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Substance Reads (1900-1945)
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Ulysses - Episode 2 - Nestor
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Ally
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Jan 23, 2011 11:51AM
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Ulyssesby James Joyce
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Some questions to think about, courtesy of the Evanston Public Library, Illinois1. How do Stephen’s beliefs come through in his role as teacher? Of whom does Cyril Sargent remind him?
2. On p. 34, Stephen tells Mr. Deasy, “History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.” What does he mean by this? [page numbers may change depending on your edition - I thinks these page numbers refer to the Vintage edition]
3. What do you think of Mr. Deasy’s statement on p. 31 - “I have rebel blood in me too”?
4. Were you surprised by Mr. Deasy’s anti-Semitic beliefs?
Joyce, a polyglot, was a teacher with Berlitz for a number of years, rather unconventional and with a quirky sense of humor to boot, leaving scores of countless nationalities with the foundations of good English grammar and an indelible Irish accent.Don't know, but this may have provided background experiences.
I've just started his brother Stanislaus' book, My Brother's Keeper, and it also sounds as though some of the things in the book may also be based on him. I think he was a professor in Trieste.I got that much from the foreword by T S Eliot.!
Jan C wrote: "I've just started his brother Stanislaus' book, My Brother's Keeper, and it also sounds as though some of the things in the book may also be based on him. I think he was a professor in Trieste.I ..."
James was the one who worked in Trieste. There is a rather bad book about it by someone or other which I used to own and can't find, which will give you some idea.
4374975 Everyone seems to have read so far ahead. I'm stuck here. I had to look up who Nestor was. The 'oldest and wisest' of the generals who had fought at Troy, accustomed to offering long-winded sage advice, who Telemachus went to see in hopes that he knew where Odysseus had got off to after the war. This from the Reader's Encyclopedia, wherein it says that Robert Graves pointed out that Nestor's advice was usually disastrous. Joyce's version is a well-meaning bore. It may not be necessary to know this, but knowing it does add a dimension to Deasy, doesn't it? I find that Joyce's added dimensions are usually humorous. LOL funny even. One element: if Telemachus sought out Nestor about his father, where's the equivalent here? That is, where's the seeking out and the questions about his father? Joyce doesn't leave stuff like that out. I'm just not seeing it. (BTW -- this is why I wanted to do this read. Previously I would just have blown by small difficulties.) [Posted by mistake to the Proteus thread three days ago.]
Bill wrote: "Jan C wrote: "I've just started his brother Stanislaus' book, My Brother's Keeper, and it also sounds as though some of the things in the book may also be based on him. I think he was a professor i..."Reads rather in the French way of poetry, doesn't he? With the falling tone that reaches bottom at the end of the sentence and then starts again at the top of the slope.
Charles wrote: "Bill wrote: "Jan C wrote: "I've just started his brother Stanislaus' book, My Brother's Keeper, and it also sounds as though some of the things in the book may also be based on him. I think he was ..."It reminds me why I never made it past page 3 in Finnegans Wake.
Charles wrote: "4374975 Everyone seems to have read so far ahead. I'm stuck here. I had to look up who Nestor was. The 'oldest and wisest' of the generals who had fought at Troy, accustomed to offering long-winded..."Ah but the race is not to the swift. A tip from experience. Read Joyce aloud, or at the very least, at the speed in which you would read aloud. I discovered that the slower you go the more you will enjoy yourself.
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I prefer to read this book showly so I can get into the nooks and crannies of it all and fully digest what I'm reading (with the help of our lovely group members). I don't want to overwhelm myself and I want to read this alongside other books so that I don't get consumed into a Joyce-only world of stream of consciousness narrative!
You can read at any pace you wish so please don't feel that you're lagging! - enjoy it. (...and thans so much for the Nestor insights! - I find them really helpful).
Ally
And don't start feeling that I am ahead.. I have been reading it since last June. We had the first meeting for Mission Impossible: Ulysses on last Bloomsday - library group. I am kind of racing now - we have a meeting on Tuesday and I still have about 100 pp in Circe to read.
