Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? Showing 601-650 of 12,463

[Hazel]

I don't get how people can accept that water has memory, and then not get worried that they're drinking something that remembers all the faeces and urine, not to mention fish sperm, it has had in it.

I have started to come to the conclusion that freedom of speech can't exist in tandem with "mutual respect", basically because mutual respect is rarely mutual. And I'm not saying that I respect every viewpoint I come across, because I quite blatantly don't, but I do have enough respect to know when to shut up and leave people to it - I figure that time is when they're actually doing something that for them is deeply spiritual, it would be cruel of me to trample on that, even if I don't see the need for it.

And I love this idea that every opinion is valid, is it hell. Some opinions are outright idiocy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbY7GO...

[Old-Barbarossa]

Hazel wrote: "I don't get how people can accept that water has memory, and then not get worried that they're drinking something that remembers all the faeces and urine, not to mention fish sperm, it has had in i..."

-Best anti-homeopathy argument ever...I will use it from now on instead of my more basic but equally valid "but it's shit and doesn't work".
Thank you.

[Hazel]

Oh, theres a better way of using that argument against it, one thats so much more fun. It goes something like this:

Let me tell you a story. We don't know what triggers it, but at the same time each year all the salmon of a certain age in the sea disappear, we do know where they've gone though, they are one of a few species of fish able to switch between living in salt water and fresh water. So, if you look, you'll find them swimming determinedly upstream, miles and miles, heading back to the little pool they were hatched in a few years earlier. They're amazing creatures the perseverance they show is astounding, they battle against the current, the leap up waterfalls, nothing will stop them, some fall to the waiting jaws of the bears who collect to take advantage of the salmon run, but most of them, they get through. The males arrive first, and instantly start carving out their patch. Then the females arrive, and the party starts. Fish have external fertilisation and so the females eject their eggs into the water, quickly followed by the males ejaculating onto the floating eggs, so fertilisation can take place. After this frenzy of mating, nearly all the salmon die, except for a few females who manage to eek out a survival and head back out to sea. So, now the water is full of salmon eggs, bot fertilised and unfertilised, as well as salmon sperm, and on top of that there are the decomposing bodies of the salmon themselves. Its astounding, they do this every year, travelling hundreds of miles to return to the place of their birth in order to have one massive mating session and then die."

At this point, I'd stop, as I'd have inserted the story into a conversation about homeopathy, which would usually elicit a response of "yeah, whats that got to do with homoeopathy"

To which I'd respond, well that's what your water is remembering.

The fact that any water you drink has passed through loads of other people/animals/sewage system/sewage farms before it reaches you seems to be ignored an awful lot as well.

Unless water has selective memory of course....

[Hazel]

Justv thought I'd quote this, while we're on Homoeopathy:

Oscillococcinum, a 200C product "for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms," involves "dilutions" that are even more far-fetched. Its "active ingredient" is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100^200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes). In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird "the $20-million duck."

From here:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryR...

[Lynette]

Hazel wrote: "Oh!...Meningitis taking a baby from its parents.Who then accounts for the over 100 babies per minute lost from abortions by youths and Doctors who have no moral reference or guidepost.
Religion may..."

Love this. I agree. The song was great!

[Bukky]

Hmmm......I seem to be speechless now on this protracted issue

[Hazel]

Bukky, speechless how? Have you conceeded defeat in a debate? Or have you decided we're all heathen reprobates that will be going to hell, and the level of our blasphamy has left you unable to articulate your outrage?

[Bukky]

Hazel I'd never think of you guys that way.I respect peoples values and opinions and I appreciate all the superior logic you guys have raised.

Lets just say that maybe........

[Hazel]

OK Bukky, see you around.

anyway, I was just stumbling, and I found this quote, its awesome and I had to share it:

"Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics. You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded. Because the elements, the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars. And the only way they could get into your body is if the stars were kind enough to explode. So forget Jesus. The stars died so you could be here today."

[Bukky]

Nice and really poetic but that doesn't make much sense to me.

Hazel this might be funny.I think you could really pass for a christian.

