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The Problem with Self-Published Books...
Jen wrote: "...is as much quality as visibility. Many threads here have rightly pointed out that there is no guarantee when picking up a self published work. There are no gatekeepers. I could publish a compila..."I think that you touch on very important points, and it is what got the Self-publishing industry a bad name to begin with--it sent the pendulum from over-restrictive publishing houses (who only wanted known authors of best-sellers) to almost 'anything goes' kind of mentality, with many authors not even bothering to do a copy-edit or basic grammar check of their work.
I like the idea of some form of 'quality control', even as I realize that it is not a simple thing to set up in a way that would cover all genres and all kinds of work. What you do sounds like an interesting blueprint for it.
If you are so inclined, I would be delighted if you're take a peek at my novel. It has been getting very good reviews so far, and while I know that this alone is not always a mark-of-quality, sometimes it can be.
Outlawed Hope
I can't guarantee I'll have a lot of time, but I will be happy to review. We're all in this together, for authors who want to do good work and publish good books. So it makes sense we make time to contribute.Being a 'certified bookworm' I am reading something at any given point, anyway. Some of the time, it can be new work to review.
Count me in.
Na'ama Yehuda
Emma wrote: "I still think that you should just let self-published writers be because a lot of us would never have the chance to publish anything, whether it's crap or not, untless there was self-publishing."Well, yeah, and there's an argument to be made for hobby publishing, And there are also people out there making good money on stuff no traditional publisher would ever pick up, but...
You can also make a very strong argument for the need for professional organizations with a reputation for policing quality. I don't think Jen was kidding about the drunken emails, although I'm betting some people's would be a lot more fun than others. There are some awful things out there, and not just because some people can't write to a traditional published standard. Apparently they can't proofread either, and the really scary thing is at least some of them seem to think that it's an unnecessary nicety. Or they don't respect their readers enough to produce a work with beginning, middle, and end. Or there are bizarre errors or gaps in logic.
It's crazymaking to many readers, it reflects badly on all writers, and it's particularly harmful to SPA's who are serious about writing professionally. And I think even hobbyists have an obligation to attempt to produce clean copy.
I've heard some authors indicate that one books release is to test the waters so to speak and they don't care how many copies it sells or how it's received. Which floored me. How do you expect people to buy your next novel...if the first one they read is a lazy effort on the authors part.So I think if there is a group of you all who want to vet books for the rest of us, I say bless you! Because you'll be helping immeasurably to raise the quality of indie publishing!
Good for you for taking on this daunting project. Readers should be aware that other "gatekeeper" type organizations already exist: Indie BRAG, Compulsion Reads, and Awesome Indies are just a few of the groups working toward the goal of letting readers know before they press the buy button that a book is of high quality. The more readers support books that have these "stamp of approval" awards, the more all indie authors (one hopes) will strive for excellence.
C.M.J. wrote: "J.T. wrote: "C.M.J. wrote: "I haven't read through the entire thread, so maybe someone has already said something like this, but I think it would also help you, Jen, if you actively seek vetters wh..."I stand corrected. I have been reading the thread and forgot the exact details of what started it
There is no guarantee when purchasing traditionally published work either. ;) I've tossed my fair share of books in the trash when they belonged there, way before ebooks and self-publishing.
B.L. wrote: "There is no guarantee when purchasing traditionally published work either. ;) I've tossed my fair share of books in the trash when they belonged there, way before ebooks and self-publishing."Sure, so have I, but this is also about the damaged reputation of self-publishers by the avalanche of crappy books.
