Space Opera Fans discussion
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What is Space Opera?
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It’s very much “Hunger Games on Mars.”
I really didn’t like Red Rising and found the first person narrative to be very repetitive.
Does it count as a space opera if it's all one planet??? I don't know why but I associate space opera with at least some space travel.
Kirsten wrote: "Does it count as a space opera if it's all one planet??? I don't know why but I associate space opera with at least some space travel."Definitely not Space Opera. It’s not even Planetary Romance because that implies a non-native visiting said planet. It doesn’t count if the protagonist lives there.
The only reason this came up is because Ghost commented on the wrong thread. He meant to post in the “I’m addicted” thread.
Nah, there's plenty of planetary romance with native protagonists For instance, Burroughs did some in his Barsoom series.
Mary wrote: "Nah, there's plenty of planetary romance with native protagonists For instance, Burroughs did some in his Barsoom series."John Carter is from Earth, though. The kid in Red Rising is just a miner on Mars.
I’ve only read the first book and it’s strongly implied in that one there will be space fleet actions later, but I don’t know if that’s the case. If so, then the *series* would be Space Opera. Just not that first book taken by itself.
Trike wrote: "Mary wrote: "Nah, there's plenty of planetary romance with native protagonists For instance, Burroughs did some in his Barsoom series."John Carter is from Earth, though..."
And not the protagonist. Frequently.
Now I've properly introduced myself, can I dig up this thread to ask a question? I love Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth series, despite the flaws. He's considered a space opera author, but *technically*, in the Commonwealth series, there are no space ships and no space travel (or final battles). The stable wormhole technology moves people from destination to destination, even if that destination is across the galaxy.
In your mind, does that make it a planetary romance? Or do the many planets keep it in space opera?
There's even room to argue it's not space opera at all, except for the epic quality and galaxy-spanning-stakes.
Thanks!
Cam
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Case in point: we read Dune a while back. I’d consider it planetary romance outside this group, but fair game here.
Teresa wrote: "Are you wanting some official outside this group definition or just what we allow in this group for our group reads?Case in point: we read Dune a while back. I’d consider it planetary romance out..."
I think I was looking for both. Question answered, thanks!
Cam
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Was a spaceship (at least a shuttle or flying saucer) involved ? Bare minimum, getting the people to the planet (so Pern series is marginal) and the civilization still has technology (steam punk is out)
Using some wormhole thing still involves some travel in space. Some transporter gadget that goes directly from one planet to another would have to be handled on a case by case basis. I’d probably allow Heinlein’s Tunnel in the Sky if two or more people wanted it.
Most of what I have read that is listed on my books is space opera. Sometimes it's technology driven such as the Aeon 14 universe; sometimes it is what we consider magic mixed in with spaceships such as Glynn Stewart's Starship Mage (where maybe the past history will eventually connect to gene manipulation); sometimes it is wrapped into finding alien tech and making use of it - Jucha's Pyrean's and Silver Ship series; and I can go on. But they all have the common themes of humanoids, aliens, space travel by ship or other unique but mechanical methods, multiple planets and universes, confrontation with bad guys, and in the end the good guys win long enough to be faced with a new challenge. It is not the concepts that are new, but the application of those concepts combined with character and world building that makes those concepts fresh. Sometimes it is the mixture of science and magic that makes it unique. I don't think it's possible to write science fiction "from whole cloth" in today's world. Readers simply know too much and have been exposed to such a variety of ideas from Verne's submarine to Star Trek's transporters.
Cameron wrote: "I love Peter F. Hamilton's Commonwealth series, despite the flaws. He's considered a space opera author, but *technically*, in the Commonwealth series, there are no space ships and no space travel (or final battles). The stable wormhole technology moves people from destination to destination, even if that destination is across the galaxy.In your mind, does that make it a planetary romance? Or do the many planets keep it in space opera?"
I don’t think they’re Space Opera for the reasons you describe. (I’ve only read one or two of his books.)
It’s kind of like calling Some Like It Hot or Sister Act “gangster movies”. Yes, the main characters of both films go into hiding because they are witnesses to organized crime murders and there’s a chase scene at the end of both films as they run from the gangsters, but neither story is actually *about* the criminal underworld. That element is just used to kick off the story.
Teresa wrote: "General rule of thumb for discussion in this group:
Was a spaceship (at least a shuttle or flying saucer) involved ? Bare minimum, getting the people to the planet (so Pern series is marginal) and ..."