[Hazel]

Then I suggest going and reading some physics books. Try looking up Neil Tyson on youtube, he's awesome, and explains it all really well. Try reading a few science books, and doing it with a mind not clouded by the bible, and you'll find it does make sense. Google astrophysics.

Personally, I thought the quote was fairly self explanatory.

[Bukky]

I work for a telecomms. company so I've had a good dose of sciences and science books at high school.
Nothing however feels more real and living than the bible

[Travis]

I am a bit amazed by the mind set that looks at the world, beautiful, scary, ugly and crazy as it is and goes ; It's okay, but it's not enough, I need some invisible deity to have made it happen."

I can watch the ocean for hours and never find myself thinking "I wonder who made that?"
Guess I'm too busy going 'wow! that's pretty damn impressive."

[Hazel]

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/2S4B3n/...

here you go, this should get you started.

I'll make you a deal, I'll try reading the bible again, if you read through all that.

[Bukky]

Deal then.

[Hazel]

Bukky, if the bible is that important to you, then great, bully for you, but please watch it anyway - you will need to download itunes if you don't already have it. edit, this was posted before your deal message appeared. I've got a copy, I'll pull it out this week, and start reading. Seeing as I'll be reading a collection of loads of books, and you'll be watching about 15 programmes, could I get you to try readin "Why Evolution is True" by Jerry Coyne as part of the deal too, to make the work loads about equal?

I've worked for a telecomms company, it requires no scientific literacy at all, as proved by me working alongside people who didn't know there was more than one species of butterfly, and who believed it when they were told that the black dots in bananas are spider eggs, yet refused to believe me when I told them that there is a type of mite specifically evolved to live in human eyebrows, or that if you made everything in the world invisible except for nematode worms, you'd end up with a ghost image of the world made of nematode worms.

Travis, my best memory was sat watching the sun come up over the north sea, sat snuggled in my sleeping bag after spending a night on the beach, the sea was pale blue and golden, and the shore birds were flying from the nest site to the feeding grounds. It was beautiful, and not once did I think it was due to a magic man in the sky. I agree, life is too amazing and immense to reduce it with such easily manageable explanations that require no thinking as "god made it"

[Bukky]

Impressive but yet you find it hard to believe in spirituality,in prophecies,that the prophet Isaiah though in literal and poetic form talked about egocentricism long before science was conceived,and that God spoke to men without skype.

[Hazel]

I can have spiritual experiences, that was one in fact, but it wasn't related to religion, it was related to aethetics, and even better, I can find and understand the science behind it. I can feel a sense of awe and wonder, and it doesn't need a god to make it better, in fact a god detracts from it, because it takes away the wonder, it takes away the immensity of it, and the explanations of why the light behaves like it does is far more interesting.

Prophecies are bollocks, you can make a fair guess, but not say whats actually going to happen. There are thousands of prophecies, each that will contradict at least one other, so all you have to do after an event is pull out the right prophecy and wave it saying "see, they said it would happen", while quietly shuffling the rest that say the opposite away with your foot.

God didn't speak to men, because there is no god. What happened is people made up stories to explain the world, and then people had interactions that only occurred in there own heads. Watch some Derren Brown, the power of suggestion is amazing. People can be worked up into a frenzy, and made to believe anything.

However, will you get a copy of Why Evolution is True as well?

[Bukky]

With all your science, explain to me the biological basis of reasoning and consciousness

[Hazel]

what just like that? Sigh. I admit, I cannot, but I'm comfortable with that. Someone more qualified for working with brains, and those who are certified psychologists will get there, then I can read about it, and be amazed.

I did my degree in wildlife biology, not in neurobiology, that's why I waxed lyrical on the evolutionary stuff, and the stuff about cells etc, but tended towards quoting others and providing links for the other bits, but here's some links for you, though really, google will find you the answers:


http://ctaz.com/~fife/25/79.pdf

http://www.dejanrakovicfund.org/books...

