The Diary of a Young Girl
discussion
just didn't find it as intresting or intriguing, but her writing structure was good and the idea of her story lasting till this day is remarkable.
I'm afraid we have reached rock *Bot*tom.Or Bottom in the Shakespearean sense? (not safe to assume anything)
Next stop: LOLcats . . .
:D
Goodness me how dare Anne Frank not write an absolutely riveting diary full of amazing characters living their wonderful lives. I mean she was only doing a small thing and hiding in fear of her life from the Nazis. The nerve of her...
Laura wrote: "Monty J wrote: "S.M. wrote: "Monty J, yes because personal insults being hurled at the OP is the OP's fault."People who can dish it out but can't take a little kidding need to do some growing up...."
Laura, I agree. It'll take another 80 years or more for me to be as funny.
Shauna wrote: "I think the reason people find any criticism of this diary offensive is because it was never written to be read by anyone other than the writer. The fact that is has survived is wonderful but it is..."Maybe someone else already commented on that but just a touch of fact-correction in case no one has.
Anne Frank actually hoped her journal would be published. there was an announcement on Dutch Radio saying that after the war, it would be great to collect diaries and other keepsakes of the war time to help make later generations understand what it was like.
Anne Frank was already writing a diary and dreamt of being a journalist so when she heard that she decided to "touch it up" and better her style to make it suitable for future publication. Of course she did not know her own future and could not have imagined the powerful book her diary came to be... But she still wrote it with publication/sharing in mind.
Also, to the criticism of this book. Of course you are all entitled to your opinions and encouraged to express them. However I find some of them simply disrespectful! This book is not the work of a professional writer. It is the diary of a 12 yo girl living something no 12yo should ever live. It is her testimony of life as a Jew in the Netherlands during WW2. Of course you can find it not "entertaining enough" or not manage to relate to it. But in this case none of that matter because you are talking about real people living incredibly awful things who ended up for the vast majority dead in a concentration camp! It is disrespectful to say it is not a good book because it is such an important one and because it is a diary! Would you go up to a 12yo girl and say "hey, I read your diary and seriously your life is boring and not relate-able and all of your friends, family and acquaintances are soooo dull. And your writing style is kind of a joke, I don't care that you're 12 and that this is your diary, I feel like I'm entitled to better quality." ?! I certainly hope not! And I hope you see why people get upset when criticizing Anne Frank's journal.
Also: it is normal you cannot relate! You are not a 12yo jew during ww2, you have probably never lived in fear every day for years, you have probably not have to live hidden and silent in a very small space with lots of people for a long time. This diary is not supposed to be relatable or suspenseful, it is supposed to make you realize what millions of people went through for years and to see that from the pov of a 12yo innocent little girl should be enough to move you! Especially since this is real!
Bravo, Alice.Have some cake. :-)
Alice wrote: "Shauna wrote: "I think the reason people find any criticism of this diary offensive is because it was never written to be read by anyone other than the writer. The fact that is has survived is wond..."Thank you for bringing some practical discussion back to this thread that actually focuses on the book. I agree that the purpose of this book is not really to "entertain" if anything you should feel a bit horrified after reading this book. I found the abrupt ending of the book rather heartbreaking. She wrote in her diary that morning and then BAM she was captured and that was the end of her story. Also reading this many years after the fact when she's thinking about what she's going to do after the war was pretty tragic knowing that her story isn't going to have a happy ending. I guess my point is that a book doesn't have to have you completely enthralled and a happy ending in order for it to poignant and "good".
Alice wrote: "Of course you can find it not "entertaining enough" ..."If you think about what the diary is, the content, the circumstances, it raises the question of what kind of person WOULD find it entertaining.
There are passages that are entertaining, which is testament to the human spirit, that even in terrible circumstances we can find humor and some lightness, but overall, no, it does not "entertain" us.
Engrossing, interesting, compelling, but no, not entertaining.
Alice wrote: This diary is not supposed to be relatable or suspenseful, it is supposed to make you realize what millions of people went through for years and to see that from the pov of a 12yo innocent little girl should be enough to move you!Thanks Alice, that is exactly the point!