I don’t know how Pern could possibly be under the Space Opera umbrella. I’ve read at least a dozen books of that series and I think a spaceship only shows up in one prequel, and then it’s just in the background. I don’t think it even moves.
By contrast, I wouldn’t have any problem considering Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame as Space Operas. They both feature spaceships prominently and a significant amount of the story takes place on spaceships, not just as transportation but also for major plot and character moments.
I think Pern is unique in being in the space opera category. There are books written after the Dragonriders of Pern that focus on landing on the planet and setting up a society and the discovery of the unexpected deadly threads. Timeline wise they are in the past. Then there are books who are on the timeline after the original novel where they go into space, land on the ship, use it and the dragons to end the problem of thread forever in which dragons and riders travel to another planet. Personally, I wouldn't put it in the space opera genre, but it could be considered as qualifying based on those things. Having said that, the Pern books are at the top 10 of my list of alltime favorite sci fi and I have read the series numerous times.
I haven't read the Commonwealth series. I don't like romance as a major plot component in any of the genres I prefer - be in sci fi, mystery, or thriller. I can't really comment on romance in space opera because if it is advertised as a romance, I avoid it.
There are spaceships, they just aren't used for their original purpose so thoroughly that everyone on Pern has forgotten it.
I made a video to try to explain my take on SF sub-genres, including (my beloved) space opera…https://youtu.be/W2hy0rfm2K0?si=mTKU4...
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https://youtu.be/W2hy0rfm2K0?si=mTKU4..."
Interesting.
Betsy wrote: "Philip wrote: "I made a video to try to explain my take on SF sub-genres, including (my beloved) space opera…https://youtu.be/W2hy0rfm2K0?si=mTKU4..."
Interesting."
Some interesting comments, too.
At one point, stories that focused more on sweeping civilizations and characters (like Dune mentioned by Cari) were labeled space opera. I've encountered a dizzying number of competing definitions these days. Question to the group: If a novel has only one scene in space and the rest on a planet but travel between planets exists, is it space opera? Or maybe secondary world science ficiton?
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I had never heard of the term space opera until I wrote The Assentia Series and someone told me that Space Opera was what I had written. LOL I thought I was just writing a sci fi romance series. So for me, space opera is multiple characters working together to solve a problem that affects many races in a wide-sweeping galaxy. Lots of steamy scenes and hopefully a HEA at the end!
I have just read Craig Alanson's Expeditionary Force, what a ride! Great Space Opera, read my review.
Paul wrote: "I have just read Craig Alanson's Expeditionary Force, what a ride! Great Space Opera, read my review."Paul a suggestion. Next time how about posting a link to your review. It makes it easier for us to find it. Mind you if a book only has a couple of reviews it isn't so bad, but those books with dozens (or more) reviews take a bit of effort to find one specific one.
After reading through this thread again, it seems my perception of what qualifies as Space Opera may not quite fit the definition. Planetary Romance might be a better description, but I've yet to come across that category on Amazon. To me the mention of Space Opera conjures up images of laser guns, damsels in distress, and a collection of bizarre alien creatures. (Bonus points for fish bowl space helmets.) But that perception was probably influenced by old book covers, pulp Science Fiction magazines, comic books and various other sources. Those of us who frequented arcades in the '80s may remember this little gem, which incorporates much of what I envision when I think of Space Opera://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlQrjjHW8IwOther things I think of as being Space Opera include Star Trek TOS, Lost in Space, and the Flash Gordon movie from 1980. As Trike mentioned, the Alien movies fit better in the horror genre, at least if we take them individually. But when I consider the three Ridley Scott films collectively, I might consider the franchise as a whole to be a Space Opera series, albeit a very dark one.
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I suspect, Linn, that in this group we encompass a wide range of views about what Space Opera is - when I think of Space Opera, I think of authors like Iain M Banks, John Scalzi, Peter Hamilton, and Ann Leckie. The variety of authors and styles, including some of its fun "retro" aspects, help make the genre so enjoyable. And all of us are made welcome in this group.
