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The Problem with Self-Published Books...
Martyn V. wrote: "Shari wrote: "OMG! Someone didn't really write that, did they?"Jen did. :)"
LOL
Martyn V. wrote: "I assume you read the whole blog article I wrote - I tested my book not for the readability, but to understand why some reviewers thought my books were 'too short' while they were actually longer than average.I enjoy beautiful prose as long as it fits the subject matter. As I write suspense fiction, my aim is to the prose to lend the story the correct pacing for the scene: short, concise, clear sentences for action, longer sentences with longer words for introspective scenes, etcetera."
I did read it, and I agree absolutely. As I said, doing it either way does not indicate 'quality', and the pacing and construction has to work for the narrative. My usual kind of 'wordy' style simply wouldn't work for 'suspense fiction', because it wouldn't keep pace with the way the narrative needs to mostly work to engage the reader.
So far I've been writing humorous 'fantasy' (loose definition - fantasy, scifi, horror stuff) based on deliberately fairly ridiculous ideas (although there are some more serious elements in there too), and involving alot of character introspection, which gives me a great deal of scope to play fast and loose with the language, and muck about with it any way I want, and be as 'wordy' as I want (within reason, of course). Obviously there are moments in my work when I need to pick up the pace a bit to fit with something that is happening, and I do that too.
Of course, some people will find such stuff simply irritating anyway, but I agree totally that the subject matter has to fit with the style, and the pacing has to be right for the narrative.
Jen wrote: "Perhaps you are correct in your assessment of my project, but everyone has to start somewhere and the sites I've used as screening tools for indie books do not serve my purpose with any consistency. "I can completely understand this. There really isn't any way to know what you're getting into until you let go of your money, which is unfortunate, and if the tools used to measure books are dull... suddenly you're losing a lot more than money. Self-published authors are really relying not only on themselves, but other authors who are self-published to put out top notch books to make the idea of a self-published novel seem worthwhile to readers. In the reader's case, they would need to know if the books themselves are good but they can't all be asked to determine that on their own. It would be easier if someone manned the flood gates somehow.
So I want your idea to work, but I'm skeptical. I'm just too jaded at this point to think otherwise. I'm not even that old! And I certainly haven't written any books. But I've definitely read too many self-published novels that make me write 1-star reviews when it turns out I put down hard earned money for nothing. Self-published novels do need quality control, but... @_@ It's tough for me to see the world of self-publishers affected by any one solution, because they always have the option to ignore anything they don't want to see or hear.
But nothing's worth doing if it's easy and you're taking on something that I think will be really hard. Hopefully by starting this group you might determine a better solution than what we've got now. Or maybe you can better what is already in play. Whatever it is, I hope it turns out well.
Martyn,lol, I just had to try it. Note that my books are aimed at 12-14 and above. (YA and adult fantasy novels).
Heart of the Witch:
Readability score: 81.8
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 4.9
Gunning-Fog Score 6.7
Coleman-Liau Index 9.9
SMOG Index 4.9
Automated Readability Index 5.4
Average Grade Level 6.4
And my not-yet-published YA fantasy, Journey to Landaran:
Readability: 75.0
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 6.9
Gunning-Fog Score 9
Coleman-Liau Index 9.9
SMOG Index 6.2
Automated Readability Index 7.3
Average Grade Level 7.9
Hmm. That means I need to go chopping some more at the new novel. Good thing I'm still in final edits.
Ashlee wrote: "..they always have the option to ignore anything they don't want to see or hear."To their own detriment, Ashlee. I dislike prematurely published books because they currently *seem* to be the standard for self-published works. So readers who don't want to squander their money on rubbish have to take a crash-course in 'slush-pile reading', which is usually a junior editor's work at a publishing house. The main problem is that this requires more effort on the part of the reader, the paying customer.
I think what Jen proposes, is that Jen and the other volunteers go through the 'slushpile' and select the books that deserve to be read, so the reader gets a pre-selected choice of books that are guaranteed well-written, formatted and edited.
