The Sword and Laser discussion
What exactly makes a YA book, anyway?
I think, and I daresay someone will correct me here, YA fiction tends to feature teenaged protagonists and addresses Teen issues such as young love, finding one's identity and such like.
Eric wrote: "mention of erections, bestiality, the word "fuck", and a couple other things"First off, from my knowledge of YA, the above quoted contents is VERY rare in YA books. From what I've noticed and learnt (particularly as the booktube community on YouTube is like 99% YA readers and audience) YA just means themes of: teenage protagonist slash characters, while usually having a lot of violence, there's hardly any 'sex' or even talk of it (and when it is, it's referred really child-like and hush-hush) and swearing can range from none to a lot. YA books also seems to have a lot of 'insta-love' relationships.
These are just what I've noticed from reading YA books.
Alex wrote: "Chuck Wendig has a good explanation: http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2013/..."Love how that reads. Very fun.
Alex wrote: "Eric wrote: "mention of erections, bestiality, the word "fuck", and a couple other things"
First off, from my knowledge of YA, the above quoted contents is VERY rare in YA books. From what I've not..."
I'm not going to discount your experiences. Each of us have different, valid experiences. But the link that male-Alex (how weird to have, based on profile photos, both a male and female Alex comment one after another) seems to validate my experiences. At least 3 of his 25 (actually 28) points mention sex, drugs, etc. Perhaps I've read YA that's more towards the upper end (age-wise) and you've read YA that's more towards the lower end (age-wise).
To elaborate, the book I mentioned in the sidenote of my first post was most definitely filed in the YA section of my library. It featured some kind of future society where all the kids had to take a morality test in virtual reality in which they had to decide whether or not to enter a whore house. There also was no sex for adults. The guy goes into some machine that sorts the sperm for the traits the parents want and then that goes into the woman. There were tons of scenes featuring masturbation because of this weird world. And it was just a strange, strange book that I was not quite ready to wrap my head around at 12. I did much better with Jurassic Park.
Don't forget "New Adult", which sort of bridges the gap between YA and full adult. Supposedly. I haven't read any to confirm, having been burnt by the horrifically whiney characters of every YA I've ever read (with the notable exception of Dearly, Departed, Veronica Belmont's alt selection for the Vaginal Fantasy Bookclub's zombie month)
PointyEars42 wrote: "Don't forget "New Adult", which sort of bridges the gap between YA and full adult. Supposedly. I haven't read any to confirm, having been burnt by the horrifically whiney characters of every YA I'v..."Good info. The terribleminds article didn't have much good to say about New Adult.
For good YA I'd recommend Terry Pratchett's Nation and ZvU anthology that started this topic has many different types of stories in it, so probably at least one you'd like? So far I've really liked all but one of them.
A.L. wrote: "I think, and I daresay someone will correct me here, YA fiction tends to feature teenaged protagonists and addresses Teen issues such as young love, finding one's identity and such like."More about the issues part than the age of protagonists.
Eric wrote: "I'm no prude (in other words this stuff doesn't bother me as a reader), but it appears we seem to have an issue with book ratings v movies, TV, and video games.... Unicorns v Zombies has, throughout the stories in the anthology: mention of erections, bestiality, the word "fuck", and a couple other things."There are plenty of movies rated R by the MPAA yet aimed squarely at teens. Personally, I think YA SF should take after John Hughes a lot more than Stephanie Meyer.
Sean wrote: "Eric wrote: "I'm no prude (in other words this stuff doesn't bother me as a reader), but it appears we seem to have an issue with book ratings v movies, TV, and video games.... Unicorns v Zombies h..."The aiming at kids is fine. But a rating plus the reason - video games seem to do this better than any other medium (eg M for x, y, and z)- is helpful to guide parents. They may or may not ignore it - but it's nice to have.
Eric wrote: "The aiming at kids is fine. But a rating plus the reason - video games seem to do this better than any other medium (eg M for x, y, and z)- is helpful to guide parents. They may or may not ignore it - but it's nice to have. "Ratings are a bad idea even if they're voluntary. Look at what happened with movies after the MPAA introduced the rating system -- most theaters refuse to show X/NC-17 movies, forcing directors to censor their work if they want a wide release. Or look at the way musicians have to release "clean" versions of albums because certain retailers won't carry anything with a parental advisory.
