Stephen King Fans discussion
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The Shining
2nd Round of King Books
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The Shining - Book 3
Great catch, Femmy!
Femmy wrote: "There's a nod to 'salem's Lot in Chapter 17 :-)[spoilers removed]"
Thats the problem Femmy, as we get older we see things differently. We loose our creative innocence. As kids when we see a stick we saw guns swords magical wands and the like as adults we only see the stick I wish I never grew up, Sai King and J.K Rowling help me stay an immature 58 year old kid.
I agree, mrbrooks. That's why I admire adults who are able to maintain their creativity and can think up new ways to use ordinary objects.
I stayed up until one in the morning to finish this book! Although thanks to Joey I know (view spoiler), I was still at the edge of my seat for the last hundred of pages, cringing every time (view spoiler). What a gripping read. Thank heavens for (view spoiler).So, one question. How did the hotel get so evil? Any theories? Any hints in the book that I missed?
Femmy wrote: "I stayed up until one in the morning to finish this book! Although thanks to Joey I know [spoilers removed], I was still at the edge of my seat for the last hundred of pages, cringing every time [s..."I don't think King really tells us or even hints. Some place just are evil. It's such a scary concept, because with no rhyme or reason to it, there is also no predicting or preventing.
Femmy wrote: "There's a nod to 'salem's Lot in Chapter 17 :-)[spoilers removed]"
Good catch! I completely missed that one.
I think myself the hotel is evil because so many bad things have happened in it and some many bad people have stayed there, it's like they leave some sort of trace behind them.
Ruthbie wrote: "I think myself the hotel is evil because so many bad things have happened in it and some many bad people have stayed there, it's like they leave some sort of trace behind them."I’d actually go a bit further than that and say many of the bad things happened because the hotel itself is evil. (view spoiler)
I don't believe that buildings can be evil but I do believe that they can become evil due to its experiences.
I wish there had been more of an explanation for the evilness of the hotel, especially since it had a level of sentience. Toward the end, (view spoiler).
Also, I’ve only seen the movie once and years ago, but I totally misremembered the “all work and no play” pages as happening in the book rather than in the movie. I kept waiting for that to show up. So fickle, our memories.
Has anyone noticed that there is a big reference to Stovington in the first few chapters. Jack was a teacher at a prestigious Prep school, and if I remember rightly The alternate for the disease control center in the Stand was in Stovington.
Linda wrote: "I don't believe that buildings can be evil but I do believe that they can become evil due to its experiences."I think there are at least a few places in King's work where the building itself is evil. As Summer says, the building has a level of sentience. Depending on your theory of evil, if the building is sentient that it can go over to the dark side. which the hotel has. I think the movie goes a little further in suggesting that Jack himself is part of that sentience, and has been around a very long time.
If I remember rightly from the movie it all started in the 20's or 30's. I can't remember if it is alluded that they did satanic worship or just debauched parties and deaths that caused the evil to find a home in the Hotel.
Ok if they are involved it is both plus LOL
Ben wrote: "mrbooks wrote: "If I remember rightly from the movie it all started in the 20's or 30's. I can't remember if it is alluded that they did satanic worship or just debauched parties and deaths that ca..."I don't really feel like that's true. I think alcoholism definitely is a way it can use to break someone to do its bidding, but (view spoiler)
Ultimately I have to say I am slightly disappointed in how it all ends. (view spoiler)
I agree with Tim that the alcoholism wasn't the key. A weakness was necessary and those two happened to have a weakness for alcohol. There was no real alcohol at the hotel over the winter so becoming inebriated/drunk was just one step in both men's process of allowing themselves to do the horrible things the hotel wanted them to do. I think any a bad or quick temper, or even low self esteem could have been manipulated by the hotel.
mrbooks wrote: "If I remember rightly from the movie it all started in the 20's or 30's. I can't remember if it is alluded that they did satanic worship or just debauched parties and deaths that caused the evil to..."Didn’t the movie reference an Indian burial ground as the culprit? I think that was part of the explanation (which didn’t really hold a lot of water, but *handwave storytelling*.)