I believe the self publishers should be left alone. After all the owner of this website is a self publisher, did you guys have to approve of it? But all in all you just get a refund if you buy a book that does not graduate your personal internal academy. We need a lot of groups to determine standards like what code all computers will go by and things like that but let artists be artists I always say...I write songs as well. So it may be an idea but it is like shutting a certain door and saying: Only certain people can exist in here!http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FKHIKEQ
J.T. wrote: "C.M.J. wrote: "J.T. wrote: "C.M.J. wrote: "I haven't read through the entire thread, so maybe someone has already said something like this, but I think it would also help you, Jen, if you actively ..."The longer the thread, the more treacherous it becomes to comment on it! :)
C.M.J. wrote: "J.T. wrote: "C.M.J. wrote: "J.T. wrote: "C.M.J. wrote: "I haven't read through the entire thread, so maybe someone has already said something like this, but I think it would also help you, Jen, if ..."
I think it has lost its way...
I think it has lost its way...
Jen, something just occurred to me today. One of the credentials for Awesomeindies is that they restrict their reviewers to those with professional degrees in something, particularly English. You'll want to select your reviewers carefully. If they don't have a very firm grasp on English grammar, how can they determine if a self-published book has grammar issues?So just a word of advice--be sure to research who you have reviewing.
(I have a BA in English and a Masters in Education. Unfortunately I don't have time to read a lot of books, but perhaps I could read samples of some to at least check for glaring issues. Then again, it appears that you're already doing that in your initial pass for books.)
T.A. wrote: "I believe the self publishers should be left alone. After all the owner of this website is a self publisher, did you guys have to approve of it? But all in all you just get a refund if you buy a ..."T.A., the nice thing about Jen's idea is that it doesn't keep someone from publishing their artsy error-filled home project. It just means that book won't be featured on her site as meeting professionally edited criteria.
Judy wrote: "Jen, something just occurred to me today. One of the credentials for Awesomeindies is that they restrict their reviewers to those with professional degrees in something, particularly English. You'l..."Judy, I checked out Awesome Indies a while ago. Their requirements are very strict and though I understand the value of such rules, I don't entirely agree. My primary issue with some self-published novels is not an errant comma or a few wordy sentences within a four hundred page manuscript. My problem is a lack of readability. When the errors are numerous enough that I'm unable to read a story I am genuinely interested in.
Though I do intend to ensure quality reviewers/ screeners for my group, I'm not looking to dissect any novel. I'm sure there are readers who might prefer that kind of approach, but there are other sites out there for that.
But there are some traditionally published books that lack proper grammar and punctuation. I read a book that was a stream of consciousness and there was maybe two periods per page, no clarity as to when sentences ended. I understand stream of consciousness, but it would be much more enjoyable if that stream has some form in the translation.
This is such an important thread! Thank you for starting it.I think that some of the issues are that there is more than one kind (and goal) in self-published books. Some publish because the want to see their name in print, others because they want to sell and make money off of their ideas/recipes/plans, others because they would never be able to get a publisher to take on their poems or their grandpa's love letters to their grandma... Not all of the self-published books, and the reasons for them, fall in the same category for what we may want to see in books that are out there for sale, being written as professional creative path.
Personally, I would like to see more along the lines of guidelines for how one might go about publishing a novel--at the very least getting a copy-edit by someone who knows what they are doing--but I also recognize that this may be something difficult to enforce.
So, maybe having websites that promote only books that pass muster makes sense. And maybe having good reviews can help. And maybe--as was suggested here--having authors who are serious about their writing and its quality review for each other.
I don't have a good solution, but I'm thinking maybe there are some things that can be done along the way. This whole industry (self-publishing) as it is now, is rather new, especially with the e-book option. It has some growing up to do, and I would like to believe that the good books will stand the test of time.
Jen - what a great idea! I'd like to put my novel, The Jewel of Kamara, forward for consideration. It's a young adult fantasy
Jen wrote: "Judy, I checked out Awesome Indies a while ago. Their requirements are very strict..."For anyone looking to prepare work for general publication, I don't think they are. Awesome Indies has been around a while and a lot of thought has gone into the service offered (also, unlike some other services the basic assessment and acceditation is free, unless you want to jump the queue for a quick response). Awesome Indies also runs group marketing initiatives for approved books, which is a nice plus.