Kids should read whatever they want, whether it's Dr. Seuss or Stephen King.
On this I agree. You want censorship? That's the job of parenting, not the artist. Should Michelangelo have painted a less-revealing version of the Sistine Chapel to appease certain age audiences?
Sean wrote: "Eric wrote: "The aiming at kids is fine. But a rating plus the reason - video games seem to do this better than any other medium (eg M for x, y, and z)- is helpful to guide parents. They may or may..."Good point. Walmart or whoever could refuse to sell stuff with a certain rating. For me it's like - I don't have infinite time to read my books and my kids' books. I'd prefer to have a progression. Like if her vocab is good enough to read anything, I'd like to not limit her to like babysitter's club. But it'd be nice to not have more graphic stuff sooooo early. Again, I know it really bothered me to read some stuff ahead of time. (So it's not like I'm guessing about something I've never been through)
YA SHOULD be books with teen main characters dealing with "teen" type issues - first love/sex, difficult family life, finding yourself, etc.What some YA is - anything with a younger than 20 MC/coming of age storyline - this is a shelving/publisher thing.
The problem is when really good books get stuck into the YA category, but adults won't read them because they've been burned by stuff like Twilight.
I don't mind what category a book is shelved as, if it's well-written, but it is hard to pick out the good ones since there is such a glut of churned-out, copycat crap hoping to jump in on the tremendous sales a popular YA novel can produce.
What's the difference, if you could say, between those two definitions Michele?
Eric wrote: "Alex wrote: "Chuck Wendig has a good explanation: http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2013/..."Love how that reads. Very fun.
Alex wrote: "Eric..."
I'm also an Alex - female.
A.L. wrote: "Eric wrote: "Alex wrote: "Chuck Wendig has a good explanation: http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2013/..."Love how that reads. Very fun.
Alex..."
Apologies. Hard to tell with the tiny images.
@ Kenneth - tl;dr warning!The difference, in my opinion only, SHOULD be - Twilight vs Star Wars.
What's the backbone of Star Wars (the original trilogy anyway)? Good vs evil, war, politics, responsibility, duty.
What's the backbone of Twilight? Love triangle.
Here's another example. Among Others vs Ender's Game.
Among Others focused on Mori, her feelings of alienation from the people around her, her struggle to decide how to use her power for good, or use it at all. She worries about sex and guys also. The entire story is about her internal conflicts really.
Ender's Game is about an incredibly gifted little boy forced to become an adult and a soldier. He also feels alienated, alone, persecuted even. But the main story is about war, strategy, psychology, abuse, fear. And Ender quickly learns to deal with things like an adult soldier would, even though he's only like 6-12 years old.
I loved Among Others, and I doubt most people who read Ender's Game would say it focused on any YA-style issues.
But Ender's Game is tagged here on Goodreads as YA by 2648 people.
Teens read all kinds of stuff and so do adults. I think shelving a book in certain category is just a way to target a potential audience to sell the most copies. Just like the discussion about a new author being called "the next J.K. Rowling," publishers hope to ride the wave.
"Oh it has a young adult woman MC - cut out the graphic sex scene, beef up the love triangle, add some inner monologue and Voilà! Shelve it next to Hunger Games, Divergent, City of Mortal Instruments, Beautiful Creatures! Make a movie or three!
Then, authors who happen to have a young adult protagonist, even though there isn't any big love triangle, misunderstandings with parents, or agonizing over "Who am I?" get slapped with the YA label.
And then scifi/fantasy adult readers think, "Eww, it's YA, I won't read any of that Dawson's Creek/90210 in fantasyland/space crapola! Krom spare me from the emo, angsty, sparkly love interests! No PG-13 for me, no sirree!"
Well I wandered all over the place with this post. What did I find?
I think, in my humble opinion, in general, that ...WHAT I WOULD CALL YA... is mostly stylistic and thematic. YA focuses on the internal conflict of one young person learning to deal with changing body chemistry, relationships, mental and emotional growth, added responsibilities, greater understanding of life and the world and stuff. Whatever curtains of fantasy, steampunk, vampires, dystopia, robots, spaceships, aliens you drape around it, it's still at heart about the young person becoming an adult. Usually told through 1st person or tight 3rd, everything is filtered through his/her perspective, and it is the viewpoint of a not-fully-formed person.