Martyn V. wrote: "Ashlee wrote: "..they always have the option to ignore anything they don't want to see or hear."To their own detriment, Ashlee. I dislike prematurely published books because they currently *seem*..."
That's exactly right, Martyn.
Jen this is a good, even if challenging, idea. I appreciate that you also have a long-term view of this stating in a previous reply that you know it will take some years. I don't think there is a solution to "bad" self-publishing but I understand that your point here is not to solve this problem but to be a resource that we can all go to, as Martyn said, "go through the 'slushpile' and select the books that deserve to be read..." Now I imagine that some people will be offended by that description as well but I think we all know that we all have different perspectives. There are a multitude of traditional publishers for this reason. "50 Shades of Grey" was read by a lot of people, picked up for publishing, AND turned into a movie and yet it remains a very, VERY common example in this group, on this site, all over the web, and in real life as really crappy writing.
My feeling that there is no solution to "bad" SP is not pessimistic but realistic. Look at music, people have long been making and sharing their own music and a lot of that is crap, indie label or big-time (Britney Spears has somehow miraculously made her way back to the top without even climbing!). Jump on Youtube, watch some cover videos. I promise you'll find some extremely talented people singing in their parents' living room or the closet of their apartment. But you're also going to find people who make you embarrassed for them , people for whom you say, "why don't their people just tell them the truth?" But this kind of stuff I think we're used to. TV is littered with good shows and an easy hour's waste of time; I've talked myself through more than enough big budget movies. My point? Writing has entered the world of entitlement to say the least. It is what it is.
It's projects like this that make the less than pleasant parts of arts & crafts possibly more bearable. I say go for it Jen! What beauty there is in the freedom and choices we have; if you read Jen's recommendations in the future and hate them, then now you know they're not for you, period. Move on. Find more recommendations. But if they help you then sweet, now we've got another resource to refer to.
Jen I like your proposed process so far of reviewing and researching and having a "team" of people to back you up. This I would think will increase people's confidence in your site and recommendations. Plus seeing all the people volunteering here - myself included - means that you have that diverse of a group. As with anything (everything!), this project will feel itself as you go along, growing and throwing things out as you go, your commitment to it will be nourishment.
Congrats on this new project and its emphasis on the positive: self-published/indie books that are "good". No doubt this opens a door and will hopefully lead to good things.
:-)
Happy New Year everybody!
eLPy
J.T. wrote: "What would everyone think about a national organization that promoted Indy authors, editors, cover designers, etc?"You might want to do a little research, or more than you have if you have already, on who's out there already doing something along these lines.
For instance there is an organization, The Alliance of Independent Authors: "The Alliance of Independent Authors (ALLi) is a global, nonprofit, collaborative collective of independent self-publishing writers."
They're also a group on Goodreads.
From them I learned of The Independent Publishing Magazine that provides a lot of good articles and information including stories from other successful SPAs. http://www.theindependentpublishingma...
I've found both of these resources to be very useful and while ALLi has paid membership for the year they have a lot to offer. I would have to go back and check in terms of any free membership. Nonetheless as you can imagine an organization that does have some paying members is going to enable them to offer that much more. They provide information about vetted, credible professionals for example if you should need any. These are just a couple of resources I can think of off hand.
While I'm absolutely not trying to discourage you, it's always good when forming any new organization/group/business to see what's out there. You may find something exactly like what you're thinking about and would be better off joining their ranks, strengthening their army or you may find nothing and of course everything in between.
Either way, best of luck!! Happy New Year!
eLPy
Okay, with all that said, yes Jen I would be interested in helping you with screening on occasion. I read some free verse poetry although the best way for me to decide if it's a style I enjoy is to read some samples. But I also like thriller, mystery, suspense, and some sci-fi. I have to join with some others in saying I'm not particularly interested in vampires and werewolves. I'm also interested in some non-fiction. I'm open to reading genres outside of my usual interests if the book's description really appeals to me. All in all, I'm interested in helping out.Also my debut poetry collection is out and would like to "submit" it to you for consideration.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...
