The Sword and Laser discussion
Help me find some progressive Epic Fantasy!
Jeez just finding non grim epic fantasy nowadays is hard enough, but you want progressive too. I just checked my entire read list and came up with nothing without delving into web-fiction, and foreign works.
Well, I'm 100% certain you've already read it but --- Ursula Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea. The main characters are people of color (despite what a terrible TV adaptation did to it) and if you read beyond the first book, it's definitely not gender regressive (the first book has a standard teen-aged boy protagonist).
I'm having a hard to find something progressive and not grim from my list. The Malazan series is progressive but very grim. Plenty of women who are fighters, people of color, some homosexual characters. I'm currently reading Three Parts Dead. Progressive but not epic. The main characters are a black woman who is a necromancer/lawyer, her female lawyer boss, and a male monk.
I don't know about progressive relationships, but I love Brandon's Stormlight Archives. There are parts that are a bit dark (there's a plot line from the point of view of slaves). I'm not sure where your grim threshold sits.
You should check out N.K. Jemisin, who is on the ball and rather good at that sort of thing.China Miéville is certainly not High Fantasy but is pretty damned epic, and should fulfill your requirements. Definitely check out his New Crobuzon books, starting with the stunning Perdido Street Station. Still a little grim at times, but well worth a read.
Check out Lynn Flewelling books. They aren’t overly progressive but they have strong female characters. I recommend the Tamír triad over the Nightrunner books. Although the Nightrunner sereis has a gay couple as main characters, but the first few books are rather stereotypical fantasy and can be off-putting.
You should check out Stephanie Swainston's Fourlands series, she wrote it partly as a response to all the conservative commercial fantasy out there.
I was recently impressed by Champion of the Rose, a fantasy series in which same-sex marriages are extremely common and best I can tell, everyone's bi by default. No help on persons on color, however. And no genderqueer folks. And maybe not all that epic, as it deals largely with a single kingdom and its people.
Robert wrote: "I don't know about progressive relationships, but I love Brandon's Stormlight Archives. There are parts that are a bit dark (there's a plot line from the point of view of slaves). I'm not sure wher..."Sanderson is pretty decisively in the not grim area of epic fantasy...but progressive, not really.
The Vlad Taltos series. Maybe not very representative in terms of POCs and sexual identities (though Brust's gradually addressing those in the later books), but really good at gender representation. That might not be very obvious at first, as the main character Vlad is a member of the setting's organized crime syndicate (the House of Jhereg), which seems to be the only institution split along gender lines. But Vlad's allies and enemies alike are as likely to be male as female, and all are extremely capable and powerful. There's some interesting subtext too, as Vlad's a member of the oppressed human minority in an empire ruled by elves. But he's also sold out to the elven power structure, so he's benefiting from a system that oppresses his people. These might skew too young-adult for some tastes, but I consider them good reads:
Graceling
Throne of Glass
Poison Study
Swordspoint/The Privilege of the Sword
Dara wrote: "I'm currently reading Three Parts Dead. Progressive but not epic."
It's not "epic" in the traditional sense of the Chosen One going on a world-spanning quest to stop the Dark Lord, no. But Gladstone's mainly inspired by Discworld, in that he's building a large, diverse world where some characters appear in multiple places, and large-scale events can affect different places far away, but different things can be happening in different places. If Discworld is close enough to epic fantasy for Barak, I'd highly recommend the Craft Sequence to him too.
Aaron wrote: "...Sanderson is pretty decisively in the not grim area of epic fantasy...but progressive, not really. "But to be fair, he's one of the few epic fantasy writers to have women as central viewpoint characters who share equal or greater narrative time with the men. In that sense, I think he is progressive.
Do Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion books count as epic? They certainly aren't grim and their politics isn't regressive, though they are more mainstream liberal than progressive.
Joe Informatico wrote: "The Vlad Taltos series. Maybe not very representative in terms of POCs and sexual identities (though Brust's gradually addressing those in the later books), but really good at gender representation..."I didn't know he was so inspired by Discworld. I knew he was inspired by the 2008 financial crisis. I'm learning so much today!
Alan wrote: "Do Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion books count as epic? They certainly aren't grim and their politics isn't regressive, though they are more mainstream liberal than progressive."I've only read Paladin of Souls, but I liked it. It certainly isn't grim, but I don't know how progressive it is. Not that it's regressive, as the OP says, just not particularly progressive. Middle of the road, maybe?