I'd put everything else in the basic categories of adult fiction, no matter what the age of the protagonists. Teens will still find and read whatever they want, wherever it's shelved.
That's more than I expected! I agree with most of what you wrote. :)
Late to the discussion here....IMO, the YA designation for Zombies Vs. Unicorns relates more to the book's origins. Some years back, when I was reading Justine Larbalestier's blog, she and fellow YA writer Holly Black had a mock-battle going on about which were better, zombies or unicorns. (I'm pretty sure Holly liked unicorns and Justine liked zombies.)
As the battle continued, they decided to ask their YA writer friends, of whom they have a great many, to pick sides and write stories reflecting their choices.
So... Two YA authors edit an anthology largely populated by stories from YA authors - it's pretty inevitably going to end up marketed as YA.
I just have to ask, I keep seeing a thread of "finding oneself" as part of YA; did you guys find yourselves when you were teenagers? I'm in my late twenties and I'm still looking...
I didn't find myself as a teenager. In fact, I still haven't found myself. I'm starting to think that I must be hiding out somewhere with Jesus, because I still haven't found him, either.
I don't think anyone finds themselves as a teen, except in poorly-written YA. People tend to start looking then, though.
Hmm, we could discuss what YA SHOULD be all day long... but in the end, it IS what it is. Book marketed to young adults (11-15 years old ish, right?) SO, whatever is going to get them to shell out money and read this book, is likely whats going to be in it. As many have already mentioned this does follow a trend with some themes as that age range does tend to have trends (don't we all). Younger protagonists because who doesn't love to identify with the main character. Younger themes, because that is what they care about right now. And in general, lighter doses of more mature content as that might be what their parents or their own moral code will allow.
Past that, slapping a name on something like that gets you insta-cred so you are going to see your outliers, books that really are in no way YA but hope to be and make a few bucks off of it.
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/bo... This article perfectly sums up my thoughts on YA, and why I become annoyed when adults gush about books from that genre.
A friend showed me that article recently, and this was how I responded:What a snobbish article! My mother and I both enjoy reading not only YA but also children's books, alongside 'literary fiction' (a pretentious name for a genre, or so it seems to me, mostly because I've often heard people using it to raise books above other genres they may also belong to, which the user looks down upon, such as science fiction or crime), and any other books that look good to us. If the author of the article doesn't get anything out of YA that's fine, but there is no need to try and shame the rest of us that do.
Seriously, there is no reason to put someone down because you don't like what they are reading.
You missed the point then, Ruth. The author (ironically also a Ruth) said that if adults forgo 'adult' or 'literary' fiction for YA, they're cheating themselves of the experience and hiding in the world where we can ignore all that separates adult reasoning from a child's and simply immerse in that womb again. Ruth wrote that she has no problem with people reading YA, just that people who read it at the exclusivity of non-YA are reverting to childhood.
I'm not sure I agree with your reading of the article. It did not come across to me as balanced as you make out. The central argument of the article is that adults should feel embarrassed about reading YA, and it includes patronising lines such as "And if people are reading Eleanor & Park instead of watching Nashville or reading detective novels, so be it, I suppose", which you'll notice also puts detective novels and entertaining television programmes down on this list of things us adults should be embarrassed about.As for this group of people who read exclusively YA books and nothing else...I've yet to meet even one person who fits that description.
Ruth wrote: "What a snobbish article! My mother and I both enjoy reading not only YA but also children's books, alongside 'literary fiction' (a pretentious name for a genre, or so it seems to me, mostly because I've often heard people using it to raise books above other genres they may also belong to, which the user looks down upon, such as science fiction or crime), and any other books that look good to us. If the author of the article doesn't get anything out of YA that's fine, but there is no need to try and shame the rest of us that do.Seriously, there is no reason to put someone down because you don't like what they are reading. "
That was similar to my reaction as well, and I don't even read much YA.
