Bright Young Things discussion
Substance Reads (1900-1945)
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The Ulysses Challenge!
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Just posted in another group about finally tackling this, I'll be attempting it after Easter I think
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It's on my shelf so you never know. Maybe a page a day?
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...that's the spirit! (...and not far from the truth, it sometimes took me that long to master a page! but very worth it when I did!)
And a big thank you to Ally for this organizational effort. A few days ago I offered to write some general questions of the sort Ally suggests in her first post. I did manage to get some issues down on the Telemachiad -- the first three episodes -- they are in the form of moderator-type questions rather than comments, which may not be helpful, but nothing risked... etc. I've experimented with links to the individual episode threads at the end of the post.Some general questions for the reading of Ulysses
I The Telemachiad – on method and significance
1. For each episode there is a set of motifs: art, symbol, technic. For the first episode these are theology, air, narrative. For the second: history, horse, catechism. And for the third: philology, tide, monologue. Later episodes will have “color” and “organ” associations as well. You can find these associations in Stuart Gilbert’s guide (or crib), which was prepared with Joyce’s co-operation, so we know that these are not just critics’ handy explications. But, considering that Joyce never explicitly included them in the text, what purpose do these motifs serve?
What significance might be attached to air, or the tide, just now, at the beginning?
2. One of the categories, technic, refers to narrative method. Given that Joyce will be using a different method for each episode, we might expect some importance to his choices. So he begins by telling the story in the usual way – how is this worthy of note? Catechism seems to fit the Nestor episode reasonably well, considering Stephen’s inclination to dogma. And it makes sense that a man walking alone on the beach pondering his condition might provide us a monologue. What do you think is going on here? What is the point of this?
3. Stephen’s monologue introduces a method which will exfoliate greatly with Bloom and become positively luxuriant with Molly’s final episode. Joyce marks ordinary reported speech (words spoken out loud by one character and heard by another) with an initial dash. So what should we make of the many passages which have the same speech-like quality but are not so marked? Rather than be told that Stephen is thinking such and such, we are simply presented with the thought itself. In the first episode we stood apart from events, seeing them as outside observers. By the third episode we are completely confined to what Stephen sees, experiences, thinks. A century on, and despite Joyce’s central importance to Modernism, this is still not a common procedure. Do you have any difficulty decoding what you read? Is it safe to take Stephen’s perceptions and interpretations as neutral?
4. Stephen Dedalus is the main character in Joyce’s previous book A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man and possibly the narrator of the first three stories in Dubliners. Is it important to know this? What is the significance of his name, considering he is, in Ulysses, the proxy of Telemachus? Telemachus went out in search of his father, in part because of Penelope’s crowd of suitors. As Bloom is the proxy for Ulysses he is symbolically the father of Dedalus. What is Stephen looking for which might be the equivalent of a father? Who are the suitors, and where is Penelope to be found here at the beginning? Religion, fervor and apostasy, doctrine and belief, the difficult psychology of the family are embedded in the narrative through the character of Stephen Dedalus. These are powerful associations, and create a heavy emotional burden for Stephen to carry. What do you think of Stephen? Is he up to it?
5. We quickly learn, I think, that everything in this book is significant in some way, perhaps several ways. Given this matter of signification, what emphasis do you attach to the old milkwoman, to the Martello tower in which they live, to the drowned person? In what way is it important that Nestor, a garrulous man, self-involved and not very helpful, is associated in Ulysses with history and teaching? What other elements do you see as in need of explication?
6. Given these dense webs of signification, symbol, motif, and theme the interpretation of Ulysses can quickly come to seem a game and the book a sandbox. Many readings are possible, depending on what elements of the story one regards as significant or in need of explanation. As an individual reader, what strikes you particularly about this opening section as likely to be important to you as you read on?
7. All this aside, the basic framework of the story is actually quite simple. An ordinary man leaves home to go about his business for the day. He has a good deal on his mind besides work, including the funeral of a friend and the affair his wife is conducting while he is out. At the end of the day he encounters a troubled young man, with whom he spends the evening. The two discover some mutual affinities, and being both drunk, the older man offers to put the younger one up for the night. The story ends with the man returned home to his bed. His wife reflects on the circumstances of their life together.