Henry wrote: "Tura wrote: "Lauryn wrote: "I haven't read through the entire thread, but you all might find this site helpful. http://www.bragmedallion.com./
You can submit independently/self published books. ..."
OK, they are legit, I still would not read any of these http://www.bragmedallion.com./tag/fan... based on description & cover at least...
Jen,I'd love for The Northern Star: The Beginning to be considered. It was featured on the Examiner as one of the "Top 5 Indie-Published Books You Haven't Read, But Should."
It's dystopian/military sci-fi.
Thank you for the opportunity,
-Mike
The Northern Star: The Beginning
@Tura: Covers and blurbs aren't listed on Awesome Indies or BRAG as criteria for passing the screening or earning the stamp of approval but I'm surprised by that, especially since the sites market the novels that earn the stamp. I'm glad you brought it up because I was thinking the same thing.@Jen et al: It's a fact that covers and blurbs sell books, but should they be used as criteria for the book's stamp of approval? I see nothing wrong with letting an author know the story and writing are great, but the cover needs a re-design before the site will give its approval. I'd hate to market an aesthetically unappealing book that indicates the author studied Photoshop for a weekend before designing the cover.
Heather wrote: "It's a fact that covers and blurbs sell books, but should they be used as criteria for the book's stamp of approval?"Covers and blurbs are important to get a book exposure. If the cover sucks, but the blurb rocks, the book might get read. If both suck, chances of the book getting read are strongly diminished. The stamp of approval would be intended for books that are as professional as possible, i.e. close to trade published novels in every aspect.
If a book gets ousted for having a crappy cover and blurb, the author could always get someone to remedy those problems and reapply for inclusion again, couldn't they?
If I've missed your book, question, offer, etc., please message me. At this point, I think I've got everybody...
Jen wrote: "At this point, I think I've got everybody..."...excited?
...panicked?
...sorted?
...contained?
Heather wrote: "@Tura: Covers and blurbs aren't listed on Awesome Indies or BRAG as criteria for passing the screening or earning the stamp of approval but I'm surprised by that, especially since the sites market ..."The blurb at least should give you some idea what is inside, otherwise what is the point? Cover, well, I guess I have to accept that some people are just blind to any visual style and have no honest friends with normal eyesight either, or otherwise lousybookcovers.com did not exist.
If your blurb is poorly written, grammatically speaking, then why was I to believe the inside is any good? Also if the blurb describes the most worn out plot possible, I am inclined to believe the worst, even if I may be wrong. Giving a sample of the actual book would be good, but then again I am not going to read the sample of every book ever published, am I? Also so far it has mostly led me to go Meh, don't want to read that, so maybe the strategy was not so good for the authors...
Also, looking at awesomeindies.net which seems to list a few of the same books at least under "Fantasy" category, when did fantasy become solely YA? I am not YA, and even as YA I did not read YA. Put YA books with the other YA please, and preferably Paranormal Romance as well (yuck yuck yuck) even though I guess it comes under Fantasy. Awesomeindies has a lot (really a lot) of subcategories, so Fantasy-not-YA should be doable, if the books exist.
Martyn V. wrote: "Jen wrote: "At this point, I think I've got everybody..."...excited?
...panicked?
...sorted?
...contained?"
LOL
Most of the response I've gotten has been skeptical, offended, or hesitantly optimistic!
Martyn, I've been meaning to ask you: how do you feel about sci-fi? I've gotten a lot of pitches in the science fiction genre...
BTW, I got curious of the 5 indiebooks you should read article mentioned above and, well, I did read http://www.examiner.com/list/top-5-in... If this is the BEST of the lot I am not now as interested, though some of the others do have intriguing descriptions. It's a readable yarn but not, well, let's just say there is room for improvement.
