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A Darker Shade of Magic
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ADSOM: April 2016 Main Pick: A Darker Shade of Magic by V.E. Schwab
I'm sorry, this is the last off topic remark, I promise-- holy smokes this Griffin/Claire/North/etc person writes some incredible looking books. Just bought A Madness of Angels, which is pretty much, in my mind, the best title for a book ever (though I will not be getting to it until after the sexy angel book that was in the bracket, which will not be got to until summer, alas)
I think there is a really interesting conversation to be had about this book and YA classification. I found out it was NOT classified as YA after I finished it and frankly I was baffled. I knew the author was a successful YA writer, and the book checks all the boxes for YA, including writing style, character age, subject matter etc.
Ultimately I'm left with the suspicion that there was a somewhat cynical marketing decision made here by the publisher and/or author in an attempt to broaden her reader base. I don't exactly fault them for it since the YA designation has been needlessly hated on and smeared in recent years. (I have read and enjoyed plenty of YA novels). But simultaneously I'm bothered by the way this "genre" designation continues to lose any actual meaning.
From a marketing standpoint it seems to have been a successful choice. I spent some time looking at the goodreads reviews and it's very clear that her YA fan base followed her over to the "adult" series.
Rob Secundus wrote: "Just bought A Madness of Angels, which is pretty much, in my mind, the best title for a book ever (though I will not be getting to it until after the sexy angel book that was in the bracket, which will not be got to until summer, alas) "Just wanted to respond to this real quick: don't worry, they're not that kind of angel. That book is one of the best examples of post-modern Urban Fantasy (think Gaiman's Neverwhere, or Mieville's Kraken) I've ever seen.
Back on topic - I've started listening to the audiobook (two chapters in, so not too far), and I'm enjoying it. Kinda makes me want to pick up the Luther Arkwright comics once I've finished.
E.J. Xavier wrote: "I think there is a really interesting conversation to be had about this book and YA classification. I found out it was NOT classified as YA after I finished it and frankly I was baffled. I knew t..."
It does seem to have been a wildly successful marketing tactic. It got me to read it where if it was YA I probably wouldn't have. To be fair, established adult fantasy writers also sometimes try to crack into the YA market (like Abercrombie's latest trilogy, which I liked as books but I have no idea if YA readers would enjoy them), so it does go both ways.
Mod
It would be at the older end of the YA age range. There are several scenes of (view spoiler) which I feel are enough to make it a better fit for not having a YA label.
To be fair, established adult fantasy writers also sometimes try to crack into the YA market (like Abercrombie's latest trilogy, which I liked as books but I have no idea if YA readers would enjoy them), so it does go both ways..."I'm not at all bothered by authors working cross genre. I think it's the mark of a skilled writer to do so successfully. I do question a writer marketing cross genre without actually changing much if anything.
Basically, I feel like no matter how you define YA this book belongs in the category. So choosing to push it as "adult fantasy" seems disingenuous to me. Particularly since this is an author who up to this point has worked heavily in YA. I wish she'd made more of an effort to deliver on the promise that this was categorically different than her previous works.
Tassie Dave wrote: "E.J. Xavier wrote: "I found out it was NOT classified as YA after I finished it and frankly I was baffled. I knew the author was a successful YA writer, and the book checks all the boxes for YA, in..."I'm going to have to disagree with this. None of those scenes are more intense than the Hunger Games, Divergent, or Twilight. I would firmly argue that they are actually more tame in their description. In fact I would say it's not even darker than the later Harry Potter novels. And these are all flagship "YA" titles.
Sean wrote: "don't worry, they're not that kind of angel. "Sean, that is incredibly worrying I love stories about "that kind of Angel," Neverwhere being an example of a particularly excellent angel-adjacent story.
E.J. Xavier wrote: " None of those scenes are more intense than the Hunger Games, Divergent, or Twilight."
Really, at this point, YA is very near on the borders of grimdark. And that's not even keeping it to genre YA-- "realistic" YA fiction is about people getting raped, or racistly tortured, or dying of cancer.
hurrah, the whimsy of youth!
That said, I'm not far in it yet, but it feels a little too high concept for YA to me.
Okay, well here's the description from the series' TVTropes page (under "Our Angels Are Different"; and no, this isn't really a spoiler):"The blue electric angels aren't "angels" in any sense we would recognize; rather, they're the product of the life that's been spilled into the phones over the years."
This is what I meant when I called it post-modern UF. So if that doesn't sound like your cup of tea, that's fine. I still recommend the book, though.
