The Diary of a Young Girl
discussion
just didn't find it as intresting or intriguing, but her writing structure was good and the idea of her story lasting till this day is remarkable.
Duane wrote: "@Tytti IIRC Finnish and Basque are the only two European languages for which they can't find an origin common with the other European languages (though I recall some mumblings about Hungarian maybe)"Basque is different but Finnish is related to Estonian, Sami languages, Karelian and several other small languages spoken mainly in Russia and Estonia (but those people were of course persecuted in Stalin's Purges so the languages are disappearing) and of course Hungarian.
Monty J wrote:Maybe they didn't. Bob Crane, the star, was found bludgeoned to death in a motel roomHmmm, interesting. Never thought of that! Scary stuff.
Yeah, younger people should know more because there is more information available and they have a better education than the older generations.
Anamika wrote: "Indo-europeans?"Petergiaquinta wrote: "That is interesting...I assume that's because you Finns are not Indo-Europeans, eh?"
Indo-European: a linguistic family tree. There are many languages in the world but most can be traced back to a small handful of proto-languages.
Here is one tree for Indo-European: https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/IE_Main2_...
Slavic languages and Pacific Oceanic languages came from a different family.
The Slavic languages are part of Indo-European. You have to click on the link to see the other half of the tree with Slavic, Persian and Sanskrit languages.
Tytti wrote: Well, first of all, we are not Scandinavians. Also I can often spot Finns based on our features, even among other fair-skinned people, there are differences.I have always felt the same way. You can easily spot some of them, even among Norwegians and Swedes. I would never tell a Finn though, in danger of coming off as a 'Scandiocentric' (yeah, just made that up).
Renee asked an interesting question regarding how we know how to pronounce words from dead languages (back when I was inquiring about her use of "cumhall"), and in the case of Irish/Gaelic it's because the languages never really died but were marginalized for centuries. As I continue to struggle through Ulysses this summer, one thing I am noticing for the first time is how much Joyce talks about the Irish language, who can speak it and who cannot, and it seems as if there is a push at the time to reintroduce it on a larger scale in Irish society. That is, if I can trust myself to understand what I am reading...How, though, do linguists know how to pronounce truly "dead" languages? I dunno.
But what's even a more interesting question to me is how do proto? paleo? linguists determine what a language like Indo-European was like, as there are no records to show it even existed, and all our knowledge of it comes from boiling down these other more recent languages to their commonalities. And so it's fascinating to see how they infer geography based on common words versus unique words for certain crops, animals, climate and land features. Based on this research, the most common theory is the Indo-Europeans were from central eastern Europe before their migrations, and thus commonalities for snow and grain and mountains (? I'm no proto-linguist, just a guy with some wide ranging interests), but no common word for "ocean" because they had not been there yet...so here's one thing I do know; those words for "an extremely large body of salty water" in these related languages are vastly different: okeanos, mer, samundra, sagar, havet, sea, etc. Each branch of the larger Indo-European tree has its own distinct type of word for the body of water, unlike common words for numbers, body parts, family relations, etc.
Paul Martin wrote: "I have always felt the same way. You can easily spot some of them, even among Norwegians and Swedes. I would never tell a Finn though, in danger of coming off as a 'Scandiocentric' (yeah, just made that up)."I wouldn't worry about that, even Norwegians and Swedes don't look the same. (I think it would be more of an insult to say we are Scandinavians. We are not, we have our own culture.) My dad once said that after the war he could recognize the Karelian evacuees from the locals without even hearing them talk. And we are talking about neighbouring areas in Eastern Finland.
And then, Peter, how much gets figured in for all the traveling and migrating the ancients did that we are beginning to discover and acknowledge happened?Offsides: I loved it when they found Viking runes (don't remember if they were Furthark or another breed) predating known colonization in a field in Minnesota!
Renee wrote: Offsides: I loved it when they found Viking runes (don't remember if they were Furthark or another breed) predating known colonization in a field in Minnesota! Haha yeah. Have they swapped Christopher Columbus with Leiv Eirikson in American schoolbooks yet?
