Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? Showing 401-450 of 12,463

[Travis]

Personally, I see atheism, not as a belief system, but a lack of belief myself.
and I don't have any epiphany story to go with it, just a gradual fading of any real need/comfort/interest/etc in religion.
They didn't seem to actually have the answers and really didn't seem to be doing their job.

I'm pretty content to look at the world and if this is all there is, I'm happy with that. Needing more seems greedy to me.

[Bunnie]

travis--on the contrary i believe in nature and the laws of physics-the mysteries of living things is extremely interesting-how do you think man found out about things--he was curious about his daily world and i don't find that greedy--where would we be without people like Leeuwenhoek-who devised the first primitive microscope and discovered "wee beasties"or Walter Reed (yellow fever) Einstein --E=Mc2 --don't talk to me about a lack of belief--all religion does that i can see is promote fear of sin and going to hell.

[Travis]

Bunnie, take a breath.
I'm not swiping at atheism, I'm expressing my version of it.
I'm not talking not needing belief, imagination or things like that. I'm saying that atheism can't get lumped in with belief systems, because it's all about not believing in something ( ie that god person)

I see the world and can accept it the way it is, am actually pretty freaking impressed with it, without having to say 'This was all made by an invisible man in the sky.'

I've always found that the more science I learn the more impressed I am with the world and the more it baffles me that people think they religion to explain stuff.

[Bunnie]

travis--ok --i see what you mean--but my daughter insists on telling me that athesism is a belief --i don't care what you call it--it sure gets testy doesn't it whenever people try to discuss religious beliefs--friends have been lost over the subject--enemys made --and for what? none of us really know do we and does it matter in the long run? everyone lives their lives according to some inner rudder i think--maybe guided by parents or church or self--will we ever know?see how easy it is to fight over this? BUT YOU KNOW--WE ARE TALKING AREN'T WE?

[Noran]

Bunnie-just5 getting to sleep now-nice long am visit with anthony. They are letting sneak my virgina-5 year old up at 7pm for a short visit. I would like to take our discussion to emails between us, so we are not missing each other on the net.

Crisis of faith? Just working hard for it. Priest told me that those that question he felt had stronger belief-for they worked on it and for it. It just was not following the leader. I truly want complete faith-i have experienced, personal proof twice in my life
and I find comfort in traditions offered by the church.
It is just I feel bad I cannot offer myself completely-take that leap of faith that Indiana Jones does in the film. Logic and science has me know in is impossible, yet it/he/God/the karma guy has shown me he is there for me in my life-so it is also logical with these experiences that he does exist. Just because we cannot prove he is there, does not mean in 50-100 year we may be able to? It is surely a bittersweet conflict -for it has given me great joys, great comforts, and also moments of hard inner exploration. I would give up on the journey-for I learn with each step I take. Prayer is like a mantra for others. I just start talking, as to myself-wishing well for patients and families i care for. Give thanks for the good moments in my life and reflect on the shift of hope I did well and how I could strive to do better the next time. So without the Hey God, at the beginning-it just would be if I was reflecting to myself. I do ask for patience/strength/guidance--so this too could be a personal pep talk to yourself.

I do believe in the Holy Ghost--not spirit. I hate is when the church changed it, so that it would not scare kids. It it nothing more, then reminding myself to be a better person and be more open to things-so I am?!?

Now praying to Saints-I read an article recently saying is praying to them-like praying to other gods? That one has me really thinking and exploring that one. Saint Anthony got me through nursing school-if you had asked my mother. He is the saint for lost causes. I di pray to him earnestly, when it seemed Vir was going to try to be born way too soon. You offer him something-a bribe my mother called it, and if your prayer was answered- you had to come through too. Now i have never heard what happens to those that welch on saints. Virginia Dianna Antonia Warot=Antonia for the Saint. My brother--too named for the same Saint, and is my little one's Godfather. So this I am going to be reading on and evaluating. Learning, changing, growing and adapting.

Just as these conversations here have me thinking wondering, eyes open to new thoughts and ideas by others.

I will tell the Brother Anthony story here later his week-for the humor of it. My father feeling trapped by a nun into naming his first born after a Saint he never heard of, for a crazy reason. My mother delighted. I know I will do it as a writing on my profile and link it here for anyone interested.