It's a little deeper (not sure if that's the right word) than Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga, exploring some philosophical/theological ideas through an interesting culture containing multiple gods and a protagonist who's not only a woman, but middle-aged.
Paladin of Souls also won the Hugo, Nebula, and Locus awards, if that sort of thing matters for you.
Come to think of it, I'm probably due for a reread.
Brendan wrote: "You should check out Stephanie Swainston's Fourlands series, she wrote it partly as a response to all the conservative commercial fantasy out there."Good call! I only ever read The Year of Our War but recently picked up No Present Like Time, so am planning to start at the beginning and read the lot.
I just finished and enjoyed God's War by Kameron Hurley. I think it fits your requirements. It's the first of a trilogy. Hurley is currently writing a new trilogy. The first book is out, The Mirror Empire.
Mark wrote: "I just finished and enjoyed God's War by Kameron Hurley. I think it fits your requirements. It's the first of a trilogy. Hurley is currently writing a new trilogy. T..."Progressive? Very. Grim? Also very. At least Mirror Empire is. Maybe God's War is sunshine and rainbows, I haven't read it.
Ben wrote: "Come to think of it, I'm probably due for a reread. "She just announced that there's going to be a new novella in that universe soon!
https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog...
The Vorkosigan saga is quite progressive. But it's scifi. It's kind of epic, though. It's not usually grim in tone overall but there are a couple of grim scenes here and there. It's my favorite scifi series ever, where Discworld is my favorite fantasy series.
Brendan wrote: "Mark wrote: "I just finished and enjoyed God's War by Kameron Hurley. I think it fits your requirements. It's the first of a trilogy. Hurley is currently writing a n..."Let's look at Barak's list
1. It's really grim
2. It's really regressive
3. Both
1. Ok. A bit grim. Well... you're right. Very grim.
2. Very progressive, with a cast of characters that don't follow standard tropes and are very interesting too.
3. Not both.
So. 2 out of 3? :-P
Possibly Kate Elliott's Crossroads trilogy? Spirit Gate. A variety of cultures and colors, and while most of the main characters were still hetro, I think there were some exceptions seen, and some variation culture to culture on gender/behavior expectations.And while it's less epic, the Raksura books by Martha Wells are fun, ( The Cloud Roads ) although the characters are non-humans. Tilts slightly toward progressive, in small subtle ways.
Neither series is especially grim.
Agreed on the Riverside books by Ellen Kushner, and I don't consider Swordspoint or The Fall of the Kings as YA. Privilege of the Sword? ...Kind of.Not really epic fantasy, however, in that there's barely any magic.
WOW!So many great suggestions!
Thank you all so much. I'm going to bookmark this thread and start reading through your suggestions.
Epic to me means something other than what I'm going to suggest but my favorite progressive fantasy would include:Who Fears Death by Nnedi Okorafor
Palimpsest by Catherynne M. Valente
Maybe some of the N.K. Jemisin? I liked The Killing Moon quite a bit.
Have you tried The Steel Remains - Richard K. Morgan ?Definitely progressive as far as the main character is concerned and although there are a few of the usual supporting character types the series is a good read.
He also does SF, though not having read these I can't recommend them...somebody else may do, however...
Adrian wrote: "Have you tried The Steel Remains - Richard K. Morgan ?Definitely progressive as far as the main character is concerned and although there are a few of the usual suppo..."
He wanted it to be non-grim, and A land fit for heroes is grimmer than grim I think ;) That said, it's a fantastic series!
I think that The Eternal Sky Trilogy -Range of Ghosts, Shattered Pillars and Steles of the Sky - by Elizabeth Bear would fit those requirements.
I haven't read this so I'm not sure if it's Grim or not, but Tales of Nevèrÿon by Samuel R. Delanylooks like it would fit the criteria.
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Epic to me means something other than what I'm going to suggest but my favorite progressive fantasy would include:Who Fears Death by Nnedi Okorafor
Palimpsest by Cat..."
I've read those other two and i wouldnt call them epic fantasy, but yeah certainly progressive. I really need to read some Jemisin books though, she gets recommended so often.
I wonder if the "epic" isn't directly opposed to the "progressive."
I think Mirror Empire is a great blueprint for progressive epic fantasy, but I agree it takes actual effort to overcome the genre's inherent conservative leanings.
Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I wonder if the "epic" isn't directly opposed to the "progressive.""Epic Fantasy does tend to be hidebound and conservative. That's one of the reasons for the dreaded sameness of it all.