You want your boy Leif saddled with all the grief we give Columbus these days in America???
No, and not likely to. Or mention that the Irish were here earlier.
Although they might if someone comes up with the bright idea that we should all be speaking Spanish since Spain did finance Chris. With the current nasty attitude here toward Spanish speaking immigrants and all . . .
Petergiaquinta wrote: "You want your boy Leif saddled with all the grief we give Columbus these days in America???"No, I want you to worship him - "In Leif we trust", "So help me Leif", etc.
Well, given that Columbus never set foot on the American continent . . .And this is fascinating! http://www.uhmc.sunysb.edu/surgery/am...
And definite story-fodder for later on.
Renee wrote: "Although they might if someone comes up with the bright idea that we should all be speaking Spanish since Spain did finance Chris. With the current nasty attitude here toward Spanish speaking immigrants and all..."We have to study Swedish because Sweden ruled Finland over 200 years ago. Or because everyone has to be ready to serve the minority of less than 5 %. Or because it's a "part of the Finnish identity", even if you never in your life actually use it or even learn properly. Or because Finns might act violently towards Swedish speaking people if they haven't been forced to study the language. Take your pick.
Tytti wrote:We have to study Swedish because Sweden ruled Finland over 200 years ago. Or because everyone has to be ready to serve the minority of less than 5 %. Or because it's a "part of the Finnish identity", even if you never in your life actually use it or even learn properly. Or because Finns might act violently towards Swedish speaking people if they haven't been forced to study the language. Take your pick. "There's a story there, too . . . probably several.
There's a story there, too . . . probably several."(Old) money, power and political blackmail, mainly, orchestrated by a party that used to give out medals named after this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Olo... Svecomans were such nice people...
So many stories, so little time . . . *so many cliches!*
Renee wrote: "So many stories, so little time . . . *so many cliches!*"
Yeah, and guess who gets called fascists and racists? Surely not those who just want their children the freedom to choose the languages they might need and are interested in? After all, studying one language isn't away from anything else. People can easily learn several languages. Except of course the people in the Swedish speaking Åland, they don't have a mandatory Finnish anymore. Who needs it in a country where it's only spoken by well over 90%?
Petergiaquinta wrote: "The Slavic languages are part of Indo-European. You have to click on the link to see the other half of the tree with Slavic, Persian and Sanskrit languages."Ah, thanks for the correction.
Tytti wrote: Yeah, and guess who gets called fascists and racists? Surely not those who just want their children the freedom to choose the languages they might need and are interested in? Well, does it do any harm? It's irritating, sure, but isn't it well documented that being exposed to several languages as a child increases the ability to learn other languages (among other things) later in life. It's the same with Nynorsk (New-Norwegian) over here. It's rather useless (or, completely useless compared Swedish), but the students that have to use in primary education just happen to have the best academic results in universities.
Paul Martin wrote: "Well, does it do any harm? It's irritating, sure, but isn't it well documented that being exposed to several languages as a child increases the ability to learn other languages (among other things) later in life."So you think it's much better to teach EVERYONE Swedish, instead of teaching some students French, others might choose Russian, some would study German, a few might take Spanish... For no other reason than to serve one bilingual minority? Especially when in the end hardly anyone will use it after they leave school because no one actually speaks Swedish where they live. Not until they need to take the course to graduate from a university.
Tytti wrote:Yeah, and guess who gets called fascists and racists?
Lessee... Let me guess - Anybody who argues with a leftist about anything, as soon as the leftist runs out of arguments? (if it had any to begin with)
HMMMM...... Is there a corollary to Godwin's Law, for screaming !!**RACIST**!! or !!**FASCIST**!! instead of "Nazi" or comaparing somebody to Hitler?
Further Study Is Needed...
(Oh - And - @Amanita, "Indo-European" refers to anyone who isn't an "Outdo-European")
<< Duane DIVES back under his rock >>
Excellent points, Tytti.If we were using good sense we'd be teaching/learning Arabic, Chinese . . .