I saw a nun today selling baked goods for their charity. They are a French order from Chicago. She looked like she walked out of a 1900's photograph-the old habit and lovely cross about her neck. I felt the biggest smiling of the day, after a hard ER shift cross my face. We chatted for a moment, then I made a donation. That feeling and smile and warmth I do not get from science and logic-though they are amazing--that is why I continue the struggle-for those amazing moments of joy pure for me. Thank you all for helping me figure out a piece of the puzzle and a little more inner peace for myself. :)


BUNNIE Have you ever watched the new DR. Who?!? Please let me know!!! Travis-I will email you latter a funny story about my Catholic hospital/scifi/and what i was not allowed to do!

Well I turn this thread back to the orginial programming it was intended for. Nap-brother-vir home-surfing the net late nite. thank you all. GREAT Discussions here!!!

[Noran]

Religion or science--I pick Time Lord! Seriously I do!

[Travis]

No problems Bunnie.
I've had this discussion with other people, they equate atheism with religion.
I just don't see not believing in something as a belief system.

Noran: Unfortunately, Time Lord has not yet been declared a religion. You'll have to settle for Jedi.

Though, I've got my bow tie ready. Just in case.

[cerebus]

Bunnie wrote: "travis--ok --i see what you mean--but my daughter insists on telling me that athesism is a belief..."

Hi Bunnie, the best reply I have heard to the claim that atheism is a belief is say it's a belief (or a religion) in the same way not collecting stamps is a hobby. When asked what her hobbies are (assuming she's not a stamp collector!) would your daughter say that not collecting stamps is one of them? Also assuming she is Christian, you could point out then that her lack of belief in Islam or Hinduism could also be considered a 'belief' or a religion.
I know these may seem like trivial points to some, but considering that atheists are listed as the least trusted minority in polls in the US, I think it's important to clarify what it actually is.
The most common thing I have seen people unfamiliar with atheism stuggle with is "so, what *are* your beliefs then? What *do* you believe in?", but to me those are the wrong questions, and are an attempt to set religion and atheism on the same footing. For me it is important to make people realise that it is not that I believe in something different or competing, it is that there is a belief that those of faith have that I do no have. It's not like your favourite sports team showing up to play my favourite sports team, it's like your favourite sports team showing up to find there's nobody to play against.

[cerebus]

Noran wrote: "That feeling and smile and warmth I do not get from science and logic ..."

Hi Noran, that's fair enough, but I just want to point out I do get that feeling from science, from just boggling at how incredible it can be, from learning something I didn't know before, and as I've recently discovered, from explaining scientific concepts to my kids and seeing their reactions :)

[Travis]

When people ask me what I do believe in, I tend to point to the nearest window and say 'That stuff out there.'

Also, good news, it looks like the Tea party may have passed atheists as the least trusted group, according to a recent survey.
Go Tea Party! you can do it! I'll be more than happy to be in second place.

[cerebus]

Travis wrote: "Also, good news, it looks like the Tea party may have passed atheists as the least trusted group, according to a recent survey."
Really? That's excellent news! It's hard to tell from the opposite side of the world, but it was really starting to look like they were gaining in popularity all the time....

[Noran]

Now many you say that atheism is not belief system as such--but you are a group of like minds. As now persons are declaring themselves asexual. You could be abeliefs for non religion. There are activist groups that for religious stuff out of government and schools. Now is this a subgroup or what? I am Catholic, and personally pro-life, but I am not keep anyone from clinics, or planting thousands of crosses every year for every abortion in our region. That is just cruel to anyone that had to make that choice!!! I had to learn, that I do not have issues with the Jewish religion, but with Israeli politics. It is hard to see them separate in a country with religion hand to hand with the government. Yes, I belief in the division of church and state, just sometimes where the line is drawn the sand gets moved about over time. The Elephant party concerns me so now, with their so pro-religion stances. Mormon, Christian shoveled down your throat. Those are NOT the issues we need to address as a nation right now! I wish an atheist would run, who was not a a PC rant to get God off the coin and such-but just focus on the issues. I just do not want his/her platform to be God out of government, but how we are going to solve government issues. Then I fine later in his/term to re-do coins and such-phased out over time not to cost more, and other things. I hate going for the best of bad choices for president and senate seats. God hate gays and no marriage for them. To heck with that--equal rights under the law. God cannot hate love and caring of a relationship of 2 people-who want to dedicate themselves to each other. Heck let us get rid of marriage, and all be civil unions then. I can get behind that.

