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The Problem with Self-Published Books...

Whoops, she did start this one. But the original discussion about this topic started over here.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I have done the 'read my book, I'll read yours ' and will put a review up on Amazon...
I won't do it again! What I read was very very discouraging and one review I received read as if they hadn 't read the book at all which was very disheartening when I made an effort and read theirs.
So go ahead and vet. Seriously I think readers would be happy to know several a pair of eyes have looked at the book and find it decent.
And perhaps, this would slow down the nasty reviews people seem to enjoy slinging at indie authors on Amazon....
So, if you have room I'd like to toss in The Elf Lord's Revenge and/or my novella I Swear My Roommate Is a Vampire"

Thanks for the supoprt. I'm so glad that you don't give a damn that some people are tyrying to get others to read and enjoy their writing, even if it's bad. I can't try to spread some writi..."
I titled my topic for a specific reason: to get attention. I need other readers, as well as self-published writers, to read this post if I am to be successful in my endeavor.
Self publishing has a bad reputation for a lot of reasons--some valid, some not. In gathering a list of books with a quality comparable to traditionally published titles, I thought I could steer readers toward indie authors for the benefit of both.
I apologize if my tone has offended you, and would like to offer my reassurance that I will not be screening your work. Overly sensitive authors are another reason some readers are reluctant to read and review indies. Only those confident enough to accept criticism should pitch their novels here.

This sounds like a worthwhile project, thank you for supporting indie authors and for your enthusiasm! I would be honoured if you would consider my books.
My published titles are:
[book:Bir..."
Thanks, Penny! I'm adding you to my list!

I would be happy to review horror, scifi and fantasy, LGBT, memoir, literary fiction, paranormal, spiritual, cats... definitely cats! :) I am less keen on Christian Romance, urban and YA though....

I would be happy to review horror, scifi and fantasy, LGBT, memoir, literary fiction, paranormal, spiritual, cats... definitely cats! :) I am less keen on Christian Romance, urban and YA tho..."
Lisa, thanks for participating. I'll message you when I have some titles!

I'd certainly be interested in putting my work up for consideration and possible review:
Martifius: The Wizard of the Eastwood
Christmas by Misadventure

It's not that I don't like criticism (because it's often given to me in a multitude of forms - including those that are meant to be offensive). I'm a violinist and a pianist and I know that you can't be perfect and the only way to get better is by finding out what you do wrong - just ask my violin teacher - he'll drag on with fifty different things that I did wrong in just five measures: 'you hold your bow wrong; your phrasing is wrong; your vibrato is too romantic-era, this is Mozart; etc...'. And it's not that I'm not confident - I am come scoglio. It's just that when you title something "the problem with self-publishing" it's kind of offensive (and yes, it did catch my attention)... I'll stop now. I don't want to be a hypocrite and start offending you.
Good luck with your project. If you do chose to read my book, I encourage you, CRITICIZE ALL YOU WANT!! :)

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This is the most bizarre serial killer case that has ever landed on the desk of Seattle Police Detective, Brian Kane. It's so bizarre that FBI Special Agent Rowena Ravenwood knows Kane will never solve it without her expert assistance. Her expertise is in realms of reality that Detective Kane thought only existed in B-grade movies. He's in for a very rude awakening. And what about his own dark and deeply personal connection to the case? How long can he keep it a secret?
The future of the entire human race hangs in the balance. The clues to help solve the case are in desperately short supply and so is the amount of time before all Hell breaks loose. And, according to Special Agent Ravenwood, that's not just a figure of speech.
KINDLE (U.S.) $2.99 - http://amzn.com/B006J6HRGE
KINDLE (U.K.) £1.86 http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006J6HRGE
PAPERBACK (U.S.) $12.30 - http://amzn.com/1478314192
PAPERBACK (U.K.) £9.95 - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1478314192


Thanks for the supoprt. I'm so glad that you don't give a damn that some people are tyrying to get others to read and enjoy their writing, even if it's bad. I can't try to spre..."
You are so right! Way to handle things. I know quite a few people on this site who don't read/review indie authors anymore because people are easily offended and can't see what other people see. Would it hurt my feelings if someone hated my book? Maybe. Would I lash out with defensive sarcasm? Nope. The fact is that most indie books are below my standards. Maybe even mine would be if I hadn't written it. How can I know? I don't get offended when people make comments about indie authors, I just hope I don't contribute to their negative opinions.