Thank you for sharing your idea and extending your hand.
eLPy
author of "That Which Lives Within"
www.littlefacepublications.com
eLPy wrote: "Okay, with all that said, yes Jen I would be interested in helping you with screening on occasion. I read some free verse poetry although the best way for me to decide if it's a style I enjoy is to..."Thanks for your support! I've added your work to my list for consideration, and will contact you when I have more titles.
Richard wrote: "Which one? :-) Every distribution outlet is currently flooded with slush."I think the idea is not to find the bad books, but to find the books that deserve to be read. That would be books that are equal or surpass similar books published by the big Six (Five?).
Since this is Jen's project and I'd merely be a minion, I cannot speak for the way the project will take form, but I assume that the selected 'worthy' books would not have crappy covers, crappy formatting, and crappy editing. So I guess the first selection will be on attractive/professional covers and blurb, then move on to reading a sample to determine if further reading is warranted.
Personally, I can decide within the first page if a book is not worth my trouble, but if I read on, it might take several chapters to see if the book is really as good as it professes to be.
Cross-threading here, a little. Martyn wrote in another thread: Publishing houses are not interested in quality writing, but in commercial mass appeal. As such, they are looking for the next E.L. James, not the next Margaret Atwood.I don't think anyone can argue with his point. It's an important disctinction for authors/reviewers to consider: would the group be recommending well-written novels that it believes fall under the category of good writing (including graphics and formatting)? Or would the group be recommending novels that it believes would appeal to the mass market, aka books it thinks authors might profit from? What if the writing is horrible, but the group has a hunch the story would appeal to the general public? I'm assuming the answer is A and it'd be up to the authors to realize that poorly-written novels can be vastly popular, and beautifully-written novels can collect dust for years. The group would serve readers, not authors per se. No matter how much we hate the way "society" may value this book or that book, it is what it is.
I'm thinking about McDonald's. Universally popular, but not the best burgers by a long shot. Are we recommending the juiciest burgers in the country to consumers, or are we recommending the most profitable burgers for entrepreneurs? Ideally, the burgers are juicy AND profitable, but, you know...
Martyn V. wrote: "Reprobate has an 'average grade level' of 6.7, but I doubt the material would be suited for seventh graders..."Glad you said this. I was thinking the same thing with the two stories I've put through the software -- The Forgotten is one of the darkest pieces of fiction I've ever read, much less written, and it would definitely not be appropriate for 5th graders. In fact, really I'd say late high school at the earliest.
I tried to put one of my already-published (not self-pub) novels through, but the site choked. :-S I'm not sure if that's a bad sign or what...
Richard wrote: "Martyn V. wrote: "the idea is not to find the bad books, but to find the books that deserve to be read. "I realize that, but what I think dooms such efforts to failure, at least without a tremend..."
It's not a terrible idea to create a site for the unreadables. It would be easier and faster to do that, rather than ensuring quality. I'd volunteer but I don't think I'm comfortable enraging the masses, and that would surely be the primary result!
Jen,If you would be so kind as to read my books and let me know what you think. That is when you have time since everyone is so excited to have you do it and have loaded you up. One has a good review from Piers Anthony in his online newsletter, and the other has a pretty good Kirkus review. Both are self-pubbed but have gone through a copy-editor. I don't have time to read and review books currently but may be available in the future. Both books have a 20% sample on this site and are available on Amazon. I do send free review eBooks but not print versions.
J.T. wrote: "Jen,If you would be so kind as to read my books and let me know what you think. That is when you have time since everyone is so excited to have you do it and have loaded you up. One has a good re..."
I've added your books to my list for consideration. Any other recommendations you have for SPA are welcome! I'd like more books to choose from...
That is great, thank you very much!
Richard wrote: "If you're dividing wheat from chaff, you should end up with two piles."Yes. A small pile of wheat and a huge pile of chaff. A farmer would just toss the chaff and keep the wheat, which is pretty much Jen's idea.