I guess many of us God people look at it as a belief in nothing-for it helps us to understand it-from our point of view. So, I guess is is each person's personal definition of "belief" as a term-that leads to this.

Now for the most disliked group--it is not the individuals of their views many I feel have issues with. It is the political/action groups that get take the christ out of christmas, or God bless america out of the pledge in school. Heck the removal of the pledge completely gives me issues-personally. Hey, I admit I am open minded, but I like my traditions. I do not like fearing of the holidays now wishing someone a Merry Christmas and getting the evil eye. I know happy holidays is PC, but again with my comfort found in traditions-I just like say Merry Christmas.

So, that is the question I leave you with--what do you do over the holiday with your kids? Also, do you do tooth fairy and easter bunny and santa with them?

[Noran]

Travis, I just added Time lord as a third and best choice of the 3 for me. I really now want you to post a pic of you in your bow tie. A fez would be so great--PLEASE?!?!?!?

[cerebus]

Noran wrote: "So, that is the question I leave you with--what do you do over the holiday with your kids? Also, do you do tooth fairy and easter bunny and santa with them? "
Yup, we do all of that with our kids....kids enjoy that kind of stuff too much not to, and to me it would be the same as reading them a story at night but prefacing it every time with "Now none of this is true!"....in my opinion kids need to have their imaginations stretched. What we will do though is when they start coming to us with questions about the tooth fairy etc (and it's already happened with one), I'll get them to think logically about it, and if after that they still believe then we stick with if for a bit longer, if they say they don't believe, I won't keep trying to force them to.

As for saying things like Merry Chrismas, that doesn't bother me in the least, I say it too...Happy Holidays seems to be mainly a US thing, you don't hear it at all here (or at least I haven't!)....

[cerebus]

Noran wrote: "Now many you say that atheism is not belief system as such--but you are a group of like minds. "
Actually in the past this has been one of the problems with atheism when it comes to trying to combat the rise of some of the extremes of religion in politics that you mention....the fact is atheists are not a group of like minds at all, so up until recently there hasn't really been any kind of 'collection' of atheists. It is only as an attempt to present an alternative to some of the extremes we are seeing these days that anything like this as sprung up. Again it comes back to atheism not being a belief (for me anyway)...a lack of belief in the past hasn't been something that atheists see as a reason to form a group of any sort. Going back to the stamp collecting analogy, it makes sense for stamp collectors to form groups to discuss their hobby, but it doesn't make sense for the non-stamp collectors to form groups to talk about their lack of stamp collecting....

[Travis]

Noran: would love to get a fez, but I think my wife would crack and change the locks on the house.

Unfortunately, there is no 'United Atheists federation'. Not really sure what we'd do if there was one. Can you have rules for not believing in stuff?
Would we go door to door, passing out the good message that if you convert you get to sleep in on sundays?

With my kids, we did the Tooth Fairy, Santa etc, but we have now hit the stage where they are skeptical.

It's funny, when you are a kid, you get told about all these things that later you are told it's time to stop believing in them, but then the same people that told you the Easter Bunny wasn't real, go ' but angels and the man in the sky that made everything...? That stuff we meant.'

[Bunnie]

Noran wrote: "Bunnie-just5 getting to sleep now-nice long am visit with anthony. They are letting sneak my virgina-5 year old up at 7pm for a short visit. I would like to take our discussion to emails between ..."

Noran wrote: "Bunnie-just5 getting to sleep now-nice long am visit with anthony. They are letting sneak my virgina-5 year old up at 7pm for a short visit. I would like to take our discussion to emails between ..."

[Bunnie]

noran, i am not quite sure what to say-iknow you would not want to think the way that i do--it doesn't bother me that i don't believe in a heaven or an ofterlife but rather our bodies (which are chemicals) will return to the earth after death. you say you find comfort in the traditions of the church--and that you cannot offer youself completely to your belief--not being a believer i would not know what to do or say to help you with that-i guess that is a battle you will have to fight on our own-what question is actually holding you back on total commitment? i suppose it would be interesting to discuss differing views. i already have lost a neighbor friend over this issue--she got the idea that i was looking for GOD-she even gave me her miisters name and phone number so that i could call him and learn more about the bible--that ended that one. she no longer speaks to me when she found out i was not looking.give me you e-mail name and i'll give you mine.