Also that article is nothing but clickbait. Such a surprise from Slate! /sarcasm.
Anyone who tells me I should be embarrassed by my choice of reading material is both 1. an idiot and 2. trying to make him/her self feel superior, which automatically leads to the notion that he/she has low self esteem issues.If all your reading comprehension will allow is teen level reading, then good for you for reading. If you are capable of ingesting more complex literature, but choose to read a YA marketed novel for fun, entertainment, escapism, to reconnect with your childhood, to see what you missed out on, to be up to date with pop culture, or to scan it before you allow your children to read it - doesn't matter.
READING YA DOES NOT KILL BRAIN CELLS!
There are too many books out there to limit myself to only one type, one genre, one list of "must read to be considered an adult intellectual." There are several categories of books I don't choose to read because they don't appeal to me, but that doesn't make them any less of a valid way to engage your brain and imagination and emotions.
WHAT I READ DOES NOT DETERMINE MY ADULTHOOD OR MY LEVEL OF INTELLECT. How I live my life does.
Fuck that article and to hell with anyone who tries to belittle someone else for their choice of reading material.
The solution is simple; if you don't like YA, don't read it. But there's absolutely no reason to dump on those who do. It makes you an elitist troll. I see your article and raise you a Buzzfeed list:19 Truly Brilliant Young Adult Books You Can Enjoy At Any Age
Yawn, the same old defense from the same perspectives. So very entrenched, too. I should have known better than to stir this pot again.The only thing I'll address is that the article obviously is snobby and patronizing. Sure. But it also makes very poignant arguments that get rejected wholesale, without engaging their purpose.
Raise a buzzfeed, now there is some clickbait that triggers a never-ending cylce of (number) of (nouns) you won't believe (verb). Quite possibly a layer of Hell.
Funny that this thread should once again rise to my attention (I hadn't gotten the emails in a while) on the day I heard the latest S&L podcast. And, coupled with some of the other comments on here realize that it's part of the tension of categorization. I tend to like some tropes and dislike others, so I like the use of genres - this is sci fi - I will probably like it. This is romance - I most likely won't like it. So there's YA and it's (as I can see from the latest comments) both a ghetto and a badge of honor (maybe in a hipster way because of the ghetto?).
On the other side of the tension is what you do with books that skirt multiple genres. Anywhere you put it is going to keep some people from reading it because it's in the wrong genre. Sure, we should be open to everything. But life is too short and there are already more books than I could read in a lifetime even if someone paid me to read books every moment I wasn't doing something necessary for survival (sleep/eat). So what happens when there's a sci fi book that's high on romance or eros or YA themes? Where is it shelved and what does that mean?
(Like the woman crying at the suggestion that a book should be shelved sci fi)
If Ruth Graham had any valid points, they are completely overshadowed by her invective rhetoric. You should never be ashamed of reading anything. Ever.
What is YA?YA falls under the umbrella of children's literature in the publishing industry, but that is a little misleading. The supposed age range for YA is 12-19 but, in reality, adults make up roughly half of YA readership.
YA does not edit for content. A particular publisher may choose to edit their YA books for content but that is the exception, not the rule. Drugs, sex, violence, abuse... all these things are fair game, although not every YA author will choose to write about them. Big words and complex sentences are okay too. YA authors do not have to "dumb it down" for kids.
YA novels usually (but not always):
Feature only one or two POV characters
Have a word count between 55,000 and 85,000 words (more wiggle room here for established authors)
Are more straightforward thematically
Are simpler stylistically
YA novels always feature a teen POV character. I'm not aware of any YA novels with adult POV characters, although they may exist somewhere out there.
Manda wrote: "What is YA?YA falls under the umbrella of children's literature in the publishing industry, but that is a little misleading. The supposed age range for YA is 12-19 but, in reality, adults make up..."
Interesting point about the ages. In TV and movies we're supposed to like people older than us. Teens didn't like Saved By the Bell, elementary and middle school kids did. Shows for high school kids feature college kids. At what point does it end? It's not like 30 year olds necessarily like watching 40 year olds. I would guess it ends when being older doesn't confer any more privileges?
I would still think that if YA finishes at 19 that there would be literally young adult (18-25) characters as well. Or is what they're dealing with so out of the norm that the readers wouldn't be able to relate?