If you read my reviews on GR, you'll find that I review both books I like and books I dislike/hate. The negative reviews are not intended to help the authors to improve their work, but to point out to readers and beginning writers the mistakes authors make when they publish prematurely.
Jen's idea is a positive idea: to only feature books that the staff thinks are worth reading. That would be a 'pre-selection' service to readers who have been burned by accidentally buying crappy self-publishing books, and maybe restoring the faith of these readers that self-publishing authors can put out worthwhile books.
Making lists of crappy books doesn't serve readers who are looking for worthwhile books to read. To restore faith in the self-publishing industry, we need to make lists of good books to recommend to readers.
Crappy books don't deserve attention, they deserve to sink to the bottom of the barrel.
Ian MartynI have recently e-published two science fiction books:
Ancestral Dreams: The Return
Project Noah
And of course I would love them to be considered.
On a general point I guess that I accept that when I'm paying less than the price of a coffee for a self published book there is a 'quality risk', besides simply not liking the book / style. However I've had more good experiences than bad (yes there have been a few where I haven't got beyond the first chapter or so) and when I find a good one I look for others by the same author.
For my own part as these were my first books I paid for both editorial and later proof reading (with more editorial) input. It costs, but at least I feel I've given them a fighting chance.
That is a fun piece of software. I got a lower readability, higher grade level, on a deliberately somewhat archaic Regency piece, and a higher readability, lower grade level on a contemporary.
Richard wrote: "If all you have is a list of good or acceptable books, how do people know whether a random book that isn't on the list will be worth their time?"Well, I assume that people who are unsure of the quality of a book that's not on the 'recommended' list can:
- ask the website to screen/review the book
- learn how to screen books themselves according to the standards we'd set down as used to screen and review the recommended books on the website.
The main thing is, I rarely buy a crappy book, because I know what to look for. What I can do, you can do too, if you are willing to put some time and effort in learning how to separate the wheat from the chaff. However, if you are unwilling to invest that time and effort, you can just go to the recommended list.
Martyn V. wrote: "Richard wrote: "If all you have is a list of good or acceptable books, how do people know whether a random book that isn't on the list will be worth their time?"Well, I assume that people who are..."
I've occasionally been snookered by something where the start is strong and then it falls apart. I'm particularly thinking of a short story that sounded intriguing and wound up being these disjointed little snippets in almost random order. It was very weird.
Not the only time that happened, though.
Richard wrote: "Martyn V. wrote: "Making lists of crappy books doesn't serve readers who are looking for worthwhile books to read"I think it serves anyone who is looking at a book or its cover and wants to know ..."
You make some good points there, but the fact of the matter is that no list will ever be all-inclusive. There are too many indie books published every day to ever compile a guide that encompasses all quality work.
That said, I've already sorted through the titles pitched to me for initial inclusion and am looking on my own for other work. Martyn's suggestion to include a link for readers to suggest books for screening is a great idea.
If you know what to look for, the process of exclusion (at least on a basic level) can be done quite quickly. A handful of errors in the blurb, for example, is a very good indication of the quality of the work.
Any suggestions you have to improve the potential usefulness of this project are welcome, though I can not get on board with creating a "don't bother" list. My goal is to introduce well-written work, not spotlight those that, as Martyn said, don't deserve attention.
Richard wrote: "Martyn V. wrote: "Making lists of crappy books doesn't serve readers who are looking for worthwhile books to read"I think it serves anyone who is looking at a book or its cover and wants to know ..."
Thanks for saying what I've been thinking, Richard. We are all 100% biased and bring our experiences—and therefore our preferences and prejudices—into any process we engage in, from eating to reading. Consequently, a panel vetting anything for a list will by default slant their choices toward their preferences; it's ingrained, unavoidable. Such a group's compilation in no way reflects either the overall taste of those not in the group or the quality of the work rejected.