A Madness of Angels is quite good. Oddly, the North/Griffin/Webb thing is slightly topical - what she did was create three totally different names for her work. Catherine Webb, her real name, is what she publishes YA under. Griffin is the urban fantasy and fantasy brand, North is the SF/Spec Fic brand. As always, we could debate where the lines are, but they're reasonably clear. Schwab, having not really made much of a division, seems from above comments to not have made much division between writing, either. I don't have a problem with a book being YA, but I do have a problem with a book being dumbed down because it's YA. Whether this book is or isn't, I can't tell since the library has actually let other people check it out before me. The NERVE !! :)
Rob Secundus wrote: "I'm not far in it yet, but it feels a little too high concept for YA to me..."I'm not clear what "high concept" means in this context but I look forward to hearing more once you finish it. For now I think I'll give everyone a chance to read it since I recognize we are a bit early for a full blown discussion, and I'm starting to worry about rules and spoilers etc.
Darren wrote: "Tassie Dave wrote: "Kevin wrote: "Got and read A Gathering of Shadows yesterday from the library, and it was even worse than A Darker Shade of Magic."Confirmation bias, Kevin."
No, there has been books I didn't like in a series, but loved other books within the series for different reasons, can't think of one on top of my head other than Words of Radiance is way better in most people's opinion including myself than Way of Kings.
People may like and dislike different books within a series because of changes.
Got it from the library yesterday.. about 25% in and so far so good... I don't know much of anything about it so I'm super interested to see what happens.
Mod
The problem is that no-one has defined the YA classification. It is a suggestion at best and each publisher has their own definition. Some use a 12 -18 age range for YA. While I would have been reading more graphically violent books than this when I was younger than 12, there would be 12 yo that would find this too mature.
If I had to age rate this, I would put it at a Mature Teenage level 15+ (Similar to the Australian movie rating MA15+)
Tassie Dave wrote: "E.J. Xavier wrote: "I'm going to have to disagree with this. None of those scenes are more intense than the Hunger Games, Divergent, or Twilight. I would firmly argue that they are actually more ta..."In the states it's called PG-13. I'm hard pressed to think of anything that would stop a film adaptation of this from easily getting that rating. There's more violence and torture in the Marvel superhero movies frankly. A lot more. In fact I seem to recall that this is getting made into a TV show isn't it? I'm not sure you could make this "not safe for prime time" if you tried.
But seriously to be clear, I'm not insisting this is YA to be insulting. I'm not in the camp of people who thinks that a YA designation is somehow "lesser". The Fault in Our Stars is one of the most brilliant pieces of literature of the last decade, and I'll defend that assertion to any elitist who want's to try to knock it down.
But I do think it's worth asking why a book that seems to so clearly fall into the common definition of a popular category is being consciously marketed outside of it. I do think there are cultural issues at play here, but I'm also unconvinced that the publishing industry hasn't made some of the problem for themselves.
Maybe possibly getting this back on sort of subject.I liked ADSoM. I can see why some people wouldn't like it (too romance, too YA, too "simple") are common complaints I see (and I can understand all but the last but only because the last is never expounded upon). However, I probably won't be too active in the discussion, since I read it last year and have the sequel in progress now (slowed significantly by the real March Madness and some life crap). I am looking forward to the discussion on the actual book.
too romance? I hardly remember any romance.
It's one of the complaints I've seen. (view spoiler) The sequel has more romantic scenes, too...which doesn't make it romance, but people categorize how they will....Edited: put something in spoiler tags. I really don't think it was a spoiler but sometimes people don't want to know ANYTHING
Strange, if anything i'd criticize the book as being absurdly chaste.
Mod
There was more romance between (view spoiler) than there was between (view spoiler) ;-)
I'm only early into Book 2 (20%) and apart from (view spoiler) there hasn't been much sex, let alone any romance.
I am expecting it to come when (view spoiler)
I don't mind a bit of romance in my fantasy books, as long as it's not the main purpose of the book. Fine if thats what you like.
Hi, Just finished reading this. I do not feel this is YA because the protagonists are more than 20 years of age. Lila and Kell may be inexperienced but they are not teen agers.
Simplified language is not just a marker of YA (try some Hemingway). It takes skill to keep the language at a simple level whilst imparting complex ideas.
The lack of over the top violence is a somewhat refreshing after reading many recent fantasy books that I have read. The plot moves quickly and it hangs together well. An easy holiday read and I will pick up the second book soon (once my reading pile has shrunk a bit).