The Demon Cycle by Peter V. Brett might sort of scratch that itch. It's certainly epic, has some progressive elements (although not a ton, but women are leaders and there are gay characters), and not overly grim.Four of the five books are already published.
The Warded Man
The Desert Spear
The Daylight War
The Skull Throne
I thought the treatment of middle eastern culture was a little stereotypical myself...I couldn't stomach it and gave up in the middle of the desert spear. But it could have been that the narrator was just overly manly and angry sounding.
REALLY I would of said isn't that series a bit...umm grim/dark. Not the middle eastern culture was a bit stereotypical, and the western culture wasn't? Also just because it features strong women characters really isn't progressive now a-days.Trike wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I wonder if the "epic" isn't directly opposed to the "progressive.""
Epic Fantasy does tend to be hidebound and conservative. That's one of the reasons for the dreaded..."
Really I think it's more whenever progressivy authors write epic fantasy it's very grim/gritty. Also you have all those annoying world building problems.
edit: I really shouldn't just be picking on this one...honestly it's probably a better/closer suggestion then most of the others in the thread.
Trike wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I wonder if the "epic" isn't directly opposed to the "progressive.""Epic Fantasy does tend to be hidebound and conservative. That's one of the reasons for the dreaded..."
I'd gently beg to differ - that the 'most popular' and widespread titles may fit such a mold, but if you look a half-step off the beaten track, there are many many efforts by a ton of talent to write outside of the box. This has been happening for years, in every regard, and against popular perception - just - the audience may not have been ready for it, or, the books were not in high profile for visibility enough - and such efforts fell into the margin.
Malazan by Erikson
Martha Wells' Ile Rien, and her raksura books.
Barbara Hambly's incredible work.
Stephen Barnes, ditto.
Heather Gladney's Teot's War and Bloodstorm
Karin Lowachee's Gaslight Dogs
Judith Tarr's Avaryan Rising
R. A. MacAvoy
Rosemary Kirstein's Steerswoman series
Ricardo Pinto's Stone Dance of the Chameleon series
Jane Gaskell's Atlan
Susan Schwartz' Silk Road
Barry Hughart's work
and dozens more, these are just off the top of my head.
Sky wrote: "I thought the treatment of middle eastern culture was a little stereotypical myself...I couldn't stomach it and gave up in the middle of the desert spear. But it could have been that the narrator ..."Stereotypical for what? It doesn't map onto any current Middle Eastern society and is more analogous to Arabian Nights-era culture, with its kinda-sorta pre-Islam caliphate structure. (Which I recognize is an oxymoron, but Jardir is a Fantasy mash-up of people like Darius the Great and medieval caliphs.) Especially once you get to Daylight War and you see how women are tremendously influential, sometimes even the true power behind everything. The really astute women basically let the men think they're running things, but the interplay is more complex than that.
Fantasy is inherently regressive by nature of its basic assumptions -- feudal social structures, people being born with innate (often inherited) magical abilities, racial essentialism, and a slavish devotion to the Great Man theory of history. Even authors who claim to be subverting these elements end up playing within the rule book instead of trying to imagine republican governments, magic that's available to anyone, orcs who like growing tulips, and ordinary people who try to get on with their lives in the wake of epochal world-historical events.Trike wrote: "Stereotypical for what? It doesn't map onto any current Middle Eastern society and is more analogous to Arabian Nights-era culture, with its kinda-sorta pre-Islam caliphate structure."
Which is exactly the sort of thing Edward Said was complaining about when he coined the term "Orientalism".
Sean wrote: "Which is exactly the sort of thing Edward Said was complaining about when he coined the term "Orientalism". "I don't see how that applies. Brett isn't diminishing or simplifying Middle Eastern culture, he's created one that vaguely resembles aspects of an ancient society, and his version is complex, populated by complicated characters.
Besides, if we're going to complain about "imperfect mapping" when it comes to Fantasy and culture, you aren't going to find anything suitable to read. The typical medieval European stuff isn't accurate, nor are the various Middle Ages/Elizabethan/Victorian pastiches. Heck, even Charles de Lint's Ottawa analogue in his Newford stories isn't exact, and he was writing those about the place he was living in at the time.
Janny wrote: "Trike wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "I wonder if the "epic" isn't directly opposed to the "progressive.""Epic Fantasy does tend to be hidebound and conservative. That's one of the reasons for the dreaded..."