Ben wrote: "Summer wrote: "mrbooks wrote: "If I remember rightly from the movie it all started in the 20's or 30's. I can't remember if it is alluded that they did satanic worship or just debauched parties and..."Great analysis Ben.
Ben wrote: "mrbooks wrote: "If I remember rightly from the movie it all started in the 20's or 30's. I can't remember if it is alluded that they did satanic worship or just debauched parties and deaths that ca..."The thing is There was no alcohol when Jack was there It was his imagination that allowed them to get to him and work on him. Yes he is a recovering alcoholic but with nothing to drink, they couldn't get him in that way. But unlike the last caretaker Jack was an educated man with a vivid imagination and a serious anger problem.
Somehow I always felt that there WAS liquor. The hotel provided it.
Nick wrote: "Somehow I always felt that there WAS liquor. The hotel provided it."That was my impression, too. Wendy could smell it in his breath.
You forget though with Halloran (view spoiler)I don't believe the alcohol is the deciding factor in how the hotel can operate. Yes, the former caretaker had the same problem, but I felt like that was more or less a connection for the two characters to link them. Not because of the hotel itself, but because of the roles they would play. I think something to remember here is we actually have no real idea why the former caretaker did what he did. Was it because of the hotel? Was he just a violent drunk? Or did the hotel take his nature and nudge it in the right direction?
Another factor for Jack I feel we must consider (view spoiler)
I always imagined there was real alcohol provided by the hotel too. Not just from Jack appearing drunk, but even the smell was present.
I don't however, think that Jack had a shine. This wasn't about Jack, it was all about Danny. If Jack had a shine stronger, the Hotel wouldn't need Danny at all once it had possession of Jack. The hotel even goes so far as to tell Jack it's Danny it wants. Remember, all three members of the family see things. This isn't because all three have a shine, it's because Danny's shine is so great it's allowing things that could never be done before. Usually only those with the shine could see its manifestations, but the Hotel was able to draw on Danny's shine to become more powerful and become more present, more real. Its why it wanted Danny, and tried everything it could to get him.
I noticed that the Shining movie has come to netflix...I think I will watch it tonight and compare it to my notes I took about the book when I read it towards the end of last year.
Monique wrote: "Nancy u r in for a treat it is fantastic and amazing I couldn’t put it down like this book I’m reading now rose madder I haven’t put it down I started at 730pm yesterday evening it’s fantastic too ..."I read it in 1980 so this is my second time around. I started last night. I forgot all about the foreshadowing!
Nancy I finished rose madder it was awesome amazing now I’m reading different seasons trying to finish it today at work and listening to gunslinger first time reading dark tower series so
I agree that what happened really had nothing to do with Jack. The Hotel wanted Danny and simply used Jack as a tool. Jack was damaged (aren't we all) and used his weakness to get what he wanted. I think any addiction would have been an edge to the power of the Hotel, but both caretakers being alcoholics was an easy crack to wedge.Wasn't part of Jack's anger towards the end because he realized it was Danny and not him the Hotel really wanted? A jealousy of sorts.
Ben wrote: "And Jack didn't have a vivid imagination, he had the "Shining" the same as his Son. But Jack's "Shining" was stronger than his son's. Jack's "Shining" was hidden away in his subconscious and Hallorann was unable to detect any trace of it.Remember, Jack saw the hedge-animals move as well as the woman in Room 217 just like his son. Only those with "The Shining" can see these things...."
I’m with Tim and Kandice; that’s not how I read it at all. There really wasn’t any indication in the text that Jack could shine. It seems more like the hotel harnessed the strength of Danny’s power to project hallucinations for Jack.
Kandice wrote: “Wasn’t part of Jack’s anger towards the end because he realized it was Danny and not him the Hotel really wanted? A jealousy of sorts.”