And here in the U.S. we'd be starting on languages in kindergarten, across the board. I didn't get to take any (and only Spanish, German and French were offered) until high school and by then it was really too late for me to pick it up with any facility.
And they way we teach it is nearly unusable.
Duane wrote: "Lessee... Let me guess - Anybody who argues with a leftist about anything, as soon as the leftist runs out of arguments? (if it had any to begin with)"Actually SFP is closer to the right, as is the party of the PM.
Duane wrote: "Tytti wrote:Yeah, and guess who gets called fascists and racists?
Lessee... Let me guess - Anybody who argues with a leftist about anything, as soon as the leftist runs out of arguments? . . . "Indo-European" refers to anyone who isn't an "Outdo-European"..."
*makes a convoluted series of Carrollesque connections resulting in mental images of propagandist sorts wearing speedos sitting yoga style in a circle gazing at each other's navels, pointing at each other and yelling epithetically, "YOU INNIE BASTARD!" "YOU'RE A DIRTY OUTIE!"
and thwacks Duane on the back of the head with a rolled up newspaper*
Renee wrote: "And here in the U.S. we'd be starting on languages in kindergarten, across the board. I didn't get to take any (and only Spanish, German and French were offered) until high school"Kindergarten might be too early for most. We usually start English (or some other language) when we are 9 and some have the chance to take another language when the kids are 11. Then comes Swedish when we are 13, I took German the next year (and now they are mixed up in my head because the languages are so similar) and French when I was 16, Russian at a university. I know some German and French, not much Russian and I won't use Swedish, though I know it quite well.
Renee wrote: "Excellent points, Tytti.If we were using good sense we'd be teaching/learning Arabic, Chinese . . . "
Second that one! All empires should teach their children the languages of whoever is going to overrun them when they crumble... It's a basic survival skill.
So you think it's much better to teach EVERYONE Swedish, instead of teaching some students French, others might choose Russian, some would study German, a few might take Spanish... For no other reason than to serve one bilingual minority? Especially when in the end hardly anyone will use it after they leave school because no one actually speaks Swedish where they live. Not until they need to take the course to graduate from a university. Considering the roots of Swedish in Finland, I don't think there is anything wrong with making Finns learn Swedish, no.
It has to be within certain limits of course. The amount of Swedish shouldn't lead to the exclusion of other languages, such as the ones you mention.
I'm not really that familiar with the situation in Finland. What I challenge is the idea that having one completely standardized language is somehow better for this or that country. If you removed Swedish from the curriculum there would be more time for Russian or German, yes, but would this happen? Do countries with one standardized language such as France or England produce students with better language skills than countries with several languages? Not to my knowledge - it's rather the other way around.
Paul Martin wrote: "Considering the roots of Swedish in Finland, I don't think there is anything wrong with making Finns learn Swedish, no."Most Finns think there is, 2/3 of the population. It's not a part of our identity, and has never been. Finns were forced to learn it before because there were no schools in Finnish, eventhough it was the language of a large majority.
wrote: "The amount of Swedish shouldn't lead to the exclusion of other languages, such as the ones you mention."
It does just that, because learning three languages is too much for most people.
wrote: "What I challenge is the idea that having one completely standardized language is somehow better for this or that country."
What?
wrote: "If you removed Swedish from the curriculum there would be more time for Russian or German, yes, but would this happen? "
If a person has to choose a language to study, then yes, they study some language. No one has explained yet, why it has to be Swedish. Not even Finnish is mandatory in all of Finland.
wrote: "Do countries with one standardized language such as France or England produce students with better language skills than countries with several languages?"
Are you talking about Finnish as "one standardized language"? It's not "standardized", it's the language of the majority. I hear Russian and many other languages daily, I hardly ever hear Swedish.
Most Finns think there is, 2/3 of the population. It's not a part of our identity, and has never been. Then the party that suggests the removal of Swedish is bound to get the votes of the seemingly overwhelming majority of Finns who feel violated by having to learn Swedish. I'll look out for that.