[Bukky]

I just pulled up that question from Google "Science's unanswered questions".There are still a pile of them out there and I am sure the site is updated daily.
So if there exist a bunch of qualified guys, I wonder why those questions are still online.......Or maybe they need a little help from God or perhaps the stars

[Hazel]

sigh, Science doesn't know everything, science knows it doesn't know everything,that's why we still have science. That's one of those shit questions used by people who try to disprove the use of science, whereas the rational thinkers among us know that just because we don't' know it now doesn't mean we won't know it some day, and that's why we have these qualified guys, they're out there looking for the answers. That's what science is. And they'll find the answer eventually.

Now, I think we should stop having this tete e tete, and let other people talk too, and just leave the subject be until you've read a few more scientific texts, like origin of species, why evolution is true, unweaving the rainbow, I'd also suggest The God Delusion. I'm sure other people can make suggestions to increase your scientific literacy.

Hehe, I get message number 666 :P

[Bunnie]

Hazel wrote: "Oh!...Meningitis taking a baby from its parents.Who then accounts for the over 100 babies per minute lost from abortions by youths and Doctors who have no moral reference or guidepost.
Religion may..."

[Bunnie]

hazel--again you have said it all for me--i don't have to say a word.

[Hazel]

:D Affirmation for the win. If this were a stage, I'd be on an encore.

Oh, Bucky, look, you don't even have to buy it:

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1MOIU2/...

[Hazel]

Have you ever had one of those moments, you know the ones, that happen well after you should have thought of what you should have said, but now its really too late to say it? I had one of those this evening... well, I don't care, I'm gonna say it anyway.

When Jeff mentioned that he felt that other species got on ok without science in their lives, I went off on a bit of a rant in response about how he would starve to death if he tried to live without science, when really what I should have said was:

"They all cope without religion too, so ya boo sucks to you, what was your point?"

[Bunnie]

hazel--haha that was a good one- yes i usually come up with something smart to say long after the event.humans really didn't get along well until some thinking men looked for the correct answers-- for which mind you, they were sometimes killed !

[Travis]

Hazel talks against religion and has post #666...?
Quick, somebody check her for cloven hooves or if she smells of brimstone...!

Bukky's gripe is how can science be trusted if there are still unanswered questions?
Yes, religion has all the answers, but most of the answers are 'because god said so!"

[cerebus]

Bukky wrote: "Nice and really poetic but that doesn't make much sense to me."
It's quite simple really, the elements that you are made up of can only be 'created' via nuclear fusion in a dying star......

[Bunnie]

hazel--my God check out message 672--we must be wrong!

[cerebus]

Bukky wrote: "With all your science, explain to me the biological basis of reasoning and consciousness"
Here ya go...Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid
It proposes how consciousness may have arisen, and is one of the most interesting and challenging books I have read. I'll give you a hint, it doesn't rely on god....

[cerebus]

Congrats to Hazel on getting post #666, although it would have been kinda cool to see someone evangelical get it and then point it out to them to see if they'd delete their post :)

[cerebus]

Bukky wrote: "I just pulled up that question from Google "Science's unanswered questions".There are still a pile of them out there and I am sure the site is updated daily.
So if there exist a bunch of qualified ..."
Wow, do you honestly believe that that is a point in favour of religion?! If the page had no questions and scientists said "we know it all" would you not be the first to accuse them of hubris?? As Hazel pointed out science knows that it doesn't know everything, and that we can strive to understand new things, and to understand better things we already think we understand. That's a good thing! Do you drive a Model-T Ford, or do you think improvements made to cars since then have been worthwhile? Do you think we should stop improving them now, or maybe, call me crazy, admit that we don't know it all yet and continue to try improving them so we can get, say, emissionless cars??
There are points and discussions from the side of religion that I can respect without agreeing with them, but the "scientists don't know it all" one is juvenile and not even remotely thought through.

[cerebus]

Hazel wrote: "what I should have said was:

"They all cope without religion too, so ya boo sucks to you, what was your point?" "
Damn, now I wish I'd thought of that one!

[Bunnie]

Hazel wrote: "OK Bukky, see you around.

anyway, I was just stumbling, and I found this quote, its awesome and I had to share it:

"Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And the atoms in your l..."