Yeah, that’s where the story kind of breaks down for me. It sounds like the hotel needs to hijack other people’s shine in order to keep existing, which makes me wonder where the evil and its sentience came from in the first place. In any large hotel there’s going to be sex and drugs and shady deals so I’m not sure what made the Overlook so special that this evil manifested. Though, to be fair, King isn’t always great with the internal logic of his stories so a handwave may be the best explanation here.
Summer wrote: "Yeah, that’s where the story kind of breaks down for me. It sounds like the hotel needs to hijack other people’s shine in order to keep existing, which makes me wonder where the evil and its sentience came from in the first place. In any large hotel there’s going to be sex and drugs and shady deals so I’m not sure what made the Overlook so special that this evil manifested. Though, to be fair, King isn’t always great with the internal logic of his stories so a handwave may be the best explanation here. ..."I think the Hotel is capable of a LOT on it's own, but having a physical being at it's beck and call would make it's evil more... I don't know. Less psychological and more physical/real. Something like that.
Good pull, Ben, thanks for sharing that
Ben wrote: "The thing is There was no alcohol when Jack was there It was his imagination that allowed them to get to him and work on him. Yes he is a recovering alcoholic but with nothing to drink, they couldn..."Yes you are right Ben it did use his weakness against him, and I know he had the shining but he also had a vivid imagination. With the shining and his imagination the hotel found him easy to work on. Yes Jacks was stronger then Danny's but then again Jack was an adult and he has reached his full potential Danny is really only just starting to work with his shining.
Michele wrote: "I noticed that the Shining movie has come to netflix...I think I will watch it tonight and compare it to my notes I took about the book when I read it towards the end of last year."You found The Shining on Netflix??? I just checked earlier this week and again now when I saw your comment and I don't see it on there...
I don't use Netflix, I have it on DVD so I can watch it when ever I like LOL. I also have the Original of Carrie, The Stand, Pet Semetary, It, Misery, Christine, and the Green Mile.
Nicole wrote: "You found The Shining on Netflix??? I just checked earlier this week and again now when I saw your comment and I don't see it on there... "I see The Shining on my Netflix. I live in Indonesia and Michele is in Finland. Maybe it's a geographical restriction thing.
Ben wrote: "Summer wrote: "I’m with Tim and Kandice; that’s not how I read it at all. There really wasn’t any indication in the text that Jack could shine. It seems more like the hotel harnessed the strength o..."When I read that line (as if Jack Torrance had something – something that he was hiding.) I felt that Jack had some other psychic power not necessarily the shining, maybe something that was closer to pure evil. It's not like shining is all there is. On some unknown scale, it may be one of the lesser psychic powers.
Ben wrote: "Nick wrote: "When I read that line (as if Jack Torrance had something – something that he was hiding.) I felt that Jack had some other psychic power not necessarily the shining, maybe something tha..."Maybe, but I like to think that the shining is just one power on a broad continuum of psychic powers and King would explore many different ones of them in his works.
My big issue with assuming Jack not only has the shine, but a shine stronger than Danny's, is the entire story breaks down to me. It's made very clear the hotel wants Danny for his shine, and everyone else is fairly inconsequential. If Jack had a shine stronger than Danny, it would have wanted him for more than killing Danny and giving him to the hotel. Jack may have had something in his mind that gave Halloran pause, but I just can't see it being the Shine and have the story work.
Tim; I agree with you 100%. Jack had no shining; never did and never will. To think that he had is to read something into the story that was never there to begin with.
I agree with you Tim.
I agree too Tim. I believe it was The Overlook blocking Halloran's attempt to go in to Jack's mind. The evil used Jack to try and trap Danny there in the hotel to become more powerful.This theme is also continued in Dr Sleep as the ghosts from the Overlook and the former hotel owner Horace continue to pursue Danny and his ability. Then Rose the Hat and The True Knot capture kids who can shine so they can consume their power. Danny protects a little girl as he empathises with her plight.
Jack was a mere pawn.