I hardly never hear Swedish.
But then you don't live in Åland, do you? :)
If a person has to choose a language to study, then yes, they study some language.
And that's a big if. My arguments have their roots in how things have been going here in Norway and I'm gradually realizing that they might not make any sense to you. I agree that, ideally, students should have a lot of freedom in choosing which language to learn, and which ones not to learn. 40 years ago, everyone over here had to learn German or French. Later, based on the same arguments that you're using, this was undone and people can now choose from a variety of languages - pretty much anything you want, as long as it's a recognized language. This has, contrary to what was believed beforehand, led to decreased language skills, even when it comes to Norwegian. English is the only language we speak a bit better now than 40 years ago. The result is an entire generation who don't understand phrases such as Vis-à-vis and Bildungsroman, and that knowledge hasn't been replaced with anything substantial - despite the fact that you can now freely learn Chinese or Russian in school.
Maybe the same thing could work better out for Finland, if it's organized and handled better than it was here. If you ever get to that point, you only have to look a bit west to find lots of material of how to not to go about it.
Renee wrote: "...thwacks Duane on the back of the head with a rolled up newspaper"WAIDAMINNIT you... Waddyathink this is, A Zen monastery??
Paul Martin wrote: "Then the party that suggests the removal of Swedish is bound to get the votes of the seemingly overwhelming majority of Finns who feel violated by having to learn Swedish."Well, there is only one party that supports it, the one with the most nationalist and populist views. Though, unlike for the Swedish speaking population, the language issue isn't the most important thing to most Finns. But I wouldn't be surprised if they will get even more votes in the next elections. Then the foreign press can report about rising hostility towards immigrants when in reality the only reason to vote might be the mandatory Swedish...
40 years ago, everyone over here had to learn German or French. Later, based on the same arguments that you're using, this was undone and people can now choose from a variety of languages - pretty much anything you want, as long as it's a recognized language.
Well no one is learning or at least using Swedish anyway. The reason for that you can see from the map here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish-... I live in the white area. Light blue represents municipalities where at least 6 % OR 3000 speaks Swedish. 3000 in a bigger town isn't much... So in the end Finns speak only English because most won't even study a third foreign languge. THIRD, because everyone already has to study two languages, including the Sami people and immigrants who speak some other language as a mother tongue but go to school in Finnish. Even we who are good at languages, still struggle to learn THREE. In most schools the choices would be English, Swedish, German and French because there are no teachers for other languages. Russian would be important, though. At the moment Swedish is mandatory for border officials at the Russian border, hardly anyone speaks Russian.
But then you don't live in Åland, do you? :)
Luckily not. Finnish is all but forbidden there, post boxes with Finnish names get blown up, you are not allowed to speak Finnish at work etc. And they don't have mandatory Finnish but still demand that we study Swedish.
Duane wrote: "Renee wrote: "...thwacks Duane on the back of the head with a rolled up newspaper"WAIDAMINNIT you... Waddyathink this is, A Zen monastery??"
No, but it is an enlightening conversation!
Makes me wonder if the only reason we never hear about the disharmony in Finland and the surrounding areas, and I — and I suspect most Americans — have never heard Åland mentioned is because the US isn't making a bid for any oil there . . .
It's probably just because nobody can keep track of all the disharmonies, that it didn't get on the radar screen... I think if you stuck a map of Europe on the wall and threw a dart at it it would be guaranteed to stick somewhere that there's some sort of ethnic disturbance that's still festering somehow. America , the supposed "Melting Pot", supposedly had a chance to supposedly make a supposed fresh start in that regard, but all hope of that is rapidly vanishing with the "Multiculturalism" that's being crammed down our throats by the Utopian idealists who as always are going to reap the *exact* opposite of what they're sowing...(AND I'LL GET you for that NEWSPApER AttAcK!! What arE you, IRISH or something???)
Renee wrote: "have never heard Åland mentioned is because the US isn't making a bid for any oil there..."There are less than 30,000 people living in Åland. Nobody cares about them. Except when the British and French blew up a fortress there during the Crimean War. Militarily it's somewhat important an area.