Charles wrote: "Jan C wrote: "I've just started his brother Stanislaus' book, My Brother's Keeper, and it also sounds as though some of the things in the book may also be based on him. I think he was a professor i..."I believe Stanislaus took over James' position after his death.
Bill wrote: "1. How do Stephen’s beliefs come through in his role as teacher? Of whom does Cyril Sargent remind him? He seems to not be very authoritarian with the class; they're pretty loose. All the while ..."
Stephen tells Mr. Deasy, “History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.” What does he mean by this?
I thought this had more to do with Irish Nationalism than Jewishness. They felt that they were oppressed or persecuted. Not to say that the Jews also weren't persecuted. The Jews were kind of like strangers in a strange land but the Irish were treated as strangers in their own land.
Just a thought that I have kind of been carrying in my head since I read this in a message this morning.
Jan C wrote: "Stephen tells Mr. Deasy, “History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.” What does he mean by this? "Isn't the simplest interpretation that Stephen is oppressed by his past, and how the past has determined his present circumstances?
Bill wrote: "Charles wrote: "Isn't the simplest interpretation that Stephen is oppressed by his past, and how the past has determined his present circumstances? ..."
But all his inner thoughts, as portra..."
I am also not sure that the simplest interpretation is correct. The farther I go in this book, the more I realize that it has layers upon layers, almost like an onion. The more you peel back, the more there is.
Hmm, regarding the bit about "Stephen tells Mr. Deasy, “History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.” "I think I'm leaning towards JanC's interpretation of it being about the opressed Irish. Joyce seems to bring in a lot of recurring themes, and I seem to feel that this is one of them.
It would fit quite well within the loose frame of The Odyssey, according to what Bill just said in the thread for Telemachus, about Penelope (Mulligan)? being the accomodating Irish, and Telemachus (Stephen) being those too impotent to "reclaim his throne". (Self-government of Ireland)
But wait - if this interpretation fits, then Haines must be the "usurper", right?
Sorry to wander a bit off the point, but all of this makes me wonder where Stephen's mother fits in. Stepehen definitely did love her.
If you read over his reminiscences of her, it was with love that he played her the songs that she wanted to hear, and that he remembers her little secrets and the things she had loved.
Could she be freedom, now dead? I'm taking a complete shot in the dark here.
Sorry to ramble, but I just have to remark on how much I love Joyce's imagery: ...the library of Saint Genevieve where he had read, sheltered from the sin of Paris, .... Fed and feeding brains about me: under glowlamps, impaled, with faintly beating feelers: and in my mind's darkness a sloth of the underworld, reluctant, shy of brightness, shifting her dragon scaly folds. Thought is the thought of thought. Tranquil brightness. The soul is in a manner all that is: the soul is the form of forms. Tranquility sudden, vast, candescent: form of forms.
That almost reminds of Kafka and ee cummings. Stream of consciousness with rich imagery at it's best. :)
Traveller wrote: "Hmm, regarding the bit about "Stephen tells Mr. Deasy, “History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.” "I think I'm leaning towards JanC's interpretation of it being about the opress..."
While the book takes place in 1904, it was published on his 40th birthday in 1922 - shortly after self-government was granted to the Southern counties.
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Stephen comes across to me as rather dejected in this episode. There is a sense of all being lost. 'I hear the ruin of all space, shattered glass and toppling masonary', combined with the teaching of Pyrrhus (loyal to a lost cause according to my study guide) and the reference to a pier being a 'disappointed bridge' there is a sense here that Stephen is aligning himself with a lost cause (Irish independence from England). There is also a sense of futility in trying to teach the sons of rich parents, the child that perefers to eat fig rolls and poor Sargent who, in his ugliness and gracelessness could only be loved by his own mother (another set of lost causes in themselves - the future generation in Ireland perhaps).