Linn wrote: "After reading through this thread again, it seems my perception of what qualifies as Space Opera may not quite fit the definition. Planetary Romance might be a better description, but I've yet to c..."Hi Linn, I have been reading Space Opera for over 50 years, the definitions, tropes, and story lines have significantly evolved in that time. What you describe as laser guns and damsels in distress definitely belong to the 1920's - 1950's. Star Trek, Flash Gordon and Lost In Space also belong to this period as TV & The Movies tend to reflect much earlier work. Dune is from the early 60's and we are still seeing this in TV & movies right up to the present.
Ian M Banks, Peter Hamilton, Alistair Reynolds and other contemporary writers from the period 1990 - present are relatively yet to be explored on the screen. Revelation Space, Chasm City, Consider Phlebas, Pandoras Star, Old Man's War, The Mercy of Gods, are all great examples of great modern Space Opera that I would love to see at the cinema.
C. John wrote: "Paul wrote: "I have just read Craig Alanson's Expeditionary Force, what a ride! Great Space Opera, read my review."Paul a suggestion. Next time how about posting a link to your review. It makes i..."
Hi John, good idea! It is only a small review but here you are (hope this works, I don't usually post links)
Mod
1. In your browser, on the page with your review, tap in the address bar and copy the value. Then paste the value here, in a comment.
2. On the page with your review, drag over the text of the review and copy it. On a PC that’s Ctrl-C, on mobile you should have opens for Select and Copy. Then come here and paste in a comment. That gives us the text of the review instead of a link.
Hi Teresa, thank youI can cut and paste the text thats easy but the link didn't seem to work, let me try again......
This
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
or this
Columbus Day by Craig AlansonMy rating: 4 of 5 stars
This book is great fun, really enjoyed the read. This is not going to win the Nobel prize for literature but perfect for a space opera adventure (with a very American feel). Many of the typical tropes are there alien invasion, space pirates, artificial intelligence, aliens crash landing, first contact, wormholes, what a ride!
View all my reviews
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I am old enough that when I think of Space Opera the authors I think of are E. E. "Doc" Smith and Edmond Hamilton among others. I daresay the Perry Rhodan series can also be considered Space Opera.
John wrote: "I suspect, Linn, that in this group we encompass a wide range of views about what Space Opera is - when I think of Space Opera, I think of authors like Iain M Banks, John Scalzi, Peter Hamilton, and Ann Leckie. The variety of authors and styles, including some of its fun "retro" aspects, help make the genre so enjoyable. And all of us are made welcome in this group."Yes, the definition accepted here is quite broad, which is not a bad thing in my view, since some stories aren't easy to classify. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Dune is probably one of those stories. Is it Space Opera? Maybe, maybe not. But as Homer Simpson said at the end of the Time Traveling Toaster episode... "Close enough."
Paul wrote: "Ian M Banks, Peter Hamilton, Alistair Reynolds and other contemporary writers from the period 1990 - present are relatively yet to be explored on the screen. Revelation Space, Chasm City, Consider Phlebas, Pandoras Star, Old Man's War, The Mercy of Gods, are all great examples of great modern Space Opera that I would love to see at the cinema."Sadly you may have a long wait. People have been trying to turn Rendezvous with Rama into a movie for many years now, and to my knowledge it still hasn't gotten off the ground. (Although to be honest, I found that book to be quite boring myself.) But as far as modern Science Fiction goes, I'm a little surprised we haven't seen an Honor Harrington film yet. You'd think someone would be all over that.
Kara wrote: "Question to the group: If a novel has only one scene in space and the rest on a planet but travel between planets exists, is it space opera? Or maybe secondary world science ficiton?"For books included in this group, then yes, that would be Space Opera. From a purely academic view outside this book group then I’d label that Planetary Romance. (Lately I’ve been pushing the label “Planetary Adventure” instead, since the definition of “Romance” has shifted over the past century.)
Secondary World fiction is most commonly (but not exclusively) used in Fantasy and it typically takes place on an entirely different world from our own, with no connection between them. Meaning no shared history or travel. So Lord of the Rings, Mistborn and Game of Thrones are Secondary World, but Narnia, Oz, and Wonderland aren’t. Those latter three would be Portal Fiction.
Books like Conan the Barbarian or Thongor, on the third hand, take place in an imaginary past of our world, so it is neither Secondary World nor Portal Fantasy, it’s just Fantasy. In Conan’s case, Sword & Sorcery. Which would also include Brak the Barbarian by John Jakes and Thundarr the Barbarian.