Nick wrote: "Ben wrote: "Summer wrote: "I’m with Tim and Kandice; that’s not how I read it at all. There really wasn’t any indication in the text that Jack could shine. It seems more like the hotel harnessed th..."That’s exactly how I read it as well. As if he has some evil deep inside him.
Danny could have inherited the shine from a grandparent as well not necessarily a parent. If Jack had the shine and it was strong, why didn’t he ever he know what people where thinking, why didn’t he have any kind of premonitions?
The hotel is evil. Evil resides in Jack. It’s easy for the hotel to manipulate Jack because of the evil that already lurks deep inside him
Tim wrote: "My big issue with assuming Jack not only has the shine, but a shine stronger than Danny's, is the entire story breaks down to me. It's made very clear the hotel wants Danny for his shine, and every..."Yep.
I think Jack was hiding a lot: his desire to drink again, his resentment toward Al and the school faculty, his anger with Wendy, his frustration with Danny, his thoughts that he’d be better off without them. I think on some level he was hiding those things from himself because those were some of the emotions that pushed him toward drinking. For me, that line had a very mundane explanation. And as Tim said, if the hotel wanted power and Jack had the strongest shine, it wouldn’t have thrown him away the way it did. Now, I’m not trying to convince you you’re wrong. If that interpretation works for you and makes the book more layered and nuanced, that’s great. People interpret things differently all the time. :)
Kenneth wrote: "Tim; I agree with you 100%. Jack had no shining; never did and never will. To think that he had is to read something into the story that was never there to begin with."It doesn't bother me that others have their own interpretation/opinion for anything that Stephen King writes, because it's all fiction anyway, not reality. But when you say that I am "reading something into the story", then the same "reading something into the story" can be said about your opinion as well (right back at you)....since both our beliefs are based on what we conclude without actual "proof". Neither of us can produce concrete evidence to match our opinions. Because your own conclusion was never there to begin with either.
I based my own personal "opinion" on an obvious link between anyone who "shines" and whatever is haunting the Overlook.
Everything Danny experiences, Jack experiences as well.
1.) Danny goes to room 217 and leaves terrified after being choked by a she-ghost. And when Jack goes to investigate the same room, Danny tells his mother - "Don't worry , mom, He'll be alright because he doesn't shine, so she can't hurt him."
But Jack, in fact, does eventually see the same she-ghost. And I interpreted this as Jack's "Shining".
2.) They both have almost the same experience with the Hedge-Animals, they both have the same visions of murder, and they both sleepwalk. Both share moments of daydreaming/narcolepsy type states. Danny repeatedly blacks out to rendezvous with "Tony", and Jack similarly blacks out and has visions of his abusive father
3.) Both shared the same experience with the odd clock in the Ballroom, and both encounters the frightening Dog-Man named Roger
4.) Hollorann mentioned that only people who "shine" can see what is unseen by those who don't possess "The Shining".
If Jack "shines", he may not be aware of it. Even Hollarann stated that some people who have the "shine" have lived their whole lives without ever knowing it. They just get lucky sometimes and win at the horse-track, or get the correct numbers on a lottery ticket; but they never associate it with anything other than happenstance. And I happen to believe Jack "Shined" the very same way.
It's all how read and interpret what you read. No one has to agree, because only Stephen King knows the answer.
While Halloran does say there are people who shine and don't even know it, I think the key factor there is that he's talking about people with 'a little bit'. So sure, they spend there whole lives just thinking now and again they have correct gut feelings which end up true. I can't believe someone who has a shine stronger than Danny would go their life not knowing something was up and everything was normal. If Danny is able to know something is different about him at 5, how could someone with something stronger than that which is hinted at being the 'strongest encountered' not know?As for Jack seeing things, the interpretation of that kind of hinges on how the Hotel itself works. Do those with the shine see it solely because that what you NEED to see, or does the Hotel feed off the energy from the shine to be able to manifest? If you need the shine to be able to see underneath what we can naturally perceive to the hotels evil, then of course Jack must have some kind of shine. But if it feeds off the energy of those that can shine? Well, all bets are off aren't they?