Dara wrote: "Really? Are We Still Genre Shaming People For The Books They Like?"Your link needs fixing
Don't talk about the elephant in the room, it might step on you. It's not about shaming people for what they like. It's a subtle point, and perhaps all the nuances were lost amid the knee-jerk response to the author's snobbish delivery. The subtle point is about WHY people like YA, and what sort of implications arise when people read YA exclusively as adults. Even in the snobbish article, the author declaims at least twice or thrice that there's nothing wrong with reading for purely entertainment sometimes.
This argument against YA fiction is the same that has been made against reading fantasy. That it is too escapist, too juvenile, and so on are arguments that just anger me. What a person reads is no one else’s business and people who judge others for their book choices should perhaps spend more time reading to occupy their time. To belittle the intelligence of people based solely on the book in their hand is just bizarre. Guess it was a slow news day for her.
As many of the now thousands of comments are pointing out - nobody knows anybody who is an adult that reads exclusively YA. I'm sure there are some, but really, why write about some tiny percentage? And where is her statistical backup? Where is there a link to a study that shows how much more well adjusted and intelligent and wise and happy and sane these people are who stick to "Adult Literature?" Nowhere.Therefore the basis for her argument is how she feels about it, without even really reading a wide variety of it herself. She prefers Adult Literature/classics. She finds the few examples of YA trite and simplistic and boring. She is an educated adult. Behold, YA is for kids and you adults should be embarrased. How very weak an argument.
She leaves out how adults already deal with real drama, real challenges both physical and mental, real LIFE, every day. Do they NEED to also find their reading challenging? Is there some prime directive I missed?
I think about some overworked, stressed out parents who might occasionally retreat into a room with a copy of The Hunger Games and a beer once a month for a completely escapist readathon. Or that daily commuter on the bus/train that reads only light stuff because it's impossible to focus during that time. And those people who had the "classics" poorly rammed down their throats in school who will never ever read anything challenging ever again.
But what if such a person reads only James Bond style spy thrillers? Or Harlequin Romances? Or Discworld? Or James Patterson? Or Danielle Steele? Shall they all hang their heads in shame?
Is reading a levelling up for people in the MMO of life, where people who read YA are stuck in the starting zone? "Ding! Finished the Dickens Quest, got a shiny new dagger!" "Ha, the Melville dungeon took me three tries!" "Ayn Rand Mountain had a crappy treasure =(" "Someday I'll finish Ulysses by Joyce and get the Epic Hammer of Self-righteousness, and then I'll go kill noobs in the starting area 'cuz BORED and no longer enjoy the game."
You do realize there is an excellent chance this writer would lump all SF/F in the same embarrassing pile as the YA? In fact might consider all "make believe, magic, and aliens," as childish, trashy, and a refusal to "Grow up, and read about grown-up things?"
"But, but," we splutter, "It's not all like that!"
Well, neither is YA.
Eric wrote: "Dara wrote: "Really? Are We Still Genre Shaming People For The Books They Like?"Your link needs fixing"
Link is fixed. Thanks for telling me.
Kenneth wrote: "The only thing I'll address is that the article obviously is snobby and patronizing. Sure. But it also makes very poignant arguments that get rejected wholesale, without engaging their purpose. "If a valid point cannot be made without being rude and insulting, it should not be surprising if that point is missed.
But I'm not entirely sure what point we are missing. Stripping the issue to the bare bones, if the article is simply saying that a person should not restrict themselves to one genre only, but read outside of their favourite type of literature in order to broaden the mind, then, sure, I would guess we can all agree with that point. It's good to read something different now and then. I certainly try to keep my reading varied, because sometimes that book a friend recommended that isn't really my sort of thing turns out to be brilliant.
If, however, the point being made is less general, and critical only of YA literature, then I cannot agree. The idea of 'adults' and 'young adults' is an artificial construction. Ageing is a continuous process based on our experiences, gathered slowly over time. Books that are shelved under YA are books that publishers or bookshops or whoever gets to decide these things feel will appeal to people in their late teens, or at least sell better under that label. Sometimes these books are written with that audience in mind. Sometimes they are not. In either case, this does not also mean they do not have something to offer someone in their 20's, 30's, 40's and so on.