Side note: stories can occupy more than one subgenre. Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are both Sword & Sorcery and Portal Fiction. And Science Fantasy, since they ultimately team up with a zookeeper who uses a spaceship to travel between universes. Superhero comics are pretty much a grab bag of all the genres. (One of the reasons I find them so enjoyable.)
Secondary World Science Fiction is less common but plenty of examples exist, the biggest being Star Wars.
A really unusual example is the book The Traitor Baru Cormorant in that it takes place on a Secondary World but has no supernatural or science fictional elements. The lack of magic led me to ultimately classify it as Science Fiction due to taking place in another universe. (Full disclosure: I did not like the book, but it’s certainly unique. If it had also been written in second person it would be the ultimate literary unicorn.)
That was long, sorry. It’s my favorite subject. I’m a dork.
C. John wrote: "I am old enough that when I think of Space Opera the authors I think of are E. E. "Doc" Smith and Edmond Hamilton among others. I daresay the Perry Rhodan series can also be considered Space Opera."I know those authors too, I was never a big fan though, I started with Edgar Rice Burroughs's Mars, Venus, Pellucidar series, the borrowers, and Danny Dunn time traveller before I found Space Opera. Probably the first Space Opera I was reading was Perry Rhodan, I loved that series, must of read 30+ episodes by my early teens. It wasn't long before I was reading Clarke and Asimov.
Linn wrote: "Paul wrote: "Ian M Banks, Peter Hamilton, Alistair Reynolds and other contemporary writers from the period 1990 - present are relatively yet to be explored on the screen. Revelation Space, Chasm Ci..."You are right, it seems to take the movie moguls an incredibly long time to transfer great books to the screen. RAMA is in my top 10 of all time but considering the passage of time I imagine it is a very different read for modern readers, I read this in the 70's. I hope they don't muck it up when it eventually appears. I am disappointed with FOUNDATION on Apple TV it just doesn't "feel" like the book.
Trike wrote: "Kara wrote: "Question to the group: If a novel has only one scene in space and the rest on a planet but travel between planets exists, is it space opera? Or maybe secondary world science ficiton?"..."
Very interesting Trike.
Labels, sub-genres, etc are an intriguing area. Personally I call Star Wars Science Fantasy but still feel Dune fits into Science Fiction even though they both have mystical/religeous elements.
Space Opera to me is a story with a setting in deep space outside of the Solar System. On my good reads I even have a shelf for "Solar System" and try and keep these separate from Space Opera - not that my book keeping is that great but thats my intent - If a story takes place on Earth (typically some small town in IDAHO) I shelve these as "Backyard SF" a lot of Clifford D Simak's stories are backyard SF!
How would you categorize Monkey Planet by Pierre Boule?
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Paul wrote: "Dune fits into Science Fiction even though they both have mystical/religeous elements.…
If a story takes place on Earth (typically some small town in IDAHO)"
Like say, Duncan, Idaho?
😁
Kara wrote: "At one point, stories that focused more on sweeping civilizations and characters (like Dune mentioned by Cari) were labeled space opera. I've encountered a dizzying number of competing definitions ..."Thank you! That helps. :)
Teresa wrote: "For the purposes of this group, as long as there’s at least one scene set on a spaceship or space station, it counts as space opera. We use a very loose definition, and sometimes we even accept boo..."❤️
Linn wrote: "Paul wrote: "Ian M Banks, Peter Hamilton, Alistair Reynolds and other contemporary writers from the period 1990 - present are relatively yet to be explored on the screen. Revelation Space, Chasm Ci..."Love this! Thank you!
Trike wrote: "Paul wrote: "Dune fits into Science Fiction even though they both have mystical/religeous elements.…
If a story takes place on Earth (typically some small town in IDAHO)"
Like say, Duncan, Ida..."
:-)
Space Opera Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Rising Storm (other topics)Livesuit (other topics)
The Traitor Baru Cormorant (other topics)
Red Rising (other topics)
Moon Rising (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
James S.A. Corey (other topics)Miles Phoenix (other topics)
Nathan Lowell (other topics)
A. Bertram Chandler (other topics)
Leigh Brackett (other topics)
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Oh and I bought used copies of Exodus Tower and Plague Forge fror the Dire Earth trilogy. Hope the first book, Darwin Elevator is good, I bought it ages ago and s..."
Sounded like typical YA dystopia to me. If you look at Red Rising you'll find many Goodreads members shelved it as YA. Library Journal and Kirkus both compare it Hunger Games.