[Bunnie]

travis--update! now my youngest daughter tells me that aethesim is an absence of belief--who really cares what you call it?

[Travis]

I care, and your daughter is right. Not believing in something is not a belief system.
'Atheism = just another belief system' is a false equivelency. It's the kind of BS as the people who give you the 'creatitionism is equal to evolution' speech.
It's taking two different things and trying to present them as being equal, but opposite, sides of the same idea.
They aren't.

At the same time, not believing in one thing, doesn't mean you have no belief in anything. It's not a total abescence of belief. It's a specific lack of belief.
Most christians are atheists when it comes to Zues, Thor, Shiva, unicorns, aliens and the Flying Spaghetti monster.

[Noran]

I like meat sauce with my flying spaghetti monster. =the roman Alfredo sect doesn't like our branch at all, just DON'T geT me started about the butter faction.

[C.J.]

Michael wrote: "i think Southpark answers this question remarkably well."

I think South Park answers a lot of tough questions really well, with humour. I wouldn't want to live in a world without humour.

[Bunnie]

noran-travis--i'm beginning to think we are all crazy--there are so many differing beliefs it is a wonder any of us can discuss anything at all.CJ just said it--Humour is the way to go--forget all the religions that preach hell and damnation.

[Heathermomo]

OK I've not read the comments but looking at the question the one is compulsory and the other is optional!
You can choose not to believe in science but whether or not you believe in gravity your feet will still stick to the ground, whether you believe in chemistry acid will still burn you.

So whatever my personal opinions, a world without science is a world without order, one where up is up today but might be sideways tomorrow. A world without religion is one where you make up your own rules according to your personal morality.

So yes, please given the choice I'll take science please.

[Manona1992]

Heather wrote: "I know this may seem a bit weird, but I believe that science and religion go have in hand. In my mind, science explains religion and they together form societal networks. It is when you get extremi..."
i totally agree with you religion and science are allies not enemies and every thing science discover is a proof that good exist

[Travis]

How does science prove god exists?
I keep hearing this statement, but if that was true, this thread would be half a page long.

I think what people call proof is actually faith.

[Nora]

We already tried a world with no science (Dark Ages) and it didn't go so well, so I'd go with a world without religion.
Although I don't think that would be good either. All extremes are bad. The best thing is to find a place in the middle.

[Jeff]

Maja wrote: "Destructo wrote: "Jeff wrote: "People like to think the human adaptation of our conscious understanding mind is a good thing, but we should really just behave as our senses/feelings dictate (as chi..."

I'm saying we are animals, no matter how much we want or try to believe otherwise.

[Jeff]

Patti wrote: "Jeff wrote: "Instead of allowing individuals with weak genes to die, we waste our time saving that individual life, even though it negatively affects every other individual. The real reason we do t..."

I kind of am saying that yes. If you wanna spend your very limited time of conscious existence sustaining the life of your weakest competitors, go for it, but doing so only puts you in a weaker position compared to ALL your competitors (the rest of humanity). You don't see presidents, ceo's of international corporations, superstar athletes (the individual homo sapiens who have the easiest access to the most opportunities) helping individuals with maladaptive genetic profiles except in front of a TV camera for their own personal benefit (that being the masses can then perceive them as "nice, caring, humane" people). Tough to explain the point I'm trying to make. Just realize that every opportunity that someone else takes advantage of is an opportunity that YOU no longer CAN take advantage of. I highly recommend you check out the link i posted in my original comment/rant, does a better job of explaining what I'm talking about.

[cerebus]

Manona1992 wrote: "i totally agree with you religion and science are allies not enemies and every thing science discover is a proof that good exist"

As Travis has also requested, can you please let us know how you feel that science is in any way useful in proving that god exists? I have seen absolutely no indication of this in any of the science reading I have done, in the science study that I have done, or anywhere else for that matter.
As I have said earlier in this thread science and religion are very much opposites, one requiring repeatable evidence and an ability to change in response to this evidence, the other requires faith alone, and an ability to totally ignore evidence contrary to that faith.
They are in no way allies. That does not make them enemies btw, it just means they are totally separate and have no connection with each other.