Martyn V. wrote: "Richard wrote: "Wow, look what I found among the mushrooms... A whole blog that purports to be a list of chaff... http://black-spot-gray-hand.blogspot...."purports to become a list of chaff."
And is retreating into it's own hole as well: This blog is open to invited readers only
http://black-spot-gray-hand.blogspot....
It doesn't look like you have been invited to read this blog. If you think that this is a mistake, you might want to contact the blog author and request an invitation.
It was open a few days ago, I went to see if there was any progress.
Jen wrote: "Martyn, I've been meaning to ask you: how do you feel about sci-fi? I've gotten a lot of pitches in the science fiction genre..."I used to read Herbert, Iain M. Banks, Heinlein, Silverberg, Wiliam Gibson, Asimov, and especially Philip K. Dick.
One of my last reviews was SF, Sark, but I'm not a connoisseur.
Jen,First I commend*edited* you for taking on just an enormous task. I can only imagine the time you're putting in to sift through all the requests you've gotten.
I'd like to offer my new book Experimental Heart: Pieces to you lists of considerations. It's an Urban Science Fantasy and the first in the planned series. I would like to mention, I didn't find anything in this thread about how new a book can be for consideration. (next part will be brutally honest) My book only came out in December so while I've had a few purchases I only have one review and it happens to be from someone I know making the validation of the review a little lower in my eyes (even though I know her claim to be a picky reader is very true). So if prior reviews are needed as a type of validation I can understand if you decide not to take my book on for consideration.
I will also mention my title's genre is currently under review if it falls under romance because of something mentioned by reviewer and a test reader that wasn't mentioned by other test readers prior to publication. If you don't care either way, disregard this last paragraph.
Shannon wrote: "Jen,First I commemorate you..."
I think you mean commend:
com·mem·o·rate
transitive verb \kə-ˈme-mə-ˌrāt\
: to exist or be done in order to remind people of (an important event or person from the past)
: to do something special in order to remember and honor (an important event or person from the past)
:)
As to the reviews - I don't think we'll screen on the basis of reviews, etcetera, but rather recommendations by readers or authors.
Thanks for pointing that out Martyn. Kind of want to hit myself for not seeing that mistake. But I do thank you for clearing up the bit of confusion around the reviews.
I think Jen is now in the stages of structuring the process: how the books will be selected, screened, and recommended. Will take some time and effort by all involved.
Sounds like she has quite the task ahead of her but if she and everyone involved are determined and willing, I have no doubts they'll succeed with what they're setting out to do.
Shannon wrote: "Jen,First I commend*edited* you for taking on just an enormous task. I can only imagine the time you're putting in to sift through all the requests you've gotten.
I'd like to offer my new book [..."
I've added your book.
Genre is not limited but I would like that clarified, please. What genre do YOU consider it to be and why did your test reader/reviewer disagree?
Overall we all agreed it was an Urban Science Fantasy. That was quite clear. The disagreement/question revolves around if it qualifies as a romance or if it just has certain romance themes/aspects encompassed within the main/sub plots. At first I thought it might have enough to be listed under romance but I wasn't sure so I opted no to do it. Course now that a few readers point out it might have enough, it's thrown me for a loop.I think I'll make a quick help thread to see if everyone here can help steer me in the right direction
Scratch off the romance. After speaking with others my first judgement call was best.
My book, By Right of Arms has lots of Romance (no smut mind you) but it is a Futuristic Military fiction novel or scifi military novel. My book, Blood and Steel: A Love Story, has romance in it but is a Paranormal fantasy novel not romance. So just having romance in it should not label it as so. If you toss the label on, the romance readers will buy it and go "This is not a romance novel" and the other readers will go "I am not going to read that romance crap" so you miss out on both audiences. By not labeling it as such you can draw from both audiences as long as you don't preset their expectations.
My debut detective-fantasy novella is still in the read-and-review stage of the editing process, so I won't put that forth for consideration just yet.However, I would love to be a part of this review group of yours, Jen. My preferred genres are science fiction, fantasy, and YA novels.