One way to help people using your list, Jen, might be to state the reading preferences of the vetters, such as genre, well-known author, and writing style. Then at least users would have a vague gauge of whether their taste coincides with yours.
C.M.J. wrote: "Richard wrote: "Martyn V. wrote: "Making lists of crappy books doesn't serve readers who are looking for worthwhile books to read"I think it serves anyone who is looking at a book or its cover an..."
Thanks for the suggestion!
Eventually, I hope to have enough group members to thoroughly represent every genre. I don't want any book excluded simply because a handful of people don't appreciate the style.
Jen wrote: "That said, I've already sorted through the titles pitched to me for initial inclusion and am looking on my own for other work. Martyn's suggestion to include a link for readers to suggest books for screening is a great idea."Thanks, Jen. I think the idea of having readers pitch books for screening will also make the site more 'interactive'. And we could also give out pointers for readers who want to screen their own selections.
C.M.J. wrote: "One way to help people using your list, Jen, might be to state the reading preferences of the vetters, such as genre, well-known author, and writing style. Then at least users would have a vague gauge of whether their taste coincides with yours."I think a small bio of each reviewer should appear on the website, with their preference in genre. That's also why I stated my preferences in post #80, so Jen knows I won't screen/review poetry or YA paranormal.
I haven't read through the entire thread, so maybe someone has already said something like this, but I think it would also help you, Jen, if you actively seek vetters whose style preferences are diametrically opposed. For example, include someone who believes that Stephenie Meyer is a great writer and also someone who's certain she should never have been published. Then it's more probable that, if those two review the same book, they'll have to agree on more than stylistic issues for the book to pass muster. It's not a perfect solution to the problem of bias, but it's a start.
I haven't read through the entire thread, but you all might find this site helpful. http://www.bragmedallion.com./
You can submit independently/self published books. Not sure exactly how their system works, but they go through their submissions and promote the ones that are quality.
Lauryn wrote: "I haven't read through the entire thread, but you all might find this site helpful. http://www.bragmedallion.com./
You can submit independently/self published books. Not sure exactly how their s..."
I will be checking it out, just in general I thought a caveat was in order: there are an awful lot of give-money get-good-review sites out there. Often they garb themselves as "competitions" and are used to promote a self-publish site, so it can be cheating a novice writer as well as the reader: "hey, I won a competition, I must be really good, and these guys want to print my book. Am I lucky or what?" And then they can sell you printing services. I find any site where all the books are rated 4+ to be suspect - well, that includes Goodreads but still.
Dear Jen: What a kind offering. I'll read the entire postings today.
I have a unique, but all too familiar story of my journey as a female writer in the male dominated screenwriting world and now the thriller genre.
And ironically I write about women in these genres.
I'm a woman (with an intentional male pen name, instead of initials this go round) still struggling for my place at the table in this world of screenwriting. Hence my reason for the male pen name.
I chose my father's name this time to honor my father who inspired the book. I've modeled one of the characters after him.
A male pen name (our secret) is not meant as a betrayal to us women writers. It's my attempt to another strategy around this particular gatekeeper monster of mine.
I will win and outsmart this gatekeeper.
New to Goodreads, this is my debut as a thriller novelist.
The stories of all kinds of women artists struggling in H'wood are very real, very concerning and glacially slow to evolve.
In less than 60 days I'll be at this life for another decade. "Another decade," I say to myself and exhale. This is the year of the huge push. The biggest of my career.
Finally, I answered the other nagging Muse and began the 4 year journey into researching, writing, re-writing with one year of editing solo (terrible idea always) then 1 year editing with an editor.
As the book mellowed before the final edit/pass, I wrote another feature script, then finished the final edit with the editor.
My first two-part Michael Crichton-esque thriller novel has been on Amazon since 7/13.
Please feel free to read the four sample chapters of both books there to qualify it for your review list.
