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Proven Guilty
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Proven Guilty (Dresden Files #8), by Jim Butcher; Start Date: October 17, 2013
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Looks like my kind of trip:D I can't think of the last time went on a trip that didn't have ocean or beach involved .
Yes, it is really beautiful there.
ShoSho’s Questions and Lisa Kay’s Answers for Chapters 31-39
33. Again I didn’t see that coming! Charity has magic. I always thought Charity is too self-righteous but the way she treated her daughter...! She did the exact same thing her parents had done to her and caused Molly to leave. I can’t believe she had never told Michael about her magic. And the way she treated Thomas! I just don’t like her.
Completely gob smacked by Charity’s magic. Yes, parents tend to repeat their parents errors – it is the “tapes” in our heads. We have to work very hard at erasing them, if they are erroneous. I actually liked that she was finally being honest with Harry.
34. What did he mean by “The dragon”? Did this Gregor person sacrificed people to a dragon to gain power? Did he chain her to an iron post for the dragon? Have we heard anything about this before?
Not sure of this, even after re-reading. I don’t think this was mentioned before. I’m wondering if “dragon” means drugs? Or if it is possibly a “real” dragon?
35. So Molly used black magic to alter her friends’ brains. Does she have a mentor who told her how to do it or did she learn it all by herself? She has broken one of the laws, what do you think would happen to her? I think Harry will vouch for her and take her as his ward!
I think she’s doing it on her own – hence, the analogy to the young Korean kid at the beginning of the book. I’m really worried as to not only how Harry will save her, but how he’ll get her out any trouble with the White Council.
36. I knew the baby hair wouldn’t work, I thought that baby isn’t the same person as this new Molly and I was right. What did you think of Lasciel’s performance? Isn’t she getting too meddling?
I expected it to work. Except, it didn’t have any root – which is what you need for DNA, so it totally makes sense that it didn’t work. Yes! Lasciel is definitely getting too meddlesome.
37. Haahaa Bob the Perv! “Don’t get me wrong, big guy, I like you .But not that way.”
LOL! Yes, I like that JB can throw in humor at certain points and get away with it; not every author can manage this trick.
38. Who is the next knight? I always thought (hoped is more accurate) it would be Harry himself. Or maybe Murphy? What do you think?
I thought it would be Harry back several books ago. Could be Murphy. I wondered about her.
39. Were you surprised with Charity’s skill in fighting? On the side note, why can’t Harry stop ogling her?
Yup. I was surprised. Yeah, she doesn’t come across as all that sexy, so it was interesting to see where Molly got her looks.
41. A clever way to get Fix and Lilly to help. And sneaky of Lily to send that butterfly with them. Thoughts?
Yes, loved all that. I loved that Harry was so appreciative of Lily’s butterfly. (Even if all of Winter is now after his butt for using it’s power.)
40. Who had Killed Mab’s guards with fire? A fallen angel?
Yes, that whole scene in Arctis Tor was creepy. Oh, I hadn’t thought of that. I was thinking the Summer Court. Or the Red Court. But, I like your guess better, considering the smell of brimstone.
41. The creepiest scene in the whole book for me was the wink. Was it really Mab? Was she looking the whole time? I was expecting to see Lea there but I wasn’t expecting her telling Harry not let her free. I thought Harry would either kill or free the Winter Knight. I was surprised that he left him there. Comments?
I’m guessing it really was Mab in that marble statue; she really is whack-a-doodle. And Lea’s not far behind!
Totally shocked by it all!
That looks like a wonderful place to holiday, LK. Hope you have a wonderful time!
Lauren wrote: "That looks like a wonderful place to holiday, LK. Hope you have a wonderful time!"Thanks, Lauren! I hope so, too. I have been on holiday in eons.
Lisa Kay wrote: "Drat! I made a type-o. I meant [spoilers removed]"Yep ,figured it out!
You're so clever. ☺
@Lisa Kay#34,maybe Gisela can help us on this?
#36.In magic books , they don't say anything about the DNA and they always talk about cut hair.so it might not be the DNA that they want! but good thing to know about the root , I didn't know.
#37.yep he really can!
#36 - Yup. Got to have that root.
I'm calling it a night, ladies. That nap earlier today worn me out. ☺
LOL !Naps tend to do that to me too! Good night LK!