Personally, I view it as the later. The hotel wants Danny because it has never seen an individual with such a shine. Normally only those with the shine can see anything unnatural because those specific people bring such little energy that that's all the hotel can manage. But with Danny, it has an energy smorgasbord and can gather enough strength to project itself so well anyone can be affected. To me, that's why Halloran thinks its only 'pictures' which can't do harm, because normally there isn't enough shine energy for the hotel to actually do anything but project pictures to those with the ability. But it's also why Halloran isn't so sure, because who really knows what it can do with a shine such as Danny's inside?
Now for what Halloran was unable to see inside Jack's head, I agree with Summer's analyses. I believe that Jack was hiding numerous things from himself, such as moving the timer forward on poor George, and it created a space in his head so locked that it was hidden from everyone and everything, except for the Overlook.
Tim wrote: "My big issue with assuming Jack not only has the shine, but a shine stronger than Danny's, is the entire story breaks down to me. It's made very clear the hotel wants Danny for his shine, and every..."Because Jack is Hiding his Shine, Like Ben I think he does have the Shine, the hotel has the same problem Halloran has in identifying it. Also Danny's is still pure it isn't evil or good it just is. I will amend what I said earlier, Jack also has a touch of telekinesis as the hotel was feeding of his powers it used a touch of it to make the rire hose to fall out of it's holder to terrify Danny.
I don't believe Jack had the Shine at all. If that was the case why were they so eager to get Danny.
Remember Halloran said it was like jack was hiding something. The hotel was so eager to get Danny because his shine was untainted pure, there is nothing stronger then something that is pure. You also have to remember Danny is only 5, he hasn't really grown into his shine yet he is still weak so to speak. Think about Jacks life and how his father used to beat him. He doesn't want to invoke his fathers rage anymore then he has to so he has learned to completely hide his shine. Unfortunately his hiding of his shine is what drove him to alcohol and the alcohol was used liberally, because it was it weakened his ability to shine.
Tim wrote: "While Halloran does say there are people who shine and don't even know it, I think the key factor there is that he's talking about people with 'a little bit'. So sure, they spend there whole lives just thinking now and again they have correct gut feelings which end up true ..."So which is it?
Did the novel state that "those with the shine see things solely because that's what you NEED to see"? Or does the novel state that the Hotel "feeds off the energy from the shine to be able to manifest"?
I don't recall either interpretation being written, which is why I love different opinions. I think King maybe did this on purpose.
Danny never knew what he had was called "The Shining" until he was given a brief schooling by Halloran. Originally, Danny thought it was "Tony" who tipped him off on everything (like finding things that went missing around the house). So he didn't know anyhing was different about himself at an early age, because his parents called "Tony" an "imaginary friend". And they convinced him that having an imaginary friend was normal for kids his age who had no friends. He later learned (in Dr. Sleep) that Tony was actually something his mind created whenever his "shine" tried to tell him something...which is why Tony went away (and later adopted from his subconscious by Abra Stone).
There was no hint, clue or Chapter in this novel that made me think this hotel was drawing "shine" from Danny in order to make poltergeists manifest for Jack's eyes to behold. But I can see how this might be interpreted.
Great debate!!
Stephen King Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Burnt Offerings (other topics)Hidden Bodies (other topics)
You (other topics)
Now about King books towards which I am pretty cold, don't have much enthusiasm for fan favorites The Shining, The Stand and Christine. And The Gunslinger is the only King book I hated, it is objectively a bad book in my opinion. Anyway that's the beauty of a writer with a back catalogue as large as King's, there is a scope for lot of contrasting opinions even among those who agree that he is one of the best writers working today.
Just another stray observation about The Shining, I don't remember how well King depicted Jack's struggle with alcoholism but I am currently reading James Lee Burke's Dave Robicheaux series, and the raw poignancy with which the need for booze is depicted in that series is probably unmatched in genre fiction.