Iain wrote: "Hi, Just finished reading this. I do not feel this is YA because the protagonists are more than 20 years of age. Lila and Kell may be inexperienced but they are not teen agers.
Simplified langu..."
But from your 3 star review, I don't think you reading found this to be the best of reads ever.
Plus Hemingway is just as bad. Too much unnecessary backgrounds and details.
Like Schwab, both of them have a few major events that ever happened in their books. A waste of time to read them.
message 74:
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Tassie Dave, S&L Historian
(last edited Mar 29, 2016 04:20PM)
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rated it 4 stars
Mod
Lila is 19, so still a teenager. Kell is 21.
Kevin wrote: "Like Schwab, both of them have a few major events that ever happened in their books. A waste of time to read them."
It's the journey that matters, not the destination.
Ok, I'm sorry, it's fine to not like Hemingway. Hell, I'mNot a fan myself. But saying he gives "unnecessary details" is simply false. It's objectively not true. No single critic, no matter how negatively they view his work, would ever agree. His style is precisely about the careful selection of things, only noting exactly what is necessary. Every detail in Hemingway matters. Every word counts. He's minimalist. sparse. Stereotypically so. That's precisely what people who dislike him dislike about him! (Well, that and his gender stuff).
I'm not getting a Hemingway vibe, or even an overly simple vibe, from the first few chapters. The narrator reminds me most of Gaiman-- she knows exactly how delightful is the world that she's telling.
W/r/t high concept, I was thinking this story was driven more by the conceit/ setting than is typical in YA. In the hunger games Katniss is more important than the dystopia. In high concept Orwell the dystopia is more important than Winston. I'm not sure I still agree with my earlier comment; we'll see.
EDIT: Rereading this I sound a bit rude. I apologize. I went FULL PROFESSOR mode.
The ages of the main characters are interesting. Lila's 19 seems a little old for her station in life, whereas 21 seems young for Kell. Maybe it was done to avoid creepiness?
Kevin wrote: "But from your 3 star review, I don't think you reading found this to be the best of reads ever. "Kevin, don't assume that giving a book 3/5 means they think the book is bad. Yeah, it's clearly not the best possible score, it could just mean "good, but not great." That's pretty much what my 3/5's mean. Believe it or not, people can like books without thinking they're perfect, amazing, or wonderful.
message 78:
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Tassie Dave, S&L Historian
(last edited Mar 29, 2016 05:33PM)
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rated it 4 stars
Mod
3 is a good book. ADSOM is slightly better than good. It was a fun read.
4 is a book I consider to be amongst the best of it's genre.
5 is only for exceptional books.
I have given 2 stars to books I enjoyed but had problems with.
0s and 1s I reserve for books I dislike.
Iain wrote: " Simplified language is not just a marker of YA (try some Hemingway). It takes skill to keep the language at a simple level whilst imparting complex ideas. ..."I agree. Simplified language can absolutely be a marker of great skill and not limited to YA.
Some YA authors are also deeply skilled.
I feel like there is a lot of resistance to calling this book YA, but so far I haven't found the arguments against particularly convincing (no offense meant here). I am though getting a general sense though that calling it "YA" is being perceived as insulting or demeaning of the work. Which is generally strengthening my suspicion that a marketing decision was made.
There is a dismissive perception out there that YA is largely tween girl romance, which this book definitely is not. I could see how publishers might wish to avoid falling into that pigeon hole since it would turn off plenty of readers who otherwise might like the book.
Mod
If I was in a book store and it had a YA shelf, I wouldn't go near it.
On the belief that it would be full of books more suitable for kids.
I have read some great YA books, but they are books I have been lead to by people who's tastes I respect, not books I have picked out myself.
Tassie Dave wrote: "I would agree that there is a negative perception among some older readers to the YA label. There was no YA classification when I was that age. It is a relatively modern thing.If I was in a book ..."
But the YA crowd has the biggest voice, especially on social media. Just look at Sanderson as an example, after they discovered Steelheart, as I stated before his audience/readership basically doubled over night.
Citation please. I'm not saying his YA stuff didn't draw in more readers, but I imagine his work finishing WoT might have done just as much, if not more.
Mod
But for someone my age (53) who grew up in a time when there were 2 fiction sections in my library (Children and Adult), the YA label does have, (albeit undeserved), a negative effect.
We must move in different circles, because I see very little social media about YA. I believe you that it is out there. Just not in the areas I choose to inhabit.