Thank you all :) Renee wrote: "Alice wrote: "Of course you can find it not "entertaining enough" ..."
If you think about what the diary is, the content, the circumstances, it raises the question of what kind of person WOULD fin..."
Indeed, you are right. English is not my first language and I sometimes use the wrong word for what I mean to say :) To me the book was definitely engrossing, interesting and compelling (even more so because I was 12 myself when I first read the book). Entertaining was not the right word :)
I think we all understood what you meant, Alice. You were eloquent. What I referred to was the complaint that's been made by some that they weren't entertained by the book. Entertainment, as you pointed out so beautifully, is not the point of Anne Frank's poignant diary.
First of all, I consider this book a historical document. The thing is... I like history and reading about history, so I don't know how I'd feel otherwise. Without a doubt this is an important part of our history, but it's also one that we've been hammered with for decades. While it's important to get the grasp of it (no matter your age), not everyone enjoys learning with the same tools.I live in Berlin. As you can imagine, there's extensive literature and museums and tour guides to concentration camps and plaques on the street and you name it, about WWII. There's a strong "never forget to never repeat" spirit about this. When I first arrived, I went with some friends from the Sprachschule to one of these museums. I got bored to death in there. And this is coming from a woman who enjoyed reading this journal of Anne Frank and several other documents about WWII and the holocaust, including history books. That museum just wasn't my cup of tea, but another museum (about the same) was, and I spent hours in there.
I believe that it's not wrong to find this or that boring and prefer other "tools" or art forms, even, to absorb the important messages of history. Of course, that's a big maybe. I have no clue if that's the case of the OP. I'm just saying that I wouldn't find it offensive if someone found this journal boring, even if I disagree.
Laura wrote: "First of all, I consider this book a historical document. The thing is... I like history and reading about history, so I don't know how I'd feel otherwise. Without a doubt this is an important part..."Completely off-topic but: you're so lucky to live in Berlin! I've only been there once, for about a week, but absolutely loved it!
Back on topic: I agree with you, not everyone enjoys the same things and/or learns the same way. And, as I said before, people are completely entitled to not particularly enjoy/appreciate this book, it's just all about how you phrase it (but that has already been said 1000 times in this thread).
One last thing on-topic-ish: "we've been hammered with for decades": maybe, but it seems like people still forget or do not understand... Look at the result of the recent European Elections! Far right extremists political parties have risen everywhere! Not surprisingly, we're repeating the same pattern: economic crisis => people look for the easiest scapegoat => racism and xenopophobia arises and becomes "ok" in the mind of many => extremist party wins election => ? Luckily I think the world has changed a ton since WW2 and it won't come to another war, but it is frightening how, no matter how much you try to make people see and understand the mistakes of the past, some will always ignore it. And even scarier is that the forgetting is happening while many of the people who lived through the war are still alive! (ok, in the end it was more off-topic than I orginally thought, sorry about that).
Alice wrote: "One last thing on-topic-ish: "we've been hammered with for decades": maybe, but it seems like people still forget or do not understand... Look at the result of the recent European Elections! Far right extremists political parties have risen everywhere!"But at the same time, not many people even know what Stalin did to "his" minorities, and of course to some Russians, too. But being a member of a minority was a good reason to get executed. There are thousands of Finns with the execution date sometime during the years of 1937-38, others were sent to forced labour camps to die. (We are talking about a small minority in the first place, tens of thousands maybe.) They have been already forgotten, except by us.
Oh, and Alice, that thing you wrote, I agree with that and it has been said many times. The problem of course was that some people weren't interested in that kind of talk but wouldn't elaborate their opinion, either.
Alice wrote: "One last thing on-topic-ish: "we've been hammered with for decades": maybe, but it seems like people still forget or do not understand... Look at the result of the recent European Elections! Far right extremists political parties have risen everywhere!..."That is actually a scary thought, and I wonder if the "hammering" was either too much or not loud enough, or both at the same time. A friend of mine, who lives in Sweeden, was just telling me how strong racism had resurfaced, to the point that -according to her- the political party which promotes this behavior is close to power and has the support of the youth. She told me how today's youth are not informed or lost interest in that.