Do you like these people? Do you find their way of living interesting? Are you willing to put up with their faults, shortcomings, irritating eccentricities? What do you make of Buck Mulligan and his relationship to Stephen? Here, at the beginning, do you feel invited in, as if to a family dinner, or set down at a cocktail party among strangers?
Episode 1: Telemachus
Episode 2: Nestor
Episode 3: Proteus
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I really should be taking care of business, but here are two questions about the main part of the novel which begins with episode 4 -- I can't resist. They have to do with exposing the richness and depth of the story -- the verisimilitude, the truth, of their lives, which is for me its major attraction. 1: Calypso, the fourth episode, introduces Leopold Bloom, the Ulysses proxy of the story. In the Greek original, Ulysses was depicted by his fellow Greeks as clever and sly, a small man, quite unlike the hero as exemplified by Achilles. Bloom is introduced ceremonially, as Dedalus was in the first episode (Stately, plump Buck Mulligan came from the stairhead, bearing a bowl of lather on which a mirror and a razor lay crossed.) Symbolic, hieratic language and objects. What do the many parallels between the two invocations tell us about Bloom and about the themes to come?
2: Pay attention to the cat. What does she have to tell us? Later on Bloom will stop to buy a bar of soap. As the tale progresses, pay attention to the soap. Is there a significance to the humbleness of these things?
There is, I think, a somewhat indirect relationship between the nominal Greek myth and the actual tale. I believe this is true of the Telemachiad, and at the beginning of the main section there is Calypso, a nymph who detains Ulysses and stalls his journey for years. Eh? As you move along though the story there will be similar puzzlements which I think add depth and subtlety to the framework of the tale, which threatens to be donnish. What do you think? Are these elements a distraction, an annoyance, a piece of intellectual swagger? Or something more positive? What?
I see that I said I had two questions and then posed three. Clearly I am much in thrall to this book.
I'll try it out. I'm reading Women in Love for a class right now, but Ulysses. Yes. I'll give it a whirl.
I like the determination behind Nigeyb's suggestion, "a page a day?"However, the way I got through this book was kind of by "surfing" it--I read every word, but when I hit the parts I totally couldn't understand, I just kept flowing with it until I hit a part I could.
You get the flow, at least, that way.
Shelley
http://dustbowlstory.wordpress.com
^ Still mulling over if and when to start. My previous forays into the world of Joyce were more tedious than rewarding.There's so many other books that I really want to read and, if I'm honest, I think I'll enjoy more and get more out of. I'd only be reading it because I feel I should rather than because I really want to.
"He knew everything about literature except how to enjoy it"
Well, I can't agree with Nigeyeb on these points. I think Shelley has the right idea -- go with it. I wonder how Faulkner, James, and Proust rate against Joyce -- three more authors thought to be difficult. Would it be interesting to have a discussion about what makes Joyce unenjoyable? I don't suppose we want to be reading dull books on Goodreads... (:>
Personally, I think we should try some Gertrude Stein. At least Joyce still uses nouns.
Thanks Charles. I think this comes down to personal taste and preferences. I just reread my review of 'The Portrait of an Artist...', a book I notice you rated five stars. I didn't enjoy it. Here's part of my review..."I think the book is probably of greatest interest to scholars and academics and those interested in the history of literature (and in particular the modernist phase). I'd liken it to experimental music whilst it makes an important statement it doesn't necessarily make for a good listen, or in this case a good read. The lengthy university conversations towards the end of the book are particularly tedious. I'm unsure what Joyce was trying to say, and wonder about the point of the book."
Put more simply I suspect I don't have the time, patience or inclination to slog through something that will most likely frustrate and annoy me. Many people have the requisite inclination and temperament, and so derive great pleasure and satisfaction form the experience. I feel reasonably confident that I am not that type of reader.
That all said, I do have it on my shelf so perhaps might try 20 minutes just to see how I get on with it.
Woah, there are individual pages for comments about the episodes! I'm so silly. This is awesome.
Zachary wrote: "I just finished the first episode! And initial thoughts:"My reply continued episode 3
Indeed. I just wanted to get some thoughts out before I continued on, and I thought your topics for discussion were pretty good. I believe that it is possible to discuss a chapter, or even a paragraph in great detail before a book is finished. At least that was my creed in high school and university. lol
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I was told to give my input on the novel, so I will.I'm not exactly sure which episode you guys are on, but this is what I got from Ulysses....