Thanks for the support. I'm so glad that you don't give a damn that some people are trying to get others to read and enjoy their writing, even if it's bad. I can't..."
Sorry again... I had a bad-ish day. (Ugh) People often make general statements that completely offend me - for example, 'opera is fat ladies with viking hats screaming on stage'... which it's not (well, sometimes...). That gets put onto me a lot. People just don't take the time to look for the good in things anymore... I don't, either!

Thanks for the support. I'm so glad that you don't give a damn that some people are trying to get others to read and enjoy their writing, even if it's b..."
You're right, of course. We all have things that hit our emotional buttons before we even process them. Make a comment about black people, adopted kids, or home schoolers and I'll have a hard time seeing what you're trying to really say!

An interesting idea. I have to agree that you are likely to get swamped by requests, and will receive some complains for all the rejections that are sure to found their way to the unqualifie..."
I'm grateful for your willingness to participate, but I do want to clarify that this is not a review swap. I'm adding your titles to my list for consideration, and would love it if you were willing to try out some new authors, but there is no guarantee for your own work.
If you are still interested in screening/ reading/ reviewing, we'd be happy to have you!


Exactly what did you have in mind?

I've added you to my list of readers. Thanks for playing along!

If you're at all interested in spiritual self-help, I'd like to throw mine into the ring—Fix Yourself.
I'm an Amazon Vine reviewer, and tend to be selective too.

I've added yours.

She's the one who's editing my novel.

Exactly what did you have in mind?"
I was thinking if we had enough support. We maybe could start an organization. We would have to set up requirements for membership and types of membership and so on. We could maintain lists of reputable editors, cover artists, agents, and even Self-publishing companies.
We could have writer circles even have classes on things eventually. But it would start as a place for people to come to for questions about self-publishing, editing and so forth. We have quite a few people on here that fall into each category. We could have panels to read manuscripts, review cover art, etc.
Maybe even have other successful writers publish articles or we could get permissions to reprint older articles. It might add a touch of respectability to self-publishing if readers believe it is being policed after a fashion.
The main thing is it will be focused on helping self-published authors, independent editors, cover artists and give info to people that are wanting to enter those areas.

I've heard of a few like that, and I don't get it, to be honest. If you put something up for sale, you accept that it is there to be criticised, just like any other product. Once it's out there, it's no longer 'your baby' - each copy bought belongs to the purchaser, and they have every right to say whether they like it, or think it's good, or not.
Of course, as an author you might still think that they are wrong, or have missed the point somehow, or whatever - that's up to you, obviously. A criticism isn't necessarily valid just because it's been made, but as an author you just have to review the criticisms in your own mind, consider their potential value in being taken into account for your future work, and keep your big fat mouth shut! The point is that you have put it out there, so you have to accept that others will read it, and might not like what they see, and might review it accordingly.
Putting it out there is a risk, and offering it up for something like this perhaps an even greater risk, but that's the risk you are inherently taking by publishing your work - by publishing you are inviting criticism. It just goes with the territory, and anyone who puts their work up for sale just has to accept that.

+1 on this. I've bought my share of traditionnally published works that ended up being so bad I wanted to hurl my copy (or my tabler) through the room, calling myself an idiot for falling for the pretty cover and/or the enticing blurb.
T. C. wrote: "Putting it out there is a risk, and offering it up for something like this perhaps an even greater risk, but that's the risk you are inherently taking by publishing your work - by publishing you are inviting criticism. It just goes with the territory, and anyone who puts their work up for sale just has to accept that. "
I tend to sum this up by "before publishing, grow some balls". A lot of people forget to steel themselves before it's too late, and then find out they can't cope with the criticism. (It's worth for drawing, music and other art forms, of course.)
I agree, though, that sometimes, some readers seem to miss the point. This is why I like to see a developed 1- or 2-stars review: you can more easily see if the reviewer misunderstood something, didn't read the whole book, or, on the contrary, managed to put a finger on something that could've been explained in a better way. The latter being one of the reasons why beta-readers, IMHO, are very precious: they can spot what the author can't see anymore in his/her own work.