@34- I think a dragon was mentioned in B3 at Bianca's ball. I'll check on it.
#36 Harry's mentioned that hair can be used because it was part of a whole and through a part he can affect the whole. In B1 he controlled a broom with a few bristles.
I was going to explain why the hair did'nt work bur I'm on phone. Bob explains it at the very end of ch. 33.
#41 - So, I'm laying in bed last night, trying to sleep, and I'm thinking about this book. When Lea was warning Harry about the way Mab tortured the Winter Knight (and then her losing interest), was she trying to tell harry to be wary of Lasciel - that she would do something similar?
Lisa Kay wrote: "#41 - So, I'm laying in bed last night, trying to sleep, and I'm thinking about this book. When Lea was warning Harry about the way Mab tortured the Winter Knight (and then her losing interest), w..."I thought it was more like she was warning him against being the next winter knight !
Does Lea know that Harry has Lasciel?
I agree with ShoSho however the warning also applies to Lasciel.Eventually we learn why Lea was imprisoned there. If you've finished then, a mild spoiler although I think this was mentioned in B4 but since I'm not sure, tags.(view spoiler)
Sooooo who fixed Little Chicago?
Gisela wrote: "Sooooo who fixed Little Chicago?"I don't knowwwwwwwwwwww! I've read a few books after this but I can't stop thinking about the unsolved mysteries in this one!
Do you know , Gisela?
I was just going to write down the last set of DQs. any other volunteers?
Gisela wrote: "I agree with ShoSho however the warning also applies to Lasciel.Eventually we learn why Lea was imprisoned there. If you've finished then, a mild spoiler although I think this was mentioned in B4 b..."Interesting tidbit in the spoiler tags! Now I'm looking at the whole thing differently!
I honestly can't remember who did it. :)
Questions for chapters 39-47Some of these are not question ,just tell us your thoughts on them.
42.I was expecting Molly to be hurt or injured but she was alright ,as if nothing had happened to her. I didn’t like it. Of course if she was injured the rest of the book wouldn’t have played out like that but still ,a little traumatized would have been nice!
43.So the Summer lady and Winter lady are working together and they just used Harry to get what they want. What do you think about this situation? Do you trust them?
44.I feel so bad for Murphy. She doesn’t deserve all this. I wish she would just quit the law enforcement and goes solo against the bad guys !
45.Now we know why Molly was like that with Nelson and why Mouse growled at her. She probably was giving away bad vibes when she was angry at Nelson. And the baby is Nelson’s, which was a surprise for me.
46.We had guessed that there will be a hearing for Molly but I didn’t expect it to be this horrific . The Merlin is a jerk. He was going kill Molly just because he doesn’t like Harry. Harry and Ebenezer think that either Merlin or ancient my are the traitor. Which one is it?
47.I loved the conversation between harry and Michael in the car. I listened to this part 2 times. I think I have memorised the whole thing !Shiro’s sword ,Merlin , Michael’s Sword (Was it Arthur’s?) , Lasciel (Wow that he knew about Lasciel ) and what he said to him about what would he do if Harry picks up the coin. And his theory about the purpose of the whole thing.
48. sooooo who fixed the little Chicago? I can’t think of anyone! Harry’s father ghost? The elves? I have no idea , do you?
49.What do you think about what Molly did? The naked stunt? And Harry’s reaction and what he told her afterwards? I was impressed with him!
50.Have I missed anything?
Lisa Kay’s Questions for Chapters 40 – the end 42. Chapter 40: The two Ladies – Lily and Maeve – were in it together – and Fix was relatively clueless! Whatever does this mean? I can understand Maeve’s motives, as she is “The Queen Who is to Come.” But what does that make Lily? (Wait – or was Lily suckered as much as Harry was, as he seems to think, in the last chapter in his discussion with Ebenezar?)
43. Comments on Harry’s soulgaze of Molly? Several options there, for her future path. Will she be alright? Will we ever find out what she saw in Harry? Besides gentle and honest and lonely, that is. (BTW, I was shaking right along with her in front of the Senior Council! Poor girl. I appreciated how Harry explained what it felt like to be under that black hood. Ugh.)