Well, I'd be a little freaked out if you DID hang out in the same social media circles as 14 year olds... :) The issue I have with YA as a category is that I assume it's mostly about coming of age issues or issues faced by teens and, like you, I'm in my 50s. I'm past all that.
The odd thing is that I bought Archivist Wasp and didn't realize it was classed as YA. There's NOTHING about it that's a Young Adult book aside from the age of the protagonist.
Mod
Rick wrote: "Well, I'd be a little freaked out if you DID hang out in the same social media circles as 14 year olds... :) "
Kevin's 14? No way, he's older than that. Isn't he?
If so. He is well read for a 14 year old. Going by his "read" shelf on GR.
Rick wrote: "Well, I'd be a little freaked out if you DID hang out in the same social media circles as 14 year olds... :) The issue I have with YA as a category is that I assume it's mostly about coming of ag..."
The age of the protagonist has a lot to do with it's YA classification, in the same way that middle-grade books have middle-grade protagonists. They don't necessarily have to do deal with "teen life" or coming of age stories. It's more important that young adults are the focus of the story, they are the ones moving action along, and they are the deciders. I was always think about an article I read about one of the Degrassi shows (middle/high school show). The writers made a point to never have only adults on screen, to never give adults more speaking time, to have the actors as close in age to the characters they portrayed, and to give the kids the agency to make their decisions. That is what I think of as "young adult" in novels. There is also the sub-classification of "new adult" which would the 19-23 age range, I suppose.
I've taken some young adult lit classes and books there included Who Fears Death, Annie on My Mind, and Ask Me No Questions which is only part of pretty wide range of topics and types of stories.
I would say that a lot of books people consider "classics" would fall under the young adult label (Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer books, Diary of Anne Frank, Jane Austen and the Bronte sisters' books feature young adults, Toni Morrison's novels, Catcher in the Rye, etc.), especially since they are heavy in rotation in high school reading curriculum (a YA audience).
Despite my wall of text, I don't getting hung up on the idea of a YA novel is all that important. Things get shuffled around and featured in different parts of bookstores all the time. One person might classify something as YA, and another might not.
"Young Adult" means one thing, and one thing only: the publisher believes teenagers are the primary target market for the title, and focuses their marketing energies accordingly. In the 70s and 80s, that meant a lot of books about everyday teenagers speaking in authentic-sounding teen dialogue dealing (including profanity) with real-world teen problems like divorced parents, gangs, bullying, drug abuse, physical abuse, neglect, teen pregnancy, sexual awakening, etc.--because the primary purchasers of YA were educators and librarians. Today it means anything from SF&F with an adolescent first-person POV to dark dystopian tales to stories about teenagers with terminal illnesses, because today's teens have grown up in a world where SF&F is mass culture entertainment, not a fringe market, and where they're seen as active consumers of media product, not adults-in-training with no disposable income. YA being a target market and not a literary genre means it can and will be applied to reprints of books even if the YA label didn't exist when the book was originally published (i.e., before the early-to-mid 70s), if the publisher feels that's a more appropriate audience to market the book to. I liked Mistborn: The Final Empire quite a bit, but I didn't find anything so challenging or mature in it that would necessitate it being published as "adult fantasy", while The Hunger Games had far more interesting and mature things to say about politics and war and the weaponization of public image than most titles sold as adult SF&F, but the former is sold as adult and the latter is sold as YA. It is what it is.
Joe Informatico wrote: ""Young Adult" means one thing, and one thing only: the publisher believes teenagers are the primary target market for the title, and focuses their marketing energies accordingly. In the 70s and 80s..."Mistborn has gone through rebranding as YA. The most recent (2014) paperback is published by Tor Teen (previously published by Tor Books and Tor Fantasy) and the reading age listed on the Barnes & Noble site is 13-18. I've seen it in used bookstores and it has always been shelved as YA.
For this month's pick, I'm 4th in line for a library copy, so it could be a long while. I'll probably end up trying to find it at one of the bookstores around here.
Tassie Dave wrote: "I think 3 is a fair score for the book. I would rate it 3.5 stars, but as Goodreads doesn't allow half stars, I would probably round down to 3."Same here. I ended up rating it 4 stars, because I really enjoyed reading it, but most of the books I read get 3 star ratings and it depends on my mood whether I'll continue reading or not. 3 stars is a perfectly acceptable book when it comes to my Goodreads ratings, 4 stars is something that I really enjoyed and 5 stars are books that really stand out.