[cerebus]

Jeff wrote: "If you wanna spend your very limited time of conscious existence sustaining the life of your weakest competitors, go for it, but doing so only puts you in a weaker position compared to ALL your competitors (the rest of humanity)"
There is some interesting study being done on the evolutionary benefits of altruism, to the extent that it is making some people nervous because it could possibly mean that we are not altruistic because it is a noble thing (although we may inherently feel that) but because we have evolved that way and it does actually in some way convey a personal benefit.

Jeff wrote: "You don't see presidents, ceo's of international corporations, superstar athletes (the individual homo sapiens who have the easiest access to the most opportunities) helping individuals with maladaptive genetic profiles except in front of a TV camera for their own personal benefit..."
Again there is interesting evidence to suggest that a larger percentage of people in upper management positions have at least some psychopathic traits, and that in fact these are beneficial in these positions. Obviously the traits don't include the more violent ones you would tend to associate with psychopaths (or at least, not that we are aware of!), but do include the lack of empathy and the willingness to do whatever needs to be done to achieve their goals.

[Laura]

Both are essential to living a full life. Science and religion are both searching for the truth.Sometimes they conflict and occasionally they support each other. In either situation, they spur each other on to further exploration.

[Bunnie]

Jeff wrote: "Maja wrote: "Destructo wrote: "Jeff wrote: "People like to think the human adaptation of our conscious understanding mind is a good thing, but we should really just behave as our senses/feelings di..."

Jeff wrote: "Maja wrote: "Destructo wrote: "Jeff wrote: "People like to think the human adaptation of our conscious understanding mind is a good thing, but we should really just behave as our senses/feelings di..."

Jeff wrote: "Maja wrote: "Destructo wrote: "Jeff wrote: "People like to think the human adaptation of our conscious understanding mind is a good thing, but we should really just behave as our senses/feelings di..."

Jeff wrote: "Maja wrote: "Destructo wrote: "Jeff wrote: "People like to think the human adaptation of our conscious understanding mind is a good thing, but we should really just behave as our senses/feelings di..."

Noran wrote: "Now many you say that atheism is not belief system as such--but you are a group of like minds. As now persons are declaring themselves asexual. You could be abeliefs for non religion. There are ..."

Manona1992 wrote: "Heather wrote: "I know this may seem a bit weird, but I believe that science and religion go have in hand. In my mind, science explains religion and they together form societal networks. It is when..."

[Travis]

Science is religion with actual proof.
and less singing.

[Rafael]

I think the idea of organized religions will eventually fade and people will just have their own individual spirituality.

[Bunnie]

Ed wrote: "Kind of weird question because in end, Science can become a religion, but religion can't be a science. So I feel like I don't get your question."

[cerebus]

Laura wrote: "Both are essential to living a full life. Science and religion are both searching for the truth.Sometimes they conflict and occasionally they support each other. In either situation, they spur each..."

How would you say they are both essential? I am able to live my life without religion, which means that religion is not essential.

I would also disagree that religion is a search for the truth. There is no search involved, you are told a 'truth' and expected to believe that and to reject any other 'truth' which disagrees with that. I would say religion is a search for comfort.

[cerebus]

Ed wrote: "Kind of weird question because in end, Science can become a religion, but religion can't be a science. So I feel like I don't get your question."

If science becomes a religion it stops being science, so science and religion are still totally separate things. 'Science as a religion' is a common claim by those of faith, but it is incorrect for reasons I have pointed out before (see message 469 for example).

[cerebus]

Rafael wrote: "I think the idea of organized religions will eventually fade and people will just have their own individual spirituality."

Some people. Some of us will still be atheists.

[cerebus]

Travis wrote: "Science is religion with actual proof.
and less singing."
And without the need for blind faith. So, just as science that becomes religion stops being science, religion that becomes science stops being religion.

[Bunnie]

Ed--to me science is the search for answers to questions, religion does not allow questioning-teach a child and you will always have them--what bothers me about some religions is the absolute dectatorship of the leaders --take a Warren Jeffs--those people still think of him as a prophet-it doesn't seem to occur to them that he is also a pediphile. all those men have a harem --they kick out the young guys--too much competition-then there are the priests who are pediphiles --did God give them permission to do the things they do? and some crazy religions like the holy rollers that speak in tongues--what language is that? who understands any of it.if people want to believe in that little be it for me to say they can't but i don't have to.