I wonder if there was an overload of WWII books, movies, lectures, etc., to the point that young people now roll their eyes with "ach, more of the same...". Or perhaps, because there was an overload, everyone suddenly grew tired of the issue and stopped showing any information at all, so young people now aren't as informed as previous generations.
When I got bored at the museum, honestly I was sick of the same images that I had seen so many times. It also happened to me when someone gave me the movie about the Boy with Striped Pajamas. I was bored, honestly. I remember, years ago, not being bored with Schindler's List and I remember even more years ago devouring history books about the same subject. So... could it be that mankind overdid it and caused the opposite effect in young people than what was the aim? I have no clue, of course I can't answer this. But I wonder.
And it's a VERY scary thought. I don't see much of that because... This is planet Berlin! But some news from other places are unsettling. Perhaps the solution is to try to find other ways and new "tools".
Anamika wrote: "Well you've got a big essay there."I know it's not exactly the topic, but it's kind of the topic...
Tytti wrote: "Alice wrote: "One last thing on-topic-ish: "we've been hammered with for decades": maybe, but it seems like people still forget or do not understand... Look at the result of the recent European Ele..."My history teacher actually made a point of teaching us about Stalin and all the horrid things he did. She thought it incredibly stupid to always insist solely on Hitler when more people died under Stalin than under Hitler... But you are right, not enough people know...
Laura wrote: "Alice wrote: "One last thing on-topic-ish: "we've been hammered with for decades": maybe, but it seems like people still forget or do not understand... Look at the result of the recent European Ele..." I think the problem was that we were hammered always in the same way: by being shown what happened instead of showing us it could pretty darn easily happen again. I think what really made a huge deal of my class realise that was watching the film "The Wave" http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_w... that is based on a true story and shows how easily we can be brainwashed and act stupidly when in a group. Another problem imo is the lack of education of a part of the population. In my experience, all of the racist people I have known came from a lower socio-economic class (lower middle class and under) who were badly educated on economy and therefore blamed problems like unemployment and economic crisis on immigrants (when it is completely false). Luckily in my country no extremist party is even remotely close to popular, but I was so scared when I saw the results in France, Greek etc.
I didn't watch the movie (The Wave), but I read the reports on the experiment and other minor experiments done. Heavy.Like I said before, not everyone likes the same kind of "media" to read, learn or receive a message. I know this journal is not meant as entertainment. But perhaps we should have/find/make more entertaining methods of teaching, adapted to the different people out there. Or perhaps more active, like the experiment? I don't know.
What I mean is... If someone gets bored with the journal of Anne Frank, they won't get the message anyway. In those cases, they may need to read/watch/hear something else, to assimilate that same knowledge about this important topic. And I think that's no disrespect to history or to the memory of Anne Frank. Her journal will still be read and appreciated by all the others (including me) who like to read it.
Laura wrote: "I didn't watch the movie (The Wave), but I read the reports on the experiment and other minor experiments done. Heavy.Like I said before, not everyone likes the same kind of "media" to read, lear..."
I agree with you 100% :)
Laura wrote: "Like I said before, not everyone likes the same kind of "media" to read, learn or receive a message. I know this journal is not meant as entertainment. But perhaps we should have/find/make more entertaining methods of teaching, adapted to the different people out there. Or perhaps more active, like the experiment? I don't know...."While I agree on some levels, falling into the chasm of believing everything has to entertain in order for learning to take place scares the hell out of me.
It releases us from the responsibility of developing mental discipline. It raises (or lowers) expectations that we be fed information in an entertaining way rather than presenting the facts. It opens the door for the kind of infotainment that now passes for news and op-ed.
It makes it easy for factions and fanatics exercise their agendas.
It makes us complaisant.
It makes us lazy.
It makes us vulnerable to the past.
Renee wrote: "While I agree on some levels, falling into the chasm of believing everything has to entertain in order for learning to take place scares the hell out of me. ..."I disagree. Entertain is not the same as amuse. I'm not saying "let's make a sit-com about the Nazis". But entertain, yes. There are trends now even in scientific literature and courses of entertaining writing online, because the goal to pass the message. And I'm talking about scientific journals, so presenting the facts is pretty much a high priority. But you also want more people to read, understand and enjoy what they're reading, and pass it around.