44. I really like Ramirez. I sure hope he isn’t the traitor. Do you think he and Molly could hook up?
45. The Order of the Silver Oak: “I name the friend and esquire to the Summer Court…you need but touch this device and call aloud upon Titania for aid.” How did Lily get her Queen to do this, I wonder? (Surely Queen Titania is still holding a grudge against Harry.) Does Lily have some ulterior motive? How will it be used by Morgan and Harry; one for the other?
46. I didn’t quite understand the scene with the Gatekeeper. He broke the circle and let Ebenezar and Luccio et al return from fighting – and they had Molly’s father, Michael, with them. (Clever Harry! I understood why he sent a message to Michael, and liked its side benefits! LOL!) But what exactly did the Gatekeeper know and mean? Was Merlin somehow keeping those people from returning, so they couldn’t vote, and the Gatekeeper knew this?
47. The “Doom of Damocles”? That doesn’t sound good, though Harry shrugs it off. Mostly, I worry that Molly will get Harry killed. Thoughts?
48. So, Michael knew about Lasciel’s coin all along! Ha! All that worry for nothing. And he saw big Harry prevent little Harry from picking it up. Michael then tells Harry that giving up magic will help – but, if Harry did that, whatever would happen with Molly?
49. Oh, Molly! The little temptress apprentice. Was he too harsh with her, or did he need to be to get his point across? He was certainly very honest. I had to laugh over, “And no, ah, solo exploration either.” LOL!
50. Eep! Murphy lost her job with SI and was demoted to Sergeant! Holy crap, that sucks. And her partner will be Rawlins, who knew her father. Thoughts.
51. Whatever did Murphy say to Thomas about Harry in the car? Is there still hope for a Karrin Murphy♥Harry Dresden connection?
52. Who snuck in past Harry’s wards and fixed little Chicago?
53. Harry talked with Ebenezar and he doesn’t think all this was Mab’s doing, but that she, herself, was being used. Who do you suspect: Morgan, Injun Joe, the Merlin, Ancient Mai, or someone else entirely? A Black Council? So, does that mean there is more than one traitor? Whatever, Ebenezar and Harry go out for a bite to eat, so it looks like their relationship is repaired, right?
ShoSho’s Questions and Lisa Kay’s Answers for Chapters 39-47
Some of these are not question, just tell us your thoughts on them.
42. I was expecting Molly to be hurt or injured but she was alright, as if nothing had happened to her. I didn’t like it. Of course if she was injured the rest of the book wouldn’t have played out like that but still, a little traumatized would have been nice!
I didn’t even think of that. I figured it was an all or nothing thing. I don’t think she needs any more traumas. Poor kid.
43. So the Summer lady and Winter lady are working together and they just used Harry to get what they want. What do you think about this situation? Do you trust them?
I think it is very, very interesting that they were working together. I think it is a big power move on both their parts.
44. I feel so bad for Murphy. She doesn’t deserve all this. I wish she would just quit the law enforcement and goes solo against the bad guys!
Yes! With Harry! They would make a great Private Investigations team.
45.Now we know why Molly was like that with Nelson and why Mouse growled at her. She probably was giving away bad vibes when she was angry at Nelson. And the baby is Nelson’s, which was a surprise for me.
Yes, explains Mouse. I never even thought about who the baby’s father could be. Makes total sense that Molly’s subconscious would do that, though.
46. We had guessed that there will be a hearing for Molly but I didn’t expect it to be this horrific. The Merlin is a jerk. He was going kill Molly just because he doesn’t like Harry. Harry and Ebenezer think that either Merlin or Ancient Mai are the traitor. Which one is it?
Yes, Merlin the jerk. He thinks too lightly about life and death. I don’t know who the traitor is. I kind of hope it isn’t Morgan. For some weird reason I’ve liked him all along.
47. I loved the conversation between Harry and Michael in the car. I listened to this part 2 times. I think I have memorized the whole thing! Shiro’s sword, Merlin, Michael’s Sword (Was it Arthur’s?), Lasciel (Wow that he knew about Lasciel ) and what he said to him about what would he do if Harry picks up the coin. And his theory about the purpose of the whole thing.
Yes, it was the original Merlin’s sword and therefore King Arthur’s.
48. Sooooo who fixed the little Chicago? I can’t think of anyone! Harry’s father ghost? The elves? I have no idea, do you?