3.5 stars would have been perfect for ADSoM, but Goodreads doesn't offer that, so there you go.
Ender's Game has been categorized and came out as middle grade, YA, and adult all at the same time. The 1st 2 WoT came out for middle grade, but it was split in half.
His Dark Material is marketed for both adults, and middle grade.
Graveyard Book and Coraline are both marketed to adults and middle grade alike.
Tassie Dave wrote: "While I think this book is not YA, I can see why people think it could be recommended for that group. The sequel does have more of a YA feel than ADSOM. I am still enjoying it, though not as much a..."I'm not 14, not most of the reader of YA is not also 14. Mostly I see readers of YA are young females in high school and college.
Mistborn has gone through rebranding as YA.
Of for... that's silly and proves that YA is a meaningless term. Mistborn is in no way YA just because Vin is a teen. Kelsier is just as important as Vin in the story and is an adult. His gang are all adults as are their antagonists.
Rick wrote: "Mistborn has gone through rebranding as YA.
Of for... that's silly and proves that YA is a meaningless term. Mistborn is in no way YA just because Vin is a teen. Kelsier is just as important as V..."
Part of the reason I think TOR made Mistborn YA is because of double the readership/audience that Sanderson gained from Steelheart, I think most of them were YA readers. So making Mistborn YA, it allowed them to pull that crowd into Sanderson's other work a lot more attractive, especially the original Mistborn trilogy, which is his best known/read work.
Rick wrote: "Mistborn has gone through rebranding as YA.
Of for... that's silly and proves that YA is a meaningless term. Mistborn is in no way YA just because Vin is a teen. Kelsier is just as important as V..."
I think it depends on what meaning you are looking for, as several people have pointed out it's a marketing thing. So it has meaning as far as who are they marketing to but it varies in why and therefore I find it very useless as a reader.
Another factoid relevant to the discussion: Neil Gaiman's most recent novel, about a young kid, was not marketed as YA, but it seems in part because Neil Gamain said on every interview, on his blog, Twitter, absolutely everywhere, over and over again, "THIS IS NOT YA. DO NOT ASSUME CHILDREN CAN AND SHOULD READ THIS. SOME MIGHT. BUT IT IS NOT YA"
Rob Secundus wrote: "Another factoid relevant to the discussion: Neil Gaiman's most recent novel, about a young kid, was not marketed as YA, but it seems in part because Neil Gamain said on every interview, on his blog..."And that, it seems to me, should be the line. Should most kids (for YA I assume that's 12 or 13 to 18 or so) read the book? Is it targeted at them not only in character and plot but also writing style (sorry, but a 14 year old reader does not have the same command of the language as a 40 year old reader with rare exceptions.) For example, a story about a divorce might be targeted at YA if most of the book is from the kid's perspective and how it's affecting them. However, if there's a teen character who gets some reasonable time but the book really is from the perspective of the adults... that, to me, isn't YA even though a teen character gets significant time. That's kind of why I reacted to the Mistborn news with an eyeroll. Yes, Vin's a teen but she's not the primary perspective character throughout. On the other hand, I think YA serves a good purpose if it gets younger people to read and I'd rather them read widely than not.
greg - I think we agree on Mistborn. It's purely marketing and arbitrary hence effectively meaningless.
Rick wrote: "Rob Secundus wrote: "Another factoid relevant to the discussion: Neil Gaiman's most recent novel, about a young kid, was not marketed as YA, but it seems in part because Neil Gamain said on every i..."Good way to sum that up: Tamora Pierce's novels (which tend to span ages 9-18 for the main character and are YA) vs. SoIAF which has children POV, but is not targeted to children. Just because there is an adolescent voice, it does not make it YA. While I would argue that age of the protagonist is a factor, it is not the only.
I would have to say that this discussion has been hijacked by a more general discussion about the Young Adult classification which has little or nothing to do with this book. If you want to continue, I would suggest you start a new thread and keep this space for discussion specifically about A Darker Shade of Magic.
Sean wrote: "I would have to say that this discussion has been hijacked by a more general discussion about the Young Adult classification which has little or nothing to do with this book. If you want to continu..."I was going to say the same thing. There is actually already a thread about "what exactly makes a ya book anyway.
Mod
Plus this is only the kick off thread to announce the book. They always go off on tangents :-)
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
Nice Dragons Finish Last (other topics)Vicious (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
V.E. Schwab (other topics)N.K. Jemisin (other topics)
Confirmation bias, Kevin.