As a whole, the work is basically a telling of one day (June 16, 1904) in Dublin Ireland. It follows the lives of Leopold Bloom and Stephen Dedalus as they make their way around Dublin recording the various things that they do and telling of the various people they encounter. The novel really centers around the meeting of these two individuals, but that isn't all the work is about. Really, Ulysses is a work of fiction that, at it's core is about different perspectives, hints the usage of different literary techniques, and the effect that a particular technique has on the mind of a reader. Joyce was a master of the English language. I'm almost certain that no other author has ever come close to mastering the art of word placement; equipped with the capability of conquering a word; having it do exactly what the author wants it to do. The sentences in this novel breath with life! The work itself is practically a living organism! That's simply based upon the fact that Joyce spent so much time, energy and knowledge putting this piece together, having everything fit together perfectly, only to have everything not exactly fit together in the end. But that's life! Which is a word that can capture what Ulysses is... LIFE!
Of all the modernist novels, Joyce's Ulysses is the only one where I can honestly say that when I finished it, I put it down and smiled. I felt so accomplished, so happy, so insightful. Reading it made me experience something I never had before in a book. It was so different, so fun, so smart, so carefully constructed. One must always speak of this novel with a tone of the upmost respect, for it truly is a landmark in fiction as well as a masterpiece... If you're having trouble with getting through an episode, that's okay! Take a breather, look up a help guide, get as much information you can on the background of the episode so that you'll be able to see the novel from... A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE. But I beg of you, don't give up, push through, set goals for yourself. Ulysses is a tough read, but it's well worth it, finish it, so that you'll get to those final words and when it's finally over, you'll close the book, with a smile on your face and a twinkle in your eye uttering the words, yes, yes ,yes.
As Molly Bloom famously says at the end -- yes.I read this book on the bus on the way to work (I was a salesman in a hardware store at the time) and in the basement on lunch break, under a single bare lightbulb, between the pipe threader and the shade cutter. I ate it up. It went down like pizza and beer. I didn't stop to think about it until afterward.
Pay attention to the cat? I always do!The cat shows us that Bloom is friendly, curious, a bit of a scientific thinker, that he has a playful relationship with her but that he also can stand back a bit and analyze the "animal" nature of the cat. They have a real give and take. They banter back and forth---at least that is how I see it. Bloom is curious, kind, and he bends down and informs her that he has milk for her. Although he calls her "cruel" and "stupid" he also loves to provide for her and he calls her "pussens".
Could she be a miniature glimpse of his relationship with Molly?
A touch I like is Bloom's invention of a new onomatopoeia for one of the noises a cat makes.Bloom is an interesting father-figure -- non-judgmental in the way we usually mean, but still not put off from having opinions. Fallible, self-indulgent, but also self-aware and forgiving -- but not morally lax (unlike what was alleged at the censorship trial -- the censors wanted something rather different.)
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I just read the best book I've read in a long time: Kevin Birmingham's new one, The Most Dangerous Book.It's astonishing how hard Joyce fought, and how long, to produce Ulysses, and how many other people took major risks--time, money, reputation-- to try to help that book come to light.
Against all odds. For years. And they finally won.
Shelley
http://dustbowlstory.wordpress.com
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Nigeyb wrote: "Thanks Charles. I think this comes down to personal taste and preferences. I just reread my review of 'The Portrait of an Artist...', a book I notice you rated five stars. I didn't enjoy it. Here's..."Well, let me see. An important moment in the beginning of Ulysses is when Buck Mulligan accuses Stephen of being Jesuitical for refusing to kneel at his mother's deathbed as she asked. The actual incident occurs in Portrait of the Artist and is through Ulysses as an indicator of Stephen's spiritual malaise which ultimately helps to forge the bond between him and Bloom and establish his as the spiritual son of Bloom. His malaise is eased and we have a judgement of Bloom which is both moral and practical help in how to live. Sorry if all this is a spoiler, but the question is this: given the importance of the refusal to kneel, how should this incident be told? Matter-of-fact? With mixed sympathy and (Mulligan's) scorn? Cautiously? Judgmentally? You see the problem. There is a lot of smbiguity here, and a lot of the mixed emotions you yourself would feel at the death of your own mother, especially if you had been spiritually at war with her all your life and you felt your own integrity bound up. This story is not going to be told simply and the reader may expect to work for its insights.