Admirable, Mark! I appreciate the explanation. Please feel free to jog my memory with a PM when your books are available.

I'll PM you reference questions on joining the team. Do I need to send you a pitch to get my books into your TBR list? LOL... I hope not, that's one of the things I hated about traditional submissions!

I'm interested both in screening/reviewing books and getting more exposure for my Amsterdam Assassin Series:



I can screen both epub and mobi - my main fields are mystery, thriller, suspense. I can screen other genres and literary fiction for quality, but they are not my 'field'. I cannot screen poetry, YA, and (urban) fantasy.
I'm a stickler for verisimilitude, and you can check my reviews here on GoodReads and my blog post http://amsterdamassassin.wordpress.co... to see what kind of reviews I currently write and my attitude towards quality in fiction. You can also reach me on katlasieltjes@yahoo.com

I'm interested both in screening/reviewing books and getting more exposure for my Amsterdam Assassin Series:

Yea! Another stickler for verisimilitude! I think an average of 3 out of 5 reviews that I've written contain comments about verisimilitude.. lol.

Yes, there is software to determine readability. I myself checked this out because some reviewers mentioned that my 100K novels were 'short reads', which was odd. So I subjected my first novel to testing and I blogged about the outcome here http://amsterdamassassin.wordpress.co...
That blog article also give links to the sites where you can test readability.
However, readibility says something about the prose and pacing, but not much about whether the story is interesting or if the plot is full of holes... For that you'll need beta-readers/content editors/proofreaders.

Thanks for the supoprt. I'm so glad that you don't give a damn that some people are tyrying to get others to read and enjoy their writing, even if it's bad. I can't try to spread some writi..."
While I cannot speak for Jen, I can speak as a self-publishing author about self-publishing.
There are more crappy self-publishing books than quality self-publishing books, and it's up to the self-publishers to do something about our image.
Your defensive reaction comes close to the attitude of BBA/speshul snowflake authors who consider their work beyond reproach. Nobody is saying you need the stamp of approval. If you don't want to participate, don't participate. But I don't think you should react as if Jen is personally attacking you when she speaks the truth: the market is flooded with crappy self-published books and quality control is necessary.

I wish you all the best and hope you succeed where others have failed. I'm a slow reader these days, due to other demands on my time, but am willing to help in whatever way I can.

I would also be up for reading other's work to give my honest opinion on whether you should recommend them or not, however, my time is extremely limited, so I would only be able to do a couple, here and there... but when I am free, I can let you know through PM or email.
Hope you feel compelled to check out my book.


I can make some sense of it, but the sentence has several grammatical issues unrelated to the topic.


That blog article also give links to the sites where you can test readability."
I just took a look at that, and gave it a try with mine, just out of interest. The results didn't surprise me at all. The first book came out as:
Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease 50.3
Average Grade Level 13.2
And the second as:
Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease 61.6
Average Grade Level 11.2
That's fine by me - those scores are related to sentence length, word length, and so on, and I already knew that my writing style is somewhat 'wordy' (or the language a bit 'flowery', as one reviewer called it, which isn't to everyone's tastes, of course), especially in the first one. That's the way I write, though - I'm not aiming at the YA market (not that there's any 'adult' content at all), and I happen to like 'wordy' things and playing with words generally. The books are relatively short (deliberately - they have to be - it would be too 'intense' if it went on too long), but never intended to be 'easy/light reading' that you can just skip through, if you see what I mean. Some people like that kind of thing, some people don't.
That particular test doesn't say anything about whether the writing is any good, though, or even about whether the grammar is perfect - it's just about how 'wordy' (and therefore how 'easy to read') it is. Ultimately, only human beings can process writing to determine such things as how 'good something is, and that is always susceptible to their own tastes (I know my work isn't ever likely to 'appeal to the masses'! That's not what it was written for, though).