Some of the issues in some YA books might be things some adult readers have already resolved in their own minds. Maybe those adults look back at themselves at that age and find their struggles amusing, and find they cannot engage with characters who are going through such difficulties. They might roll their eyes, as the author of the article says. They might enjoy the story anyway. They might not.
Another person might be in exactly the same boat as the person above, but instead of being amused, they might remember the pain they felt at the time and strongly empathise with the character. The book might prove an enjoyable trip down memory lane, might make the reader reflect on the choices they themselves made.
Someone else might find that some issues found in some YA novels are very relevant to their adult lives. I know a woman who came out as gay after denying it to herself for 36 years. Not all adults have everything figured out. There isn't, as far as I am aware, a magical age where a person suddenly has all the answers they struggled for as a child or teenager. Or if there is, I am 32, and still waiting for that magical moment of illumination.
Maybe some people do not even notice any angst or teen related issues (or maybe the YA novels they read contain few of these). Maybe they are merely engaging in an interesting and adventurous story. I quite enjoy the danger and trepidation present in stories that feature young protagonists who have to operate outside of adult rules, or stories in which characters feel powerless under the oppression of a controlling authority, which you find a lot in YA. You do also find this kind of thing in other kinds of literature, but since YA books are more likely to feature young protagonists, who are more likely to have to follow the rules of adults, this crops up more in this kind of literature.
There are surely many other reasons why adults will enjoy reading YA, and should not feel ashamed of doing so, any more than someone should feel ashamed of loving crime novels, romance novels, or, hell, sci fi novels.
Or was there some other point made that has been overlooked?
Kenneth wrote: "On this I agree. You want censorship? That's the job of parenting, not the artist. Should Michelangelo have painted a less-revealing version of the Sistine Chapel to appease certain age audiences?"I'm not sure I agree with that. Especially when you're talking about literature, you can't reasonably expect parents to - in the midst of everything else in their daily lives - read every single book their kid is interested in reading before they do.
Talk about turning kids off of reading, have their parents forbid them from reading any book they haven't - see how well that goes.
There's an expectation, for most parents, that when they buy a YA book for their kids, they're going to adhere to general, cultural standards and ideas of appropriateness. There may be some points of contention or objectionable material for that individual parent, but to write a novel about something like - in the OP's example - bestiality, pass it off as YA or children's literature, and then throw up your hands and say "Parents, you deal with it"... irresponsible.
Kenneth wrote: "... It's a subtle point, and perhaps all the nuances were lost amid the knee-jerk response to the author's snobbish delivery. The subtle point is about WHY people like YA, and what sort of implications arise when people read YA exclusively as adults...."That may be your subtle point but it was not the point of the author of that article. She pretty clearly wrote an article to troll the readers of it and generate some buzz. (Looking at her twitter feed shows that pretty clearly.) She succeeded. Kudos to her for being clever.
Michele wrote: "... You do realize there is an excellent chance this writer would lump all SF/F in the same embarrassing pile as the YA? In fact might consider all "make believe, magic, and aliens," as childish, trashy, and a refusal to "Grow up, and read about grown-up things?"..."
Oh, absolutely she would write the same thing about F&SF if she thought it would generate as much buzz as attacking YA. She took her argument to extremes to make a more entertaining article but I bet she feels that every book I read is just a guilty pleasure, with an emphasis on the "guilt", when compared to real literary fiction.
As someone who is better educated than she is, likes F&SF and doesn't much care for a lot of what is sold as mainstream fiction these days, I really don't care what she thinks of my reading habits.
Speaking of that Slate article, Joe Abercrombie just went off on it on Twitter. @LordGrimdark
Mary, fantasy has grown to be a genre with complex social insight and a lasting tradition of challenging the status quo, just like SF has. It may contain escapism and juvenile dreams, but it also pushes the boundaries of critical thinking at times. The comparison to YA is an incomplete one. What you're comparing is actually the old mainstream view of what fantasy was to YA.Speaking of Joe Abercrombie, I've no interest in Mr. Grimdark and imagine he's defending his readership demographic for extra points.