The question here is, is it worth it? If so, what's the payoff? If not, why?
A lot of writers and professional readers would simply bypass those questions out of admiration and awe at Joyce's tour de force and mastery. Are these things of value to ordinary readers?
Zachary wrote: "Personally, I think we should try some Gertrude Stein. At least Joyce still uses nouns."I recommend a murder mystery, Blood on the Dining Room Floor.
There is a free audio book streaming edition of this book https://archive.org/details/Ulysses-A... which would probably clarify some people's reading by making the language more approachable. Try it.
Anyhow I'm in sympathy. Zachary said he was deep in Women In Love. Lawrence is an author I wouldn't read if I hadn't been made to in graduate school. Hardy, also. Having done so I feel enriched, but...
Jennifer W wrote: "Anyone dare to resolve to read this book in the new year? ;)"I'm in, but with a lot of personal issues just now I would be erratic. Also, I tend to be irritable at some issues so I will have to watch my tongue.
I've been in several other discussions of this book and they tend to bog down in the many recondite but also interesting allusions. I suggest that the right way to read it is to go with the flow, elucidating what actually happens, isolate the allusions to amo separate thread, and read quickly. Superficially, if you like, but the book is much easier to comprehend when you have acquired its essentials.
Charles wrote: "There is a free audio book streaming edition of this book https://archive.org/details/Ulysses-A... which would probably clarify some people's reading by making the language more approachable. ..."That sounds great. I just listened to a couple of minutes of Telemachus.
I know that I was finding it much easier to read the second time round. I think I may have made it to Chapter 4. And then I set it down. And subsequently had to move. I think now the book is in the garage, along with a bunch of others.
I read two of Joyce's works, Dubliners and Portrait about 20 years, liked them but never got around to reading this one so count me in.
Yes Ally, I'm keen delve into Ulysses again. I'll read all the messages and links in this thread and reread my notes and quotes from the book. I sometimes return to the book and read a section.I'll follow this thread with interest. Thanks, Ally.
Charles wrote: "Nigeyb wrote: "Thanks Charles. I think this comes down to personal taste and preferences. I just reread my review of 'The Portrait of an Artist...', a book I notice you rated five stars. I didn't e..."Hey Charles - not that it matters much but I'm curious about something you said. If I read it correctly your saying that the incident with Stephan's dying mother occurs in Portrait. I have to question that. My reading would be that Stephan has not even left for Paris at the conclusion of Portrait. And that in Ulysses Stephen relates how while in Paris he gets a telegram from his father telling him to come home his mother is dying. So I would say to be completely accurate Stephen's mother dies somewhere between the end of Portrait and the beginning of Ulysses. If i mis-read your comment I apologize.
For Ally - Hi, my name is Mark. I was drawn to your site by our mutual interest in Ulysses. If you guys would ever like to try again I'd like in be involved. I have read all of Joyce's books numerous times, and I'd love to help other people find the same pleasure in reading Ulysses as I have.
Hi Mark! I have not read it yet and it would be great if there were others who want to give it a go or just contribute to the discussion. Any others interested?
Roisin wrote: "Hi Mark! I have not read it yet and it would be great if there were others who want to give it a go or just contribute to the discussion. Any others interested?"Cool! I'm ready.
I would pick it back up again if there was interest.
Jan C wrote: "I would pick it back up again if there was interest."Cool! Now we are three.
Bright Young Things
Books mentioned in this topic
Ulysses (other topics)Ulysses (other topics)
A couple of years ago we attempted reading
...but we got sidetracked!
In case anyone is interested in having another go, or if any of our new members want to join in, I have edited all of the original threads to remove the dates we had previously intended to read each episode and I've attempted to ensure that each episode remains in the correct order, regardless of most recent comments. I hope this will make it easier to navigate and will encourage more participation.
If anyone has any general points to raise about the book, Joyce's writing style, the broad themes etc then please feel free to use this thread for those discussions. Any specific comments about each episode can be added to the designated threads. This will hopefully keep all relevant conversations in the right place, which will help Jennifer and I when moderating!
I know that this is a hefty tome of a book but it was a really interesting read and I'd like to encourage as many people as possible to join in with the discussions. There is no time limit for reading this so please join us!