Times evolve and now we have so many amazing and terrifying ways and means of communication, that, if we're not careful, we'll end up sending the message to a handful of "select people", who will not be enough to make a difference.
Okay, I can go with that definition of entertainment, although I do believe that in order to avoid the sending of messages to that handful of select people the rest of us must wean ourselves away from so much "easier to swallow."But that's not likely to happen, I guess.
Renee wrote: "falling into the chasm of believing everything has to entertain in order for learning to take place scares the hell out of me."While it doesn't really scare me (yet), I don't think entertaining should be a big priority when it comes to teaching/learning. Besides, we are all entertained in a different ways. I liked solving math problems and learning/reading about history, it came from within. I would have been annoyed if someone tried to entertain me with trivial things while I was doing that. If people are too childish and don't want to learn unless it's "pleasant", then that's their problem. I wonder how they will manage in a work place as adults.
Laura wrote: "I'm not saying "let's make a sit-com about the Nazis". ..."My brain is a terrible, convoluted and cluttered place . . .
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/22...
Tytti wrote: "If people are too childish and don't want to learn unless it's "pleasant", then that's their problem."This illustrates perfectly my point. For some people, it's more important to remain up on their cloud of auto-assumed intellectual elitism than to spread a message worth spreading.
Renee wrote: "Laura wrote: "I'm not saying "let's make a sit-com about the Nazis". ..."My brain is a terrible, convoluted and cluttered place . . .
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/22......"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Laura wrote: "This illustrates perfectly my point. For some people, it's more important to remain up on their cloud of auto-assumed intellectual elitism than to spread a message worth spreading."So some people have to be spoonfed information because they are too lazy to do their own learning? Thanks, I'll pass. I am not their mother.
Tytti wrote: "So some people have to be spoonfed information because they are too lazy to do their own learning? Thanks, I'll pass. I am not their mother. "It's funny how you seem to assume that someone expected you to do anything.
Laura wrote: "It's funny how you seem to assume that someone expected you to do anything."But you think that others are eager to do that? I doubt it.
Tytti wrote: "But you think that others are eager to do that? I doubt it."Of course you do.
Laura wrote: "Tytti wrote: "But you think that others are eager to do that? I doubt it."Of course you do."
Maybe because I have been around teachers and heard what they have had to say. At least when the students are (almost) adults it's expected that they are responsible for themselves and don't need handholding.
You just seem to expect that those "others" are willing and go the extra mile to make things easier for all the lazy people. I don't see why they would have to, that's not their job.
Renee wrote: "Laura wrote: "I'm not saying "let's make a sit-com about the Nazis". ..."My brain is a terrible, convoluted and cluttered place . . .
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/22......"
You have a BRAIN?? What are you doing on THIS thread???
It's still not cluttered enough though... what about **this*...
I guess they must *still* not be showing it on Laura's planet...
Duane wrote: ". . . You have a BRAIN?? . . ."Allegedly :D
Renee wrote:Allegedly :D
Dang... No wonder you think entertainment is frivolous. Maybe there's hope for this place!!
I was thinking, though... (I know, don't fry my other brain cell), TDOAF (uh-oh... now I did it) probably *is* entertaining for 12-year-old girls, or *could* be, and maybe from that they could learn not to spawn totalitarian police states when they grow up? (Ever see the pictures of all the cute German girls in their dirndl(s) Sieg-Heiling and swooning when the Fuehrer drove by?)
Or something... Stuff like that.
I.e... more generally... maybe even if entertainment *is* mandatory in the 15-second sound bite era, it might still be possible to use it for bait to lure the video generation into contact with actual *content* of some sort?
(oh, never mind... Anybody wanna buy a parenthetical expression?)