I write suspense fiction aimed at adults, but my writing is probably in keeping with the genre (nothing too flowery). And I agree that the test doesn't say anything about whether the story is well-written.
The high readability score of Reprobate: A Katla Novel is mostly due to the lack of run-on sentences, which allows for swift reading.
My suspense stories are quite complex (with several character perspectives and intersecting story lines) and making them easy to read is actually quite difficult. I'm not talking about dumbing down the language, but weighing every word to make sure that sentences do not have to be re-read for their meaning to be conveyed.

This isn't to say I'm interested in your review group, because I'm not (sorry). I'm all about getting better self-published novels getting recognized, but this is something subjective that you are trying to make objective. That is, what one person considers to be a "good book" is not the be all end all, nor is a group indicative of a majority unless the majority votes in the group (or so it should be, yes?). So I find that it is a lofty and not unreasonable goal you wish to attain, but as far as I'm concerned it is a lost cause that many others are trying for as well. But most of the others who are trying to do the same thing probably aren't well known, because such a thing is hard to do since self-published books are unregulated and because of this, quite numerous. There will always be more books than you have time to review, etc. etc. It wouldn't be solving a problem as much as it would be mitigating it, probably to a small degree. This all sounds like it's an elaborate troll, but while I see the purpose in your endeavor, I don't see a plan or a reality in it. I would think you'd need to team up with a self-publishing website and have your reviews be a "free" part of their package. Even then, you'd need credentials and whatnot... And even still, "not so good" books would slip through.
But a program that tests coherency is an interesting idea that I'd like to look into. I might experiment with that and get back to you with something if I can manage it. It's an interesting project that probably will end up as nothing special, but I'd like to take a crack at writing up something for it. This isn't a promise that a tool will be created for the purpose of testing coherency, but it is just one person who is about to do much research on coherency and spend a lot of time devising mathematical equations to make coherency less abstract and more concrete, unless someone has already done this, in which case I'll be turning their work into a program.

I just visited your link and took the test myself:
Readability - 81.5
Average Grade Level - 5.8
:)"
Congratulations. Far as I can tell, a high readability score indicates clever and concise prose. As you're writing literary fiction, that would indicate that your prose is aimed at conveying the message, rather than obfuscating clarity with purposely ambiguous meanderings.

I know there is 'writer software' that can scan texts for overused words, vague words, alliteration, and other detriments that can make texts less coherent. So you might want to check that before you invest time in possibly re-inventing the wheel.





Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease 87.4
Grade Levels
Readability Formula Grade
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 3.9
Gunning-Fog Score 6.5
Coleman-Liau Index 7.3
SMOG Index 4.7
Automated Readability Index 2.6
Average Grade Level 5.0

I'm interested both in screening/reviewing books and getting more exposure for my Amsterdam Assassin Series:

I've added you to my list of reviewers, and your novel is under consideration. Thanks for volunteering!

Your novel is on my list. Thanks for volunteering!

I've come across some already. I don't think I would be reinventing the wheel to remake programs like that, if that's what ends up happening. In essence, I am not making the program to help anyone but myself, and I'm not even really doing it to improve my writing but moreso because it's an interesting idea. If it turns out that I have nothing to create and there is no way to quantify coherency, then I probably won't come back with an .exe. But most of the software I've found isn't doing what I'm trying to do, or maybe they are but not in the way I'd like to try implementing it.
I want to test for coherency, which sounds like checking to see what things make texts less coherent. But really I want to determine if coherency is something that can be quantified. Looking for errors in coherency would be a secondary thought, and primarily I'd be looking into other things. I started by looking for programs that looked into this kind of thing just to see what's out there, but I want to do something that looks at paragraph unity and sentence cohesion. Right now, I haven't seen programs that do this, but if you have, I'd like to know.