Oh! I hadn’t considered Harry’s ghost father. Good one. I was wondering if the housekeeping fairies somehow let someone in. But I don’t know who.
49.What do you think about what Molly did? The naked stunt? And Harry’s reaction and what he told her afterwards? I was impressed with him!
I was a little shocked (poor Molly, she’s so young). But I think he had to be that rough.
50. Have I missed anything?
Look mine over… Our questions are pretty much the same. LOL! Sorry I was late. I had a migraine yesterday. Then woke up early this a.m. and did them, not realizing you had done them, too. Thank you.
Answers to Lisa Kay’s Questions for Chapters 40 – the end 42. Chapter 40: The two Ladies – Lily and Maeve – were in it together – and Fix was relatively clueless! Whatever does this mean? I can understand Maeve’s motives, as she is “The Queen Who is to Come.” But what does that make Lily? (Wait – or was Lily suckered as much as Harry was, as he seems to think, in the last chapter in his discussion with Ebenezar?)
It seems everyone has been a pawn in a bigger play by an unknown person or persons(the black council?) even Mab and Titania and the ladies
43. Comments on Harry’s soulgaze of Molly? Several options there, for her future path. Will she be alright? Will we ever find out what she saw in Harry? Besides gentle and honest and lonely, that is. (BTW, I was shaking right along with her in front of the Senior Council! Poor girl. I appreciated how Harry explained what it felt like to be under that black hood. Ugh.)
she'll semi-alright . She'll have difficulties but she'll be wizard.I don't think she'd ever put aside her magic.Yes I like to know what else she saw
44. I really like Ramirez. I sure hope he isn’t the traitor. Do you think he and Molly could hook up?
It occurred to me that they could hook up. I hope he isn't the traitor ,I like him
45. The Order of the Silver Oak: “I name the friend and esquire to the Summer Court…you need but touch this device and call aloud upon Titania for aid.” How did Lily get her Queen to do this, I wonder? (Surely Queen Titania is still holding a grudge against Harry.) Does Lily have some ulterior motive? How will it be used by Morgan and Harry; one for the other?
Fairies always have ulterior motives !It's be interesting to see how they use it
46. I didn’t quite understand the scene with the Gatekeeper. He broke the circle and let Ebenezar and Luccio et al return from fighting – and they had Molly’s father, Michael, with them. (Clever Harry! I understood why he sent a message to Michael, and liked its side benefits! LOL!) But what exactly did the Gatekeeper know and mean? Was Merlin somehow keeping those people from returning, so they couldn’t vote, and the Gatekeeper knew this?
He knew they were coming so stalled until they got there and then he opened the circle so they can come in. It comes back to what Bob said about him. He kinda predicted the future ! I don't think Merlin knew anything about this ,he just wanted to get it over with!
47. The “Doom of Damocles”? That doesn’t sound good, though Harry shrugs it off. Mostly, I worry that Molly will get Harry killed. Thoughts?
I hope not , but she will rebel against the rules and will put Harry in danger
48. So, Michael knew about Lasciel’s coin all along! Ha! All that worry for nothing. And he saw big Harry prevent little Harry from picking it up. Michael then tells Harry that giving up magic will help – but, if Harry did that, whatever would happen with Molly?
He will find another way to get rid of Lasciel
49. Oh, Molly! The little temptress apprentice. Was he too harsh with her, or did he need to be to get his point across? He was certainly very honest. I had to laugh over, “And no, ah, solo exploration either.” LOL!
I LOLed too! He did the right thing
50. Eep! Murphy lost her job with SI and was demoted to Sergeant! Holy crap, that sucks. And her partner will be Rawlins, who knew her father. Thoughts.
So he knew her father , what's bad about that? I don't get it
51. Whatever did Murphy say to Thomas about Harry in the car? Is there still hope for a Karrin Murphy♥Harry Dresden connection?
Yes what did she say?! I want Harry to find somebody new and I want Murphy and Kinkaid together !
52. Who snuck in past Harry’s wards and fixed little Chicago?
I had another thought this morning . Lasciel? Can she do that?
53. Harry talked with Ebenezar and he doesn’t think all this was Mab’s doing, but that she, herself, was being used. Who do you suspect: Morgan, Injun Joe, the Merlin, Ancient Mai, or someone else entirely? A Black Council? So, does that mean there is more than one traitor? Whatever, Ebenezar and Harry go out for a bite to eat, so it looks like their relationship is repaired, right?