As an aside - the money issue is interesting in this episode don't you think? Stephen has very little, when he tots up what he owes out his wages amount to less than nothing. Deasy however lectures from a position of privilege on the virtues of saving and equates good money management with the virtues of the English. - This to me is a comment on how the continued soverignty of England in Ireland has impoverished those who want Ireland to be wholly Irish. Stephen is therefore representative of this impoverished, dejected and futile 'lost cause' whereas Deasy is representative of the overlords 'usurping' Irish rights. Deasy even condescendingly says 'we are a generous people but we must also be just' to which Stephen winces 'I fear those big words...which make us so unhappy'. Its the poor nationalist vs the bloated unionist.(Maybe???)
2. On p. 34, Stephen tells Mr. Deasy, “History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake.” What does he mean by this? [page numbers may change depending on your edition - I thinks these page numbers refer to the Vintage edition]..."
I feel that Stephen is detaching himself from the history of Ireland. It has done him and his fellow Irish republicans/nationalists no favours. They are still an oppressed people who are seen as (like Jan C said) strangers in their own land. They have been made impoverished and condemned to the unfairness and futility of pursuing their 'lost cause'. Stephen sees history as hurdle to get over and has lost his faith.
On the other hand, Deasy sees history as part of a journey towards the 'great goal, the manifestation of God'. Like all victors, he feels that God is on his side.
3. What do you think of Mr. Deasy’s statement on p. 31 - “I have rebel blood in me too”?..."
I don't really have a definitive answer to this question. In context, he has pictures of English Royals on his wall and talks of being descended from generations of unionists. In the extract that reads ' Glorious, pious and immortal memory. The lodge of Diamond in Armagh the splendid behung with corpses of papishes...' suggests that in his younger days he may have played a more active role in the troubles fighting for the unionists. He may mean he was a rebel in reference to his role as fighter for a cause. On the other hand he could mean that he supported the nationalists (or at least supported peace) in his youth but that the weight of his bloodline was too strong to maintain a rebel streak and he eventually towed the line. I'm just not sure enough of Irish history or of the referencesto 'orange lodges' or who 'O'Connell' was. Perhaps if others in the group know more they could shed some light??
4. Were you surprised by Mr. Deasy’s anti-Semetic beliefs?..."
I believe that at the time this book was written there was quite a distinct opinion that the Jewish control of European Finance was potentially dangerous. Particularly given the 'depression' and extreme poverty of the times there was a level of resentment that existed towards those who were perceived as instrumental in the economy. Particularly as the Jewish community did not appear to 'feel the pinch' - Deasy's attitudes, aligned to England and unionism & driven by money saving and profit, are therefore not that surprising.
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_O..."Daniel O'Connell, often referred to as The Liberator,[1] or The Emancipator,[2] was an Irish political leader in the first half of the 19th century. He campaigned for Catholic Emancipation—the right for Catholics to sit in the Westminster Parliament, denied for over 100 years—and repeal of the Act of Union which combined Ireland and Great Britain."
The article goes on to say quite a bit more, which is why I included the site.
When he was elected to Parliament, he was unable to take his seat because of his Catholicism. Sir Robert Peel and the Duke of Wellington persuaded the King that Catholics and Presbyterians should be able to take their seats - otherwise it might lead to more violence in Ireland (Catholics) and, presumably, in Scotland (Presbyterians).
In addition, the question may also refer to the Ulster Irish - the Scots that the British essentially forced to leave Scotland and go to Ireland where they could get cheap lands (by kicking the Irish off of their lands). My understanding is they were taking the Scots' lands and sending them to Ireland in the thought that they would never get along and the Presbyterians would put down the Catholics. Many intermarried. Many subsequently came to America and were known as the Scotch-Irish - they settled much of the Appalachian area (Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Georgia). Andrew Jackson is a prime example of a descendent of this line.
Does this help?
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Books mentioned in this topic
Finnegans Wake (other topics)Ulysses: The 1922 Text (other topics)