Esther wrote: "I think people should be encouraged to think for themselves and deal with complex issues rather than constantly accomodating everything around them and what they consider pleasant and entertaining."I would rather read a book written by an expert in his/her field than a book written better someone who is better in entertaining people. Not many people can do both. And even if some can, you should also look into books with a different point-of-view. But then again, some people think that Da Vinci Code is real history, I guess it's entertaining enough...
I have also noticed that I much prefer documentaries made by the BBC to those made for the American public which treat viewers like they are children.
That is the good thing about having a world with different people. While some stay on their pedestal of self-importance, feeling culturally and intellectually superior than the rest of poor mortals, others will care about spreading around a very needed education that adjusts to different kinds of people. The beauty of diversity.
Are we talking about some mentally handicapped people? Because I can understand that they might need help in understanding some issues. But I don't understand why normal adults have to be pampered. And of course it's "someone else" who has to do that, we can't expect that the general public has any resbonsibility for themselves or their knowledge... There are already school books for children if they somehow missed the education at school. I am beginning to understand why the Finnish school system is usually quite high in the rankings. It's not that we are doing anything special but at least it teaches children to be resbonsible for their own learning, at least it used to do that. That carries over to adulthood."Hi, I'd like to read some good book about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It has to be funny and not too long. I don't want to read anything boring, either, I just want to be entertained. Preferably YA."
HAHAHA Hey, you should write entertainment!
Renee wrote: "Laura wrote: "I'm not saying "let's make a sit-com about the Nazis". ..."My brain is a terrible, convoluted and cluttered place . . .
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/22......"
Tytti wrote: "Are we talking about some mentally handicapped people? Because I can understand that they might need help in understanding some issues. But I don't understand why normal adults have to be pampered...."
I guess I neither agree nor disagree with any of you. I think a huge thing to consider in this debate is where you come from because depending on that, the school system is incredibly different. Now I don't know the German education system very well but I assume it is similar to mine (Belgian). If it is so it is a very strict and "sterile" environment where things have been taught the same way for decades, not taking into account that the world and its population has changed. Whereas I was an exchange student in the US as a senior and there, education relies a lot more on "entertainment": movies shown in class, we had to invent a tabletop game to analyse one of the themes in "The Great Gatsby" in English, we played "Doctor House" in pathophysiology,...
I think that in the US, the amount of importance given to entertainment coupled with the huge importance of sports and art is nearly detrimental. However in Belgium education is so forbidding (not sure of this word, it was given to me by google translate :P) that many students simply do not care or try to learn and remember knowledge...
Now another thing to remember is that the less educated people are, the more likely they are to be racist, close minded and to commit crimes. I do not remember who it is that said "open schools and you will close prisons" but I 100% agree. Therefore, a vast part of the population not being educated enough is a problem concerning everyone!
I think my opinion on this as a college student myself is that, while it is very important for young adults to take responsibility and initiative in their learning and to have self-control and internal motivation/determination, it is also important to acknowledge how the changes in the world affected our learning process.
What I mean by that is that my generation grew up with the internet, we can know the answer to most of our questions in a few seconds thanks to technology. We never had to go to the library, look up books on the subjects and than read to locate the relevant information, we have an instant answer. Therefore we like to absorb information quickly and to go from one subject to another at a click of the mouth or the touch of our finger. To us, heaps of details and learning everything by heart seems pointless since we are able to access said information at any time. Of course it is NOT pointless and as a young adult I understand that and am able to open myself up for new knowledge even if it is given to me in the less entertaining, less interesting way possible. But what about children and teens? If the school system does not evolve with them, so many will be completely unengaged and will either fail or not truly memorize/understand/apply anything. And I do not think it means something about them. My little brother for example: he is fascinated in science and will be eating up every scientific knowledge presented to him. however he cannot stomach history despite it being so darn important! I think it is a teacher's duty not to entertain but to spike interest in their students so that they assimilate the basic knowledge that is needed in every individual. I don't think everyone is/should be a scholar or an intellectual and I do not think that not being one is a bad thing. It is lucky for us that there are so many different types of people on this earth which complete and complement each other and I do not think that a scholar is more valuable than an artist, a sportsman or a factory worker. We are all simply different, but we all need to be educated for the wellness of society. Which is why I think that there is most definitely a need to make school (until you are 18, not talking about adults here)interesting for all types of people by diversifying the way we teach.