I liked that after what Harry went through for Molly , he decided to forgive Ebenezer. He saw what a big sacrifice Ebenezer had made for him
@Lisa Kay#44S .Love that idea ,I wish they do it.
#46S.I have started to like Morgan too. I want to know what makes him tick !
#50S.Yes I figured you either were busy or weren't feeling well . Now we have very through DQs for the the last chapters :)
@ ShoShoresponse to second set of Chapter 40 – end questions
Thanks for taking the time to answer my second set, Shosho! Yes, I was both – busy and sick. **sigh** I got up super early and didn't even think to check on-line first. **smacks forehead** I was just in guilt mode.
#42 – He (or she) must be one powerful entity.
#44 – ☺
#45 – Very true!
#46 – Okay, I’ll go with that. Makes perfect sense, after you reminded me about Bob. I glad you’re starting to like Morgan, too.
#47 – Yeah, definitely.
#50 – Not necessarily a bad thing, but he’ll have info on her father. (But it sucks she got demoted.)
#51 – I think someone **coughShoShocough** has a crush on Kinkaid?
#52 – Well, I wondered the same thing. Can she do that? That was my first guess, but I don’t think she can. Then I remember Harry avoiding answering Molly about who did his housekeeping, and thought of the fairies. Maybe not them, but they could have let someone in.
#53 – Yes, I understood him not letting it go before, but this seems like the right time and set-up forgiveness.
Lisa Kay wrote: "@ ShoShoresponse to second set of Chapter 40 – end questions
#51 – I think someone **coughShoShocough** has a crush on Kinkaid?"
Heeehee !Is it that obvious?
Little bit. ☺
Lisa Kay wrote: "Little bit. ☺"But I have a huge crush on harry too!
Well... that's a given. LOL!
I see my answers to chapters 23-30 didn't get posted - the trials and tribulations of working on the iPad.Anyway, here they are again:
Lauren's Answers to Lisa Kay’s Questions for Chapters 23 – 30
19. No good deed goes unpunished - seems to be the motto of this book. Yes, it was a good idea so of course it backfired on poor Harry
Lauren? you might want to try again!
Hmmm... it doesn't seem to like me :0(Trying again:
Lauren's Answers to Lisa Kay's Questions for Chapters 23-30
19. No good deed goes unpunished - seems to be the motto of this book. Yes, it was a good idea so of course it backfired on poor Harry :0(
20. I don't think Molly has a crush on Harry. I think she is trying to manipulate him. Have I already said that I can't stand Charity. She immediately jumps to the wrong conclusion. Someone really needs to get the stick out from her behind!
21. I'm suspicious of Nelson but then I'm suspicious of everyone. Wouldn't be surprised if Nelson was the bait in some trap without him being aware of it.
22. I wonder if these are creatures from actual movies, if not, they should be, lol!
Yes, Harry's excess of guilt is manifesting itself yet again.
23. Yes he did! Love it!
24. I was so upset when I thought Mouse was killed! I went to the web to see if it was really true. I also might have stopped then and there. Thankfully he's fine and also comes to the rescue!
I had no idea who they were other than the fact they were smarmy!
25. I guess Arianna isn't happy to be a widow. I wonder if we will be seeing more of her... The White Council are a bunch of bureaucrats but on this I actually do agree - no negotiating with terrorists. That doesn't mean you can't send in the wizard equivalent of the Navy SEALS to kick butt!
26. Lascuel would have died too if something had happened to Harry so I'm not sure. That said, it is not a good idea to rely on her too much.
27. I wasn't expecting Thomas. I thought it might be Ebenezer who came to the rescue. Thomas has some really nasty family members... I guess having Harry for a brother must be a relief.
28. I missed that! Although there is something special about Mouse other than the obvious dogginess :0)
29. Don't know. Whoever he is working for is obviously helping with the hunger either with a source of sustenance or a cure.
30. Certainly looks that way. I wonder why?
31. I actually wasn't surprised by this. Does anyone else think Molly may be the summoner?
32. Yes. He's a really good listener.
Lauren ,in answer to some of your answer the only thing that comes to my mind is an evil laugh !so here you go
Muhaahaaahhaaaaaa
BTW , how far are you?