THEIR LAST SECRET: DECLASSIFIED and Part two THEIR LAST SECRET: DISCOVERED written by Carl Hansen.
http://www.amazon.com/Their-Last-Secr...
and part-two http://www.amazon.com/Their-Last-Secr...
Part Two/Book Two Discovered takes up right where Book One leaves off.
My Goodreads Blog and Kindle Author page may help you have more insight into my journey.
Thank you so much for this opportunity.
C. Hansen
I saw the readability software reference earlier, but today I put the first ten chapters to the test. These are from Surviving the Fog-Kathy's Recollections.The readability ranged from 78.7 to 88.7
The grade level ranged from 5.1 to 7.
This is interesting since my target audience is 16 to 24. On the other hand Kathy is 14 when she begins to tell her tale. I'll have to continue with the other chapters. I like the concept of this, and it was easy to do.
C.M.J. wrote: "I haven't read through the entire thread, so maybe someone has already said something like this, but I think it would also help you, Jen, if you actively seek vetters whose style preferences are di..."I believe I'll take this one for Jen. I believe you have the concept wrong. This will not be a vetting for the writer's style per-say more of mechanics and structure. The plan is to vet out the books with plot holes the size of Texas, the poor grammar, poor spelling, etc. The things that could and should be corrected before hitting the publish button. These are the things that are objective in nature.
What you are discussing is more of is this a good book or not. That is purely subjective and not part of any vetting process.
Using Stephanie Meyer as an example (since you mentioned her) I do not care for her writing style but, her structure is good and I would score her high on a structure and grammar standpoint but I think her story is a bit ridiculous, so I would score it lower in an opinion based review.
Carl wrote: "Dear Jen: What a kind, generous offering. I'll read the entire postings today.
I have a unique, but all too familiar story of my journey as a female writer in the male dominated screenwriting ..."
I am sorry you are running into issues with the "Old boys club" as so many women have before. In publishing it is less so but very strong in Hollywood. Your best bet is to find an actress/producer to pitch your script to. They tend to be a little more accepting.
Jen wrote: In March, I am starting a group dedicated to promoting self published books. I have a small group of readers, including myself, who will read and review and promote indie authors of quality work. No book will be promoted unless at least five of us agree the writing is worthy..."Good on you for taking the initiative. However, my inner skeptic has some questions:
- Why is it useful for you to start up yet another group to carry out this function, instead of offering your services en masse to an existing service (such as Awesomeindies.net) to help it grow larger?
- How much traffic do you expect to get? Discoverability is a problem for websites as well as books.
- Most important: why should anyone value your group's opinions about books? What special expertise do you bring to the table? In short, what makes your effort different from any of the thousands of other book blogs out there?
I'm not trying to harsh on you; I'm asking questions you need to be able to answer convincingly before you invest other people's time, effort and dreams in your project.
The indie world doesn't need yet another book blog trafficked by a few hundred people a month. We need our own Kirkus or NYT Book Review, something that gets thousands of hits a day and commands respect from the mass media that still rules the publicity world.
The path ahead of you isn't merely uphill, it's nearly vertical. That said, good luck.
J.T. and Stan: Thanks for your encouragement, J.T. that's my plan... I tried to make my own market too early, before the market was ready, brazen as that was. But I'm brazen. Recently wrote a feature about an unsung WWII unit. I write very male. Maybe because I'm a military brat of a strong father.My book is an ensemble piece of equally strong females and males, Yes, I wrote my book as a strategy, adaptable to a cable series/movie with a specific actress with her own successful prodco in mind.
TV's the BIG thing now.
Stan, your book looks intriguing. I'll read sample chapters when I have a minute. Glad it reads well per software.
Thanks for your support. It strengthens my armor! Never quit!
Submitted first three chapters. 79.3 readability, 6.2 grade level. Years ago I had a program that did this and explained Hemingway read at grade 6. We're doing well!
Writers read your work out loud, always. You can format your work to look professional. You only have one chance to make a first impression. Less is more. Never edit your own work. Your brain self corrects. My editor and I read passages out loud to each other and I even corrected verbally! I just sat there amazed.