Alice wrote: "I guess I neither agree nor disagree with any of you. I think a huge thing to consider in this debate is where you come from because depending on that, the school system is incredibly different..."That. I fully agree. When I say "more entertaining ways of spreading the message", this is what I mean. Adaptation. I don't think that someone who can't stomach a history book or a certain documentary has to stay ignorant and assume that they're "mentally handicapped". And by learning I don't mean memorizing dates for a test.
You said it; it is the business of educators to spike interest in what they're teaching. I never meant (I repeat) to say that everyone should start playing games and making historical sit-coms. In fact, I said the opposite.
"I do not think that a scholar is more valuable than an artist, a sportsman or a factory worker. We are all simply different, but we all need to be educated for the wellness of society. Which is why I think that there is most definitely a need to make school [...] interesting for all types of people by diversifying the way we teach."
Exactly!
Esther wrote: "Now that the discussion is back on track it's you who can't seem to stop being an ass."Very respectful of you. Thank you.
"I see my knavery. This is to make an ass of me, to fright me, if I can." ~Nick Bottom;-)
"I do begin to perceive that I am made an ass." -Falstaff:D
Alice wrote: "I do not think that a scholar is more valuable than an artist, a sportsman or a factory worker"I'm not talking about scholars, I am talking about normal people, adults who have already finished school. If they don't want to know more about the world then that's their choice. It's not other people's responsibility anymore to try to get them to learn something. If it's so difficult to read a history book, then they can stay ignorant, it's their decision. You don't even have to buy it, libraries are full of books for free.
The problem with that scenario, Tytti, is that here in the U.S., we still let them vote.
Renee wrote: "The problem with that scenario, Tytti, is that here in the U.S., we still let them vote."I guess that explains the election of younger Bush, twice, or actually just once, I suppose...
One Finnish exchange student in USA was asked that what do we do in schools when we don't have sports teams, clubs or dances... Study..? She also had to explain many times what the government shutdown meant. ("Why don't they just print more money?")
Perzactly, Tytti!If there was a better understanding of basic math that first go-round probably never would have happened.
Think of all the crap that might have been avoided . . .
This is my problem with your argument, Tytti: Knowledge of important cultural/historical matters should not be seen as a privilege, to be enjoyed only by the fortunate ones who had better formation and can read (and enjoy) history books. For two reasons:1) Like Alice said, nobody is worth more than the other. Nobody deserves to learn more than someone else, based on the method that may suit them better to learn.
2) Like Renee said, everyone votes. Everyone decides who the leaders of our countries are. The ignorants, the racists, the [you-name-it]-phobics, everyone, not just the intellectual elite.
That's why I agree so much with Alice's final statement, which I quoted, that the whole population needs to be educated for the good of the whole society. Adapting and finding teaching methods which spike interest in important things doesn't corrupt or diminish the knowledge in any way.
So, going back to this journal, if someone gets bored with it, the solution should never be to just state that "they can stay ignorant about the Holocaust". Nobody should. And, honestly, I do find it arrogant, which may not be your intention.
In the U.S., we have allowed the variations and derivatives of the word "intellect" to be twisted into something semi-synonymous with "degenerate" and other epithets. I can remember that starting even when I was in school. When we moved from northern California, where intelligence, thinking, intuiting and reasoning were encouraged in class, to the south it hit me in the face. I learned in a hurry to keep my thoughts to myself and figure out what my teachers wanted regurgitated on tests and papers. And to be good at sports. Anything else just caused me trouble.
Being "smart" was a very bad thing.
Look at the first Bush election. One of the diatribes against Kerry was that he was an "intellectual."
If Thomas Jefferson were on the ballot today . . . HEY! Now there's an idea for a story . . . :D
Renee wrote: "Look at the first Bush election. One of the diatribes against Kerry was that he was an "intellectual.""Bush and intellectual in the same line... Ay.
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People who can dish it out but can't take a little kidding need to do some growing up."
Sorry, S.M., but this one is funnier! :D