Nowt wrong with a bit of well-constructed ambiguous meandering - some of us enjoy that sort of thing! ;-)
All that a high readability score on that test indicates is whether you tend to use lots of big words and long sentences, or little words and short sentences - it's a purely mechanical/mathematical judgement. It's a matter of writing style, and a matter of reading taste. If a person prefers something short and concise to get the message across quickly and effectively that's fine, but then for some there is great joy of playing with (or reading the playing with) language itself, and that doesn't necessarily lend itself to 'concisitude' so easily.
Books have two elements, in a sense - the message itself, and the way in which the message is conveyed linguistically. That test says nothing about the message, of course, but about the latter element it only indicates (roughly) which way it is being done, not how well it is being done. That's why such tests are something to be very wary of - while they might indicate how 'easy' the language element is to 'deal with' for the reader, even on that aspect they can't in any way test 'quality'.
Language itself can be a beautiful and exciting thing to behold, and being concise and to the point doesn't necessarily make it 'better', or more enjoyable to everyone. 'Concise' doesn't necessarily equal 'clever', but neither does it mean it isn't, of course. Likewise, not being 'concise' doesn't necessarily mean 'less clever' (nor does it mean that it isn't 'less clever', obviously!).

I think the grade level is determined not by the content, but by the shortness of the sentences and the average length/number of syllables of the words. Reprobate has an 'average grade level' of 6.7, but I doubt the material would be suited for seventh graders...
As for bestsellers having a grade level between 4 and 5, that doesn't mean the content is suitable for fifth graders or even if the books are devoid of 'difficult' words. I know plenty of three-syllable words that would be difficult to understand for readers below college graduate level, but this test just sees the amount of syllables.

You're welcome, Jen. Thank you for taking this initiative.

This isn't to say I'm interested in your review..."
Good luck with your endeavor!
Perhaps you are correct in your assessment of my project, but everyone has to start somewhere and the sites I've used as screening tools for indie books do not serve my purpose with any consistency.
While it is true that one man's trash is another's treasure, there are certain rules every writer should follow for basic readability. Note that I am not planning to write negative reviews, nor draft a list of "bad" books. My only goal is to provide readers like myself with recommendations of quality so they don't drop five dollars on a story that reads like this:
"The night was, dark. In the wood's at the end of the road beside the church that was in front of the field under a bright moon and cloudy sky I saw they're faces disguised by there masks and felt scared because I new they were coming for me."

I assume you read the whole blog article I wrote - I tested my book not for the readability, but to understand why some reviewers thought my books were 'too short' while they were actually longer than average.
I enjoy beautiful prose as long as it fits the subject matter. As I write suspense fiction, my aim is to make sure the prose lends the story the correct pacing for the scene: short, concise, clear sentences for action, longer sentences with longer words for introspective scenes, etcetera.
As one of my reviewers wrote: "His prose is largely straightforward and unadorned, concerned more with what’s going on than with the language. However, there are also some passages that stand out as eloquent and elegant, as well as a number of enjoyable turns of phrases and quotable lines. It’s apparent that Halm, though mostly economical with his writing, has a way with words."
And while my writing style in Reprobate might be 'unadorned', I use a different style in the standalone novel I'm working on, which is a first person narrative that has a different atmosphere than the Amsterdam Assassin Series.
Books mentioned in this topic
The Calling (other topics)Stein on Writing (other topics)
The First Five Pages: A Writer's Guide to Staying Out of the Rejection Pile (other topics)
Deadly Secrets (other topics)
Experimental Heart: Pieces (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Na'ama Yehuda (other topics)Ian Martyn (other topics)
Cinta García de la Rosa (other topics)
This sounds like a worthwhile project, thank you for supporting indie authors and for your enthusiasm! I would be honoured if you would consider my books.
My published titles are:
Bird of Paradise Drums Beating,
Mrs. Muggles Learns to Read,
Cave of Journeys.
My 4th is titled Stolen Spirits and should be out in February.
Thank you Jen!