C...
Jen, thank you for attempting this selfless and time consuming task.
The indie author's goal of conceiving an original idea and writing an intelligent, literate and engaging story is only half the battle.
The next step – learning how to self-publish and satisfy the requirements of Smashwords, Amazon, B&N, Apple, etc. is not too difficult.
But promoting and marketing a book is a daunting prospect.
There are so many reviewers' blogs, each with their particular preferences and standards, it's hard to know where to begin.
Which is why a scheme like yours has great appeal for a writer like me.
Readers of conventionally published novels have the basic assurance that an agent, an editor, a publisher and a bookseller have all found the manuscript to be worth their time and trouble. But, confronted with an endless list of self-published indies, where does a reader start?
Reviews on Amazon and elsewhere can be expansive, enthusiastic and genuinely instructive, but also snide and petty. (I've had my share of both types.) Being listed as 'worthy of consideration' by an impartial and well read arbiter would, I think, be a great help.
So I hope you'll consider adding 'The Scottish Movie' to your pile of contenders.
It's a novel about Shakespeare, Macbeth, theft, revenge – and Hollywood. Tonally, it's part historical novel, part contemporary entertainment. Think Hilary Mantel followed by Carl Hiaasen. (I wish...).
The Scottish Movie
Whether you read my book or not, don't give up on your idea. It's a good one.
Paul Collis
Richard wrote: "Wow, look what I found among the mushrooms... A whole blog that purports to be a list of chaff... http://black-spot-gray-hand.blogspot...."purports to become a list of chaff.
Stan wrote: "This is interesting since my target audience is 16 to 24. On the other hand Kathy is 14 when she begins to tell her tale. I'll have to continue with the other chapters. I like the concept of this, and it was easy to do."I would take care with attaching too much value to the test. The content of the text is not scrutinized, just the mechanics, i.e. short sentences with short words get a higher readability score than long sentences with larger words.
My own book, as mentioned in that posting, has a high readability score and the average grade level indicates that it could be read by YA readers. However, the content of my book is aimed at college graduate and above, not just because of the language or theme, but also because of the subtle nuances and layers that would not be immediately apparent to casual readers.
J.T. wrote: "C.M.J. wrote: "I haven't read through the entire thread, so maybe someone has already said something like this, but I think it would also help you, Jen, if you actively seek vetters whose style pre..."Here's what Jen said in her initial post: "My hope is to provide that stamp of approval for writers who have taken the time and effort to refine their craft, and to help readers find new authors of good, well-written work." (Emphasis mine.) The concept of what's good is absolutely subjective; hence, my suggestion about choosing people with opposing viewpoints. But perhaps Jen meant to refer only to the mechanics etc. of the writing. As I said, I haven't read the entire thread.
About the crap list... I didn't see an actual list on the Black Spot blog.I have thought there ought to be another kind of crap list.
After being active in Goodreads and reading the concerns readers and writers have about self-published crap, I thought that book shoppers could benefit from a site that could filter some of that out. The title I thought for such a site was Self-Published C.R.A.P. (Critiqued, Revised And Professionally edited, proofread, and professionally affiliated) but that’s probably not going to fly. It amused me, though.
Here's my arrogant little draft (I can't believe that without established Curmudgeon Rights, I dared do this):
Professionally Edited Peer-Critiqued Indie Authors
Welcome to (whatever you call it, not really C.R.A.P.), where you are assured of a book that has gone through the peer critique process and professional editing.
What is peer critiquing and why does it matter?
Writers notice the following in each other’s work: plot, style, pace, clarity, believability, characterization, tension and conflict that build a scene, word choice and clarity—everything that makes a book a good read. They find in the big picture problems and the nit-picking details. Writers in a critique group can work a chapter over as much as necessary, and can even redo the whole book and have it critiqued again. This site is a place for readers to discover indie authors whose work has been peer-critiqued by other authors before being published. Not just read by a spouse or friends, but by writers who can say the hard things necessary to make rigorous revisions and restructuring possible, and who can also point out what works and why.