[Bunnie]

hazel--darn you are the best at expressing your opinion that i have read in a long time-

[cerebus]

Bunnie wrote: "hazel--darn you are the best at expressing your opinion that i have read in a long time-"
And I thought I was doing so well! :D (only joking, I agree with you on this :))

[Hazel]

As a kid I wouldn't have said boo to a goose. I don't know where it came from... I think being forced to learn how to speak publicly as part of my uni course probably helped, I stuttered and stammered my way through the first presentation I had to do, I was shaking and couldn't look up at the audience. I got a really poor mark, even though I was only one of two people who actually stuck to the subject matter - the ingestive behaviour of [insert animal here]. I got the hedgehog, that was a bitch, I found only one paper that talked about how they ingest their food. Everyone else just talked about digestion, which wasn't what we were asked. But it was about the presentation and how well we did it, not the subject matter, so I don't mind getting a shit mark. I did do a pretty drawing of a hedgehog though. By the end of that module I successfully argued for hunting with dogs (we were told to take the pro stance, as part of an exercise), because my team had read the full papers the other team were trying to use to back up the anti hunt stance they'd been told to take.

I've always been very opinionated, it just took a while before I was able to express it without wanting to curl up and hide. I'm now the person who has a go at people for cycling on the pavement... actually, I now try to make it look like I'm being helpful "you want to watch yourself mate, if you get caught its a £50 on the spot fine", whereas it used to be "Oi, are you 12? Get off the fucking path, dickhead".

I think I'm waffling now...

I reread everything I write about 3 times before posting it, correct spelling and grammar mistakes I spot, and double check what I'm writing... then I'll do it at least twice more after I've posted, which is why all my posts inevitably get edited... see, even this one has been edited... and I've read it back about 5 times... maybe I'm a little OCD... >.>

[Bunnie]

hazel--i have only one thing to say in the defense of those religious people--they were taught this stuff from the time they were children.it is difficult to overcome what has been taught as a child--that is why churches like to get 'em while they're young.they spend time reading some book written by many different people over many years-innaccurate as it probably is-if they ever read a good informative book on science maybe they would start to think.

[Hazel]

I have little problem with religious people, to be honest, its religion I have a beef with. I know plenty of religious folk who are lovely - I was christened as Methodist, and my god mother works for the archbishop of York.

Interestingly, I was christened Methodist while my mam was CoE, and my dad was catholic. The catholic church in the village wouldn't have us because my mam was CoE, and the CoE church wouldn't have us because my dad was catholic. The third church in the village was methodist,and they'll take anyone :P

[Bunnie]

hazel,funny isn't it that so called loving religious groups won't have you unless you conform to what they teach and believe. i was very fortuante to have had parents and grandparents that were not religious-my husband on the other hand was raised a catholic-but at an early age figured out it was all BS. my husbands grandmother was housekeeper for the catholic diocese in San Diego--when i went there to visit her i noticed how well the priests live--someone to cook for them ,to clean for them ,to drive them and lovely place to live-all this for feeding bull shit to the masses.

[Hazel]

Personally, I've always considered Father Ted to be a reasonably acurate documentary of life in a catholic rectory (is that the right word?) :P

[Bunnie]

hazel--you could enlighten me--who is Father TEd?

[Bunnie]

hazel--in reference to message 682--my god it's like old home week--i refer to the salty language--after you said you were opinionated i realized that is why i am always in trouble--i open my mouth too easily and say what i am thinking instead of thinking first and not saying anything-
i never thought about the ingestion of a hedgehog.

[Hazel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqL2bj...

sorry about the ads at the beginning...

[Bunnie]

hazel--i tried to get this link--it is not available in my country--with the use of the word mate i gather you are from Australia. so apparently we don't have a father Ted here.

[Hazel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz0tmG...

try this one, its a clip rather than a full episode, but its enough to give you a taster, and then you can follow links to other ones.

And no, I'm from the UK.

[Gary]

The origin of science is religion, so no need to choose...

[Hazel]

how do you figure that science came from religion? It certainly funded a lot of it early on, but it isn't the origin of it. The basic human need to understand the world is the origin of science.

Science most certainly pre-dates the monotheistic religions, and if you look at, for eg, ancient greece, the religious folk and the philosophers hated each other.

[Gary]

I'm not using math--I'm informed by intellectual history...