Kenneth, the last thing this genre, or its readership, needs is some insufferable, pseudo-enlightened hipster going around telling people what they're allowed to enjoy.
Kenneth wrote: "Mary, fantasy has grown to be a genre with complex social insight and a lasting tradition of challenging the status quo, just like SF has. It may contain escapism and juvenile dreams, but it also pushes the boundaries of critical thinking at times."Wait, what? Are you saying it is only valid to read science fiction and fantasy if it 'pushes the boundaries of critical thinking'? Can't people just read it for fun? No?
I'm not entirely sure that what 'pushes the boundaries of critical thinking' means, by the way. My understanding of critical thinking is that it is a way of viewing a thing with a critical eye, and as such can be applied to anything, even escapism and juvenile dreams. I mean, don't you used critical thinking in order to interpret a text, any text? Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just not sure what you mean.
Regardless, you seem to be suggesting that science fiction and fantasy are capable of this, but YA books are not, based on the argument that YA is a newer genre and hasn't proved itself of being worthy yet, unlike science fiction and fantasy, which you feel have. So...we should be embarrassed to read YA until it has been around for as long as science fiction and fantasy have now, and then we can look back on the view that we should be embarrassed by YA as being dated? But isn't YA only new as a marketing thing? Its not like no one wrote books with teen protagonists until recently.
I'm sorry, but I really can't understand what your argument is.
I was reading the food menu at a brewery last night, but found that it wasn't sufficiently pushing the boundaries of my critical thinking. Threw that garbage in the trash.
I'm not a YA reader unless you count the four shonen manga I read each week, mainly because I find YA books annoying to the point of unreadable not that there haven't been exceptions.I'd say YA is defined like others have said as stories about teens facing teen issues such love, family, acceptance, and their place in the the world. A YA book is typically heavy on angst, and light on depth where all the problems are straight forward and fairly easy to resolve in the end. Oh and paranormal YA always has girl falling in love with a much older man who just looks like a teenager and has probably killed countless people, which just a really messed up relationship if you think about it.
I don't have a problem with anyone reading YA I you enjoy something embrace it whole heartedly you shouldn't be shamed into the closet because what you like. I enjoy, scifi and fantasy, noir films, anime, board games, and dancing to four in the morning in a sweaty club to pulse pounding techno beats none of which I'm ashamed of.
I think the mentioned article is just looking to create buzz. The author is just attacking YA books because they don't like them and knows that it will get attention thus boosting her profile. Her main points about YA seem to be that is escapist, enjoyable, and requires the reader to not think critically which you could say the same about just about every other form of entertainment. Seen a movie before? Or a tv show? Think critically about them and chances are you'll find it all falls apart.
What about books targeted and read almost exclusively by teenagers are they YA or are they given a pass? I'm talking about books like To Kill a Mockingbird, Treasure Island anything by Shakespeare, Jules Vern, or Dickens?
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
To Kill a Mockingbird (other topics)Treasure Island (other topics)
Dearly, Departed (other topics)
Zombies Vs. Unicorns (other topics)
Nation (other topics)
I ask because Zombies vs Unicorns, despite being YA seems to have some adult stuff. I'm no prude (in other words this stuff doesn't bother me as a reader), but it appears we seem to have an issue with book ratings v movies, TV, and video games. As far as I can tell there are children's books, YA books, and then regular books. Unicorns v Zombies has, throughout the stories in the anthology: mention of erections, bestiality, the word "fuck", and a couple other things.
Regular books rarely do more than acknowledge that characters have or had sex. (A strange exception seems to be sci fi which seems to find sex scenes obligatory in a way I haven't seen in other fiction) And more regular books rarely have much profanity.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really see the dividing line. So what makes a YA book?
As a side note, as a voracious reader, I read both "adult" and YA books starting around middle school. As I note above, most of the time there was nothing especially scandalous about the adult books. The YA books, however, sometimes did present material before I was ready to process it. There's still one book in particular whose name I don't remember that left quite an impression on me and still bugs me. It seems that YA is always purposely trying to push the envelope (like those 1970s YA books that were edgy for mentioning that girls got periods. Oh, scandalous!) while regular fiction is just content to tell a story.