Hi Jen, Hope you are not overwhelmed with the response. If not I'd like to add my novel. Its a thriller. Deadly Secrets. The first part of a trilogy.
The second is due soon. Good luck with your venture.
Jen wrote: "If I've missed your book, question, offer, etc., please message me. At this point, I think I've got everybody..."Hi Jen: Didn't see mention of my two-part thriller THEIR LAST SECRET Books 1-2 by Carl Hansen. I believe I posted it way back, like the 8th-ish. Thank you for this kindness. If you need help read and critiquing, I used to do story analysis for scripts and books in Hollywood and write coverage. CH
Carl wrote: "Jen wrote: "If I've missed your book, question, offer, etc., please message me. At this point, I think I've got everybody..."Hi Jen: Didn't see mention of my two-part thriller THEIR LAST SECRET B..."
I've added your book, and will take a look soon. Thanks!
Jen wrote: "Carl wrote: "Jen wrote: "If I've missed your book, question, offer, etc., please message me. At this point, I think I've got everybody..."Hi Jen: Didn't see mention of my two-part thriller THEIR ..."
p.s. I just re-edited my post to offer you help due to my story analyst experience in Hollywood.
Carl wrote: "Jen wrote: "Carl wrote: "Jen wrote: "If I've missed your book, question, offer, etc., please message me. At this point, I think I've got everybody..."Hi Jen: Didn't see mention of my two-part thr..."
Carl, that's very much appreciated! I've messaged you.
D.C. wrote: "Isn't there some kind of software that text can be put through for readability? Some of what makes a good book is elusive, but there are basic, easily definable standards for things like grammar a..."I haven't had the opportunity to evaluate it myself, but Grammerly is a software that promotes itself as you've defined.
Jordan wrote: "Jen wrote: "***Note: I am not accepting free copies. I will be doing significant research before adding to my TBR list. If your book passes the blurb and sample test and still holds my interest, yo..."I'm one of those Indie authors, so I'm probably not the right person to suggest this, but I've been looking for a blog that discusses the actual errors in writing and style. Sure we can say a particular book didn't flow, or throw out a couple tidbits about hanging prepositions ... but how about actual hints. Hints that help writers in general
I posted a reply earlier about words I call "sodium" words, words we're used, but really don't need (is, are, what and that). I've been removing these words in my books, since during an audio book playback, they sounded wrong.
There other things I've noted or done in book s I've read or written.
- The overuse of "I" or a derivative (I'd, I've, etc.) in 1st person POV. I read a very popular book where this occurred 181-time in like 5-8 pages of story. I got to the point I could no longer read the book.
- Pronouns (he, she, him, her, his, her's etc.) vs. proper names. When reading several books recently, I started noting the subtle differences in the intimacy and perspective of the story when using pronouns vs. proper names. When shifting perspective from one character to another, anchor the paragraph only once with the proper name, then try to use pronouns throughout the rest of the paragraph. The paragraph becomes more intimate to the characters perspective. When changing perspective, re-anchor.
-People speak in contractions, we even subconsciously superimpose them when we read, don't be afraid of using them. Especially during a dialog exchange.
-Proper grammar, to the letter of the law - in most cases is painful to read. I know there are two schools here, but commas (when used properly) keep the flow and cadence smoother. I'll put down a book if I see short, concise sentences with a lot of periods on a page. Listen to a book written with a lot of periods on audio playback, it sounds wrong. Then listen to the Harry Potter Deathly Hallows.
-slowly scroll through you manuscript, look at the first word(s) in each paragraph. How often and how proximate are the same words or word sequences repeated. It becomes very evident when every paragraph starts the same way.
-try not to repeat nouns and verbs to close to each other. Repeating a powerful word too soon sounds/feels like deja-vu.