What does an editor do for an indie book?
The authors on this site have also had professional editing. As your English teachers could tell you, we tend not to see out own lack of clarity in wording at times. Even the best writer makes mistake like over-using certain words or sentence structures. An editor polishes the writing in ways neither the author nor the critique group can. Some editors also work on plot and suggest revisions. Writers, and sometimes our editors, also don’t tend to see the typos where they meant to say one thing and typed something else instead. The brain fills in the missing “a” or the correct word. Authors listed here have their work proofread AFTER editing.
Authors listed here are affiliated with the organizations that support and educate authors in their genre. Membership in RWA, SinC, etc. (Brenda supplied the names of the Sci Fi and Horror writers’ groups and I lost them!) provides a framework in which authors can follow all of the steps above and make sure their book is ready to publish. Their memberships and critique groups, beta readers, and editors have been verified before inclusion.
I still think that you should just let self-published writers be because a lot of us would never have the chance to publish anything, whether it's crap or not, untless there was self-publishing.
D.C. wrote: "Isn't there some kind of software that text can be put through for readability? Some of what makes a good book is elusive, but there are basic, easily definable standards for things like grammar a..."PerfectIt is pretty good and not outrageously priced.
Grammerly is also good but it is a subscription which gets pricey over time.
Emma wrote: "I still think that you should just let self-published writers be because a lot of us would never have the chance to publish anything, whether it's crap or not, untless there was self-publishing."The idea is not to crucify those who publish crappy books, but to uphold those who craft worthwhile books. So, SPAs can offer their books for screening, if they fail, the book just isn't listed as a recommended book, but it won't be put in a public display of 'failed screening'. And if an author knows their book has been considered but failed the screening, they can email Jen and ask for the reason of exclusion.
I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring. There's no better arbiter to decide whether a book is worth reading than an impartial third party who has nothing to gain other than to gain a few hours of entertainment or helping someone else to do the same. Here's my book. Hope it passes the smell test.
Since discovering self-publishing I've been doing something similar. I've reviewed over fifty books, made a list of any typos and other issues I think I see, and wherever possible, share that list with the writer. I publish the review at Amazon, Smashwords, Goodreads, Shelfari and my blog. I have been participating in writing reviews for Readers Favorite, but frankly I can't find much there that interests me.If an organization of some sort develops from this discussion, I would like to participate. I usually read book a week.
As for my own work, I don't know that I am looking for a stamp of approval, but feedback and exposure are always good things. You can find links to my books, which are historical fiction, at my profile page which I hope you can find it since Goodreads has a great deal of trouble finding me. They keep telling me that my email address doesn't work.
At the end of the day, reading the sample is the best screening tool for determining readability before buying. My shopping habit is to download a dozen samples, most of which I'll delete after a couple of pages. Out of a dozen samples I may find one that I want to finish, but that is about the same rate of acceptance I find with traditionally published books.
Great idea; I hope it works. Having no shame, and very little conscience, I'm adding my two books to your massive stack that still seems to be growing. Use one or both. They're available as ebooks at Amazon.com, soon to be in paperback. The first is my SF novel, "Ship of Storms," the second a collection of short SF & Horror stories, "Places of Time." All except one of the short stories in the latter have been previously published in magazines, so you might want to skip that one. A preview of my novel is up at https://www.createspace.com/pub/commu...
Goodreads Authors/Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
The Calling (other topics)Stein on Writing (other topics)
The First Five Pages: A Writer's Guide to Staying Out of the Rejection Pile (other topics)
Deadly Secrets (other topics)
Experimental Heart: Pieces (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Na'ama Yehuda (other topics)Ian Martyn (other topics)
Cinta García de la Rosa (other topics)
That is not an excerpt of an actual novel. I'm pretty sure I'd get in trouble for that. What it is, is an example of the kinds of errors I find when I randomly seek out self-published work.