[Bunnie]

Cerebus wrote: "Manona1992 wrote: "i totally agree with you religion and science are allies not enemies and every thing science discover is a proof that good exist"

As Travis has also requested, can you please le..."

[Bunnie]

science is not religion--the facts are always being altered according to new findings which is the way it should be. i have a friend that thinks science is not valid because they keep changing the facts--that is the way science works-you have a hypothesis and that is the fact until another FACT is found that changes that--they discovered the piltdown man was a fake --so that fact went by the wayside.

[cerebus]

Bunnie wrote: "i have a friend that thinks science is not valid because they keep changing the facts--that is the way science works-you have a hypothesis and that is the fact until another FACT is found that changes that"
Absolutely :) I have heard that arguement from people as well, that religion must be more correct than science because it doesn't change but science does. It's one of those arguements that I find staggering that people actually believe.
The whole "but science used to say the Earth was the centre of the solar system, so science was wrong" discussion is amusing as well....yes, science did say that, and what was it that changed people's minds? Yup, that'd be science....it certainly wasn't religion!
It also suggests to me that people who hold that opinion are probably not worth having these discussions with, because they see holding firm in a belief as more important than examining evidence. I prefer to admit that I will change my mind on anything if presented with the relevant evidence.

[cerebus]

Ed wrote: "Would I want to live a world where all the charity, good-will, service that are espoused by those of faith did not exist?"
But do you think that religion is the only reason people give "charity, good-will and service"? 'Cos I don't....

[Ashley]

No way would I live in a world without both. Science is a necessity to everything about our daily lives, from something as basic as cooking, to everything else, electricity, pasterized milk, cell phones, television, medicine, it was all found through science. Science is such a vast enormous thing, that it has impacted every invention known to man. There could be no civilization without science.

Religion is different for everyone. Whether they believe in a God, diety, giant golden calf, or nothing at all, we all believe in something. I think religion is something that explores the heart of man, the devil in us all. I'm a Christian so I have a very simple belief in God, and Jesus. The scientist in me has always butted heads with the Christian. Knowing that we have to come from something, knowing that there is a bigger design to our creation than just some giant God molding us from earth. So I could not live without either. I believe in both.

[cerebus]

Ed wrote: "No, don't put words in my mouth."
I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked you a question, which can either be answered with a Yes, a No, or either of those followed by a 'but'....I did not say "you said religion is the only reason....", I asked "do you think that religion is the only reason...". All part of a normal discussion.

Ed wrote: "Do not disregard the charity of others, wherever it is influenced by. "
I don't disregard it at all, I agree that there are those of faith who do marvelous things for others. The intent of my question though was to determine if you feel that those same people would do otherwise if they didn't have their faith? The reason I ask is I actually believe some people are good, irrespective of their faith or lack thereof, and that these people will do charity work etc either way. If you point to charity as being one of the reasons we need religion, but believe that those same people would do the same things without their religion, then charity is not a reason we need religion.
I would also say that those who do *only* do charity work because their religion tells them to are less moral in my mind than those who do so as a result of empathy or a genuine desire to help others (and no, I don't think this is everyone religious who does charitable deeds!). It's like a begrudging apology from a child who has been told to apologise by a parent....it doesn't mean anything.

[cerebus]

Ashley wrote: "Whether they believe in a God, diety, giant golden calf, or nothing at all, we all believe in something."
This is a point that has been discussed a fair bit in this thread. I do not believe in any god or deity, how do you equate that with religion?

[Ashley]

Honestly, if you don't believe, then you don't have to. The absense of religion doesn't make it a religion. Religion is different for everyone, some people don't have one at all. That's their choice, your choice, you don't have to believe in anything. If you don't want to check a box under Religion you don't have to, that's the wondeful thing about being free to choose.

I just said that I don't want to live in a world without Science or Religion that was my choice, I won't force my choice on anyone.

[cerebus]

Ashley wrote: "I just said that I don't want to live in a world without Science or Religion that was my choice, I won't force my choice on anyone. "
That's fair enough, and a sentiment I agree with (the not forcing sentiment, I still disagree with the world of both sentiment :)). Apologies for misreading your original comment as saying that not believing was also a religion (of sorts) :)