Lol!I'm at the bit where they are using Charity's blood to find Molly.
My dad is still in hospital:0( I'm hoping they will release him after the weekend. He's at that place where he is not well enough to go home but not sick enough to forget he's in hospital.
@ Lauren#20 – FOFLMBO! Lauren!
#21 – Oh…ShoSho’s evil laugh comes in handy here: “Muhaahaaahhaaaaaa !”
#24 – Yes, I almost stopped, too. ♥Mouse♥
#25 – I’m thinking we’ll see more of Arianna, I just don’t know when. I agree with you. Hey, have you had time to see Captain Phillips with Tom Hanks? I saw it opening day; loved it.
#26 – Yes, ‘she’ would have. Isn’t it creepy how Lasciel keeps calling Harry ‘my host’? Eep.
#27 – LMOB! Really!
#29 – Oh, really? That didn’t seep into my head enough, but I think you’re right.
#32 – Time for ShoSho’s evil laugh again: “Muhaahaaahhaaaaaa !”
@Lisa Kay#21 - ooooh! Now I'm even more intrigued by the shared evil laugh ;0)
#25 - haven't seen it yet but I'm definitely going to. I love Tom Hanks!
#26 - yes, it kind of freaks me out and reminds me that she's nothing but a parasite *shudder*
@ Lauren#25 - Yes, me too. He'll probably get another Oscar nom.
Wow! That good huh. I'll go and see it as soon as I can - father and hospital permitting.
That good. I don't know how an actor can convey grief and happiness (view spoiler) at the same time. Amazing.
Lauren's Answers to ShoSho's Questions for Chapter 31-3933. I'm still not a fan of Charity and nothing can excuse her behavior toward Harry but the revelation regarding her magical ability and her past does make me understand where she's coming from a little more - she has first hand experience with the dangers of magic and wants to protect her family. It does, however, make her a little bit of a hypocrite though.
34. I seem to remember a comment in book #3 that Michael met Charity when he saved her from a dragon. I guess this is the story - very Arthurian, lol!
35. It sounds like Molly came into her magic and had no one to help her (her mother was determined to stifle her abilities). I do have to wonder why Molly didn't go to Harry for help with her magic?
Yes, she's broken the laws of magic by invading her friends' minds. Technically she should suffer the same punishment as the boy in the beginning but somehow I don't think that is going to happen. You're probably right ShoSho - Harry will offer to mentor Molly like Ebenezer did for him.
36. I really like how Harry stood up to Lasciel. It shows that he is still his own person and she hasn't gotten her claws in too deep - yet :0/
37. Lol! I love Bob!
38. No idea yet. I knew it wouldn't be Harry - he doesn't have enough faith to be a knight. Murphy is a good candidate though.
39. Not all that surprised, she is the wife of a knight after all.
Yes, Harry is still fixating on the womens' assets.
41. Harry is becoming quite skilled at finding the loopholes in the fae's machinations. Very clever of Lilly to send the butterfly along although it does seem to have led Harry from the frying pan into the fire because now the Wild Hunt is after him :0(
40. Hmmm...no idea. It will be interesting to find out though.
41.Not surprised that Harry left the Winter Knight. On the one hand, Harry feels sorry for him but the Knight deserves his punishment and on the other hand, wouldn't killing the Knight, even to put him out of his misery, be murder? Harry can't do that.
Lea seems to be possessed by something so he couldn't free her either. In fact, the real Lea asked him not to.
I think that it is Mab in the statue - my question is: Did someone put her there (perhaps the same force that killed the trolls) or did she enter the statue herself (perhaps to protect herself from the troll killer)? If its the second, then why is she still in it?
For every question that is answered, a new one pops up :0)
@Lisa Kay#33. I also liked that she was finally being honest with Harry - maybe she will be less critical of him now that he has helped her.
#34. I think it is a real dragon not a metaphor. Michael rescued Charity from the dragon that Gregor tried to sacrifice her to.
@Lauren #34. I have to go back and check. I'll post it here if I do.
#35.You'll see:D
#41.I hope there is more about what's wrong with Lea in the next book.
I thought about how and why Mab was there.
This book left so many unanswered questions !
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