It's a beautiful place.
Paul Martin wrote: "It's a beautiful place."It's a place where I can't buy property or own business, where it's not allowed to have signs in Swedish and Finnish but Swedish, English and German (and maybe Finnish) is fine. I generally don't want to feel like a (hated) second class citizen in my own native country, so I doubt if I ever go there.
Anamika wrote: "Um..just in case you think I've ignored a comment,I'm not an Indo-European."Well, then your native language isn't English.
Shauna wrote: "I think the reason people find any criticism of this diary offensive is because it was never written to be read by anyone other than the writer. The fact that is has survived is wonderful but it is..."Shauna - I agree wholeheartedly.
Today is the 70 yr anniversary of the capture of Anne Frank and the people hiding with her.
Well, *somebody* was going on earlier about how Anne Frank *had* expected it to be published... I couldn't quite finger out how that was possible, my bandwidth for following all forks of the thread being limited, but...
Duane wrote: "Well, *somebody* was going on earlier about how Anne Frank *had* expected it to be published... I couldn't quite finger out how that was possible, my bandwidth for following all forks of the threa..."Keeping your finger in too many . . . pies?
Duane wrote: "Well, *somebody* was going on earlier about how Anne Frank *had* expected it to be published... I couldn't quite finger out how that was possible, my bandwidth for following all forks of the threa..."She(?) told how they (the Dutch?) had said in the radio that after the war there would be interest to collect diaries etc. written during that time. I find it very believable. I also seem to remember reading somewhere that she edited the earlier parts because of that. Are you sure it wasn't mentioned in the diary itself? It's been years since I read it.
hey, it's been *decades* since *I* read it... but yeah, that's what I read earlier (on the previous thread before the quantum transition?)I'd love for that to be the case, though, just to deepen my already bottomless cynicism...
Duane wrote: "I'd love for that to be the case, though, just to deepen my already bottomless cynicism..."
There's a joke involving Pole dancing just begging to be made. . .
http://atelier26bookstore.moonfruit.c...Here is a book written from the perspective of a child of Holocaust survivors. Liz Rosner's father was at Buchenwald. Two of her other books deal with similar issues.
The effects of the Jewish Holocaust don't stop with one generation. Walking among us today are children of Ann Frank's peers who have inherited the emotional consequences of living in the death camps.
Writing her diary, Ann Frank lived on the brink of the death camps. She did not know the unimaginable horror awaiting her young eyes, and eventually her innocent young flesh. Strike a match and burn a clump of your hair and get a sense of the smell she would have learned to live with.
Anne Frank didn't make it, but for those who survived, the trauma is baked into their psyche. On the outside, the effect is invisible but permanent. Infiltrates every aspect of their lives, contaminating the next generation. And the next.
The trans-generational effect of the Holocaust is similar to what slavery has done in the black community where violence and family disintegration are the result of centuries of an entire race being treated like farm animals--whipped, chained, used as breeding stock and sold away from family.
When you read Ann's words, try to be aware of the bigger picture.
Renee wrote: "Duane wrote: "I'd love for that to be the case, though, just to deepen my already bottomless cynicism..."
There's a joke involving Pole dancing just begging to be made. . ."
You mean, like, "did you hear the one about the two Poles dancing with..."
(Go ahead - I DARE you)
My alleged brain was running more along the lines of the virtues of bottomless cynicism vs. topless cynicism and the pole dancing that might be featured at a topless and bottomless cynicism club. :D
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Wasn't it found that ALL of our mitochondrial DNA can be traced back to a Mongolian woman?"
yeah, commonly known as "Eve" in the scientific community...
they think she may have produced the final mutation which enabled spoken language
@Tytti IIRC Finnish and Basque are the only two European languages for which they can't find an origin common with the other European languages (though I recall some mumblings about Hungarian maybe)
Oh and by the way Renee QUIT complaining that your head is full of trivia... You're just paying attention when nobody else is, is all (IN CASE you hadn't noticed)