-I would love to see various examples of different sentence structures that convey the same message ... ie. 1. Adam watched from a perch outside his window, waiting for Alicia to walk by on the street. 2. Watching from a perch outside his window, Adam waited for Alicia to walk by on the street. 3. Waiting outside his window, Adam watched for Alicia to walk by on the street. 4. Waiting, Adam watched for Alicia to walk by on the street, perched outside his window.
I'm not an english expert, in fact I'm at the other end of the spectrum, but I know what I like to read.
I've spent a lot of time studying popular styles over the last couple years, and these are just a couple of things I've noticed.
I wish someone would start a blog dedicated to fleshing out these tricks, help us struggling writers not write crap.
Jen wrote: "...is as much quality as visibility. Many threads here have rightly pointed out that there is no guarantee when picking up a self published work. There are no gatekeepers. I could publish a compila..."D.C. wrote: "Isn't there some kind of software that text can be put through for readability? Some of what makes a good book is elusive, but there are basic, easily definable standards for things like grammar a..."
I haven't had the opportunity to evaluate it myself, but Grammerly is a software that promotes itself as you've defined.
Actually, a compilation of drunken emails might actually be quite funny and popular. Be this decades Darwin Awards.
Kurt wrote: "...but I've been looking for a blog that discusses the actual errors in writing and style. Sure we can say a particular book didn't flow, or throw out a couple tidbits about hanging prepositions ... but how about actual hints...[...]...I wish someone would start a blog dedicated to fleshing out these tricks, help us struggling writers not write crap."I think there are two sides to this argument:
-there are already a variety of blogs that will give writers advice on writing and style. The main problem is that the variety makes for uneven advice, scattered around. However, if a writer needs instruction on writing and style, there are several writing books, like Stein On Writing: A Master Editor of Some of the Most Successful Writers of Our Century Shares His Craft Techniques and Strategies and The First Five Pages: A Writer's Guide to Staying Out of the Rejection Pile, that have in-depth analysis on these topics.
- if you read my reviews, pay attention to the 1-star and 2-star reviews, because I will point out what I think was wrong with the book. Many of these 'negative' reviews can be instructive to (beginning) writers to show what readers will not put up with, like info dumps, lazy writing and sloppy research.
Another thing I often stress, is that many writers publish prematurely. First time efforts are rarely worthy of publication. And writing can be a pastime or a profession. If writing is 'just a pastime', just publish on your blog where your prose will be exceptional, don't publish a book where your prose won't be sufficient. Readers have different expectations of blog articles and books. If your book fails to reach reader expectations, you damage your own career.
If you regard writing as a profession, treat it as such. Invest in yourself. Study the art and craft in books on technique, join study groups like critique circles and learn how to critique and be critiqued, grow thicker skin and learn how to appreciate constructive criticism.
People with a talent for surgery don't go hacking into bodies. They go to school, learn about anatomy and practice on corpses before they are allowed anywhere near an operating table.
Just because you can string words together in coherent sentences doesn't make your prose fit for publication, just like your ability to wield a steak knife doesn't make you capable of surgery.
I have blogged about Grammerly and other software. I was very frustrated by it. I use Scrivener now, but it's not the end of the discussion. Finally, I have recently invested in professional editing, I await the results with interest.
Goodreads Authors/Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
The Calling (other topics)Stein on Writing (other topics)
The First Five Pages: A Writer's Guide to Staying Out of the Rejection Pile (other topics)
Deadly Secrets (other topics)
Experimental Heart: Pieces (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Na'ama Yehuda (other topics)Ian Martyn (other topics)
Cinta García de la Rosa (other topics)
The readability ranged..."
Most popular adult fiction comes in around a sixth grade level, so that's pretty normal. Any fiction coming in much over tenth is going to be difficult to read, ie. Ulysses or War and Peace. Lit fic will tend to run a little higher, but you're pretty much on the money. The one I plugged in that was coming in around high eighth had archaic language, word order, etc.