into his wife, but she was left weeping at the slices across her body from his razor sharp cheekbones."
Trike wrote: "Becky wrote: "Now I'm picturing all of these dudes contouring their faces like Kim Kardashian."I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume you missed the 1980s. Between the British New Wave and American Glam Metal makeup sales went through the roof, and that was just because of the guys."
You'd be right... that was a bit before my time, and outside of my interests even if it wasn't.
Still, you're right, it's not new... it just struck me as funny. :)
I am returning to this topic, remembering that we talked about what characters are doing with their eyes and thought I just must share this line from a book I'm reading."Although I considered Saera to be more of a sister than anything else, I could still appreciate the toned physique. That was until Kelle shot me a knowing look that roughly translated into back the f**k off."
(I masked the F-word just to be safe)
Tomas wrote: "I am returning to this topic, remembering that we talked about what characters are doing with their eyes and thought I just must share this line from a book I'm reading."Although I considered Sae..."
lololol
My current hated word is "snarl/ed/ing." Been reading a lot of that lately. O_O
MrsJoseph wrote: "My current hated word is "snarl/ed/ing." Been reading a lot of that lately. O_O"When I see a male character growl something at a female, it's 100% the love interest.
Anna wrote: "MrsJoseph wrote: "My current hated word is "snarl/ed/ing." Been reading a lot of that lately. O_O"When I see a male character growl something at a female, it's 100% the love interest."
Yes! The same thing with the snarling. I don't get it - and I don't think I've actually seen it happen IRL. But these guys are snarling all over the place.
Mod
When I see a male character growl something at a female, it's 100% the love interest."
LOL! So true! And so weird. Who are these people who like being growled at? I think I hit the last person who growled at me.
It's something to do with the alpha craze I'm sure. I personally find it hard to imagine that being sexy, but that's fine since I don't usually look for sexy when picking a book.
Allison wrote: "LOL! So true! And so weird. Who are these people who like being growled at? I think I hit the last person who growled at me."*dies*
Lucky for me, the last person who growled at me was my puppy. Its much cuter from a puppy.
Anna wrote: "It's something to do with the alpha craze I'm sure. I personally find it hard to imagine that being sexy, but that's fine since I don't usually look for sexy when picking a book."But...it's not sexy. Its weird.
Mod
So... it's sexy because they're in touch with their inner puppy? I get it now.
Mod
XD
Anna wrote: "So... it's sexy because they're in touch with their inner puppy? I get it now."lmao
stick a fork in me, I'm done.
And I thought that snarling and growling is limited to either elusive enemy or moments of frustration.One never stops learning :)
"literally broke my heart"NO. This does not happen unless a superpowered something turns your heart to glass, rips it out of your chest, and shatters it on a nearby hard surface.
"intelligent and clever"
While I admit that both those terms mean things which are slightly different, using them in conjunction with each other has to be done very carefully and for good reasons. It is not a substitute for "very brainy."
Sha wrote: ""literally broke my heart"NO. This does not happen unless a superpowered something turns your heart to glass, rips it out of your chest, and shatters it on a nearby hard surface."
Or a piece of dark magic makes the victim's chest explode in a shower of gore. Alternatively, rocket launcher can do that too...
Mod
NO. This does not happen unless a superpowered something turns your heart to glass, rips it out of your chest, and shatters it on a nearby hard surface."
Or ..."
If someone used the phrase "literally broke my heart" to explain the effect of having a rocket launched at them, that would make me laugh pretty good.
colleen the convivial curmudgeon wrote: "Though sometimes I think of "with all due respect" as also saying "which is zero, because you are due zero respect, you moron, but I have to pretend because you're my boss."Yes this. Emphasizing the "due" makes me feel so much better.
OH MY GOD YES THE MASCULINE AND THE FEMININE I HATE THOSE ADJECTIVES SO MUCH ARGH.
Tomas wrote: "Also, where exactly would you draw the line of character art "not supporting arc of a male character"? What if she helps a male to reach her own goals, but it helps said male too, does that qualify?"
Ah, I think the fact that she has her own goals is the point. There's a reason why it's called the Mako Mori test- Mako definitely helps Releigh in his arc (get back to piloting, after the trauma of having his brother die on him), but she ALSO has her own arc (get her father to accept her as a competent fighter, and prove herself to be a competent fighter in her own right). Contrast this to say- Molly from the Farseer books by Robin Hobb, who is IMO an example of a supporting love interest with no arc of her own.
Anna wrote: "When I see a male character growl something at a female, it's 100% the love interest."
Oh yes, this.
Anna wrote: "So... it's sexy because they're in touch with their inner puppy? I get it now."
:3
If you couldn't tell, I just discovered this thread and am having fun with it. :D
Allison wrote: "Tomas wrote: "Sha wrote: ""literally broke my heart"NO. This does not happen unless a superpowered something turns your heart to glass, rips it out of your chest, and shatters it on a nearby hard ..."
Yesssss. All of these are acceptable usages of "literally broke my heart." (although I would still argue that literally tore my heart into pieces is a better phrase, because broken implies brittle)
Anna wrote: "So... it's sexy because they're in touch with their inner puppy? I get it now.":can't breathe:
Sha wrote: "Yesssss. All of these are acceptable usages of "literally broke my heart." (although I would still argue that literally tore my heart into pieces is a better phrase, because broken implies brittle)"Well, "exploded my heart" does not sounds just as well to me and "tore into pieces" is too long for a quick effect...
^point accepted. That does sound better.
Ha! Trike I feel like I’ve read that line a bunch lately and I haven’t even read Jade City!
I heard that "with all due respect" the otehr day in a TV show or movie where it really didn't belong. It's a fairly recent saying and whatever I was watching was set in a time period earlier than 1900
CBRetriever wrote: "I heard that "with all due respect" the otehr day in a TV show or movie where it really didn't belong. It's a fairly recent saying and whatever I was watching was set in a time period earlier than ..."That got me curious about the use of that phrase, so I looked it up in Google’s Ngram viewer. Like many phrases, it’s much older and more widely used than one would think.
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph...
I looked at some random samples, finding that in about half the cases from the 1800s it’s used the way we do today. Interesting.
that's very oddI just don't remember seeing/hearing it a lot until abut 10 years ago and then it seemed to be everywhere
There are lots of words and phrases that are in and out of fashion all the time. Just like clothes. I wish they left the 70s behind though.....You know what they say. Everything old is new again.
Jacqueline wrote: "There are lots of words and phrases that are in and out of fashion all the time. Just like clothes. I wish they left the 70s behind though.....You know what they say. Everything old is new again."
The Beatles are gear!
I used the word “skedaddle” the other day and my 15-year-old neighbor looked at me like I’d had a stroke. Her mom knew the word but had never used it, so an explanation ensued. (Poor kid.) Skedaddle is an old word that eventually morphed into “skidoo” which then became “23 skidoo” (which was a super-hot phrase for a while, the first slang to “go viral” as the kids say) and then that became “22 skidoo” and then we went back to skedaddle. Nowadays hardly anyone has heard “23 skidoo”, but it was the “cray-cray” or “word up” of its day. (Circa 1900-1925, for the record.)
Speaking of cray-cray, I was surprised when Jessica Jones S2 used it in their flashbacks, because I thought it was a relatively new term (meaning the last handful of years), but apparently it goes back to 2001.
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