I'd gently beg to differ - that the 'most popular' and widespread titles may fit such a mold, but if you look a half-step off the beaten track, there are many many efforts by a ton of talent to write outside of the box. This has been happening for years, in every regard, and against popular perception - just - the audience may not have been ready for it, or, the books were not in high profile for visibility enough - and such efforts fell into the margin.
Malazan by Erikson
Martha Wells' Ile Rien, and her raksura books.
Barbara Hambly's incredible work.
Stephen Barnes, ditto.
Heather Gladney's Teot's War and Bloodstorm
Karin Lowachee's Gaslight Dogs
Judith Tarr's Avaryan Rising
R. A. MacAvoy
Rosemary Kirstein's Steerswoman series
Ricardo Pinto's Stone Dance of the Chameleon series
Jane Gaskell's Atlan
Susan Schwartz' Silk Road
Barry Hughart's work
and dozens more, these are just off the top of my head.
."
Thanks Janny. I'm happy for you to differ because fantasy isn't really my jam, but I'm always curious to learn about titles and authors I haven't heard of before. Great list.
Wait I just realized that I read this not too long ago and it's specifically about a completely egalitarian society which doesn't even use gendered pronouns:
Per Sean and Trike's discussion: I feel like some writers (to name Mary Robinette Kowal for example) are too concerned with the spectre of appropriation at this point. Writers might make mistakes when inventing new cultures but it would be death if people started playing it safe because they were afraid of making mistakes. Haven't read Peter Brett so I have no opinion on his series specifically, but as a general point I'd rather read interesting failures than boring successes.
Trike wrote: "Stereotypical for what? It doesn't map onto any current Middle Eastern society and is more analogous to Arabian Nights-era culture, with its kinda-sorta pre-Islam caliphate structure. (Which I recognize is an oxymoron, but Jardir is a Fantasy mash-up of people like Darius the Great and medieval caliphs.) Especially once you get to Daylight War and you see how women are tremendously influential, sometimes even the true power behind everything. The really astute women basically let the men think they're running things, but the interplay is more complex than that. "I may be picking on this one example too much, the whole book just kind of rubbed me the wrong way - it felt like it was written (or maybe narrated?) by a over-testosteronized 17 year old. But many people love it. I tried to love it. I lost the love after 75% of book 1 and tried but couldn't make it through book 2.
Maybe try book 3. Much of it goes over the same story from the perspective of Inevera. It seriously deflates any of the testosteroniness of the second one as you get a fuller story.But hey, if you don't like it, you don't like it. I was impressed by it because stories about the Middle East or its fantasy equivalents rarely hold any appeal for me, yet I enjoyed those books quite a bit. They won me over after starting off in a hole.
Trike wrote: "Maybe try book 3. Much of it goes over the same story from the perspective of Inevera. It seriously deflates any of the testosteroniness of the second one as you get a fuller story.But hey, if yo..."
Thanks Trike, I might give it a shot again in print, when my TOREAD list whittles down some more :)
Janny wrote: "Barbara Hambly's incredible work.."Oh yes. Her Sun Wolf and Starhawk series is AMAZING. Definitely subverts the mercenary fantasy tropes in a really fun and well written way. One of my all time favorites. Starts with The Ladies of Mandrigyn
Sean wrote: "Fantasy is inherently regressive by nature of its basic assumptions -- feudal social structures, people being born with innate (often inherited) magical abilities, racial essentialism, and a slavis..."Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at with world building problems. There are a decent number of modernish fantasy worlds where it's our world+magic, that are all those things, but in general they don't have demon kings or evil overlords that need to be toppled. Unless it's all hidden from society but then it's urban/contemporary fantasy.
There do need to be more magic countries that are more modern, instead of comedy amounts of people working in agriculture when magic could greatly reduce the number of people required.
Question for people: when you think of "epic fantasy" is it a requirement that it be secondary world fiction, and pre-gunpowder? Can either of those two rules be broken?
Have a look at Promise of Blood - Brian McClellanA post gunpowder world with magic and I would certainly class it as epic in scope. It's also a damn good read...!
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
A Dream of John Ball (other topics)God's War (other topics)
The Irregular at Magic High School, Vol. 1: Enrollment Arc, Part I (other topics)
World Trigger, Vol. 1 (other topics)
A Certain Magical Index, Vol. 1 (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Andrew Ashling (other topics)Kameron Hurley (other topics)
Brian McClellan (other topics)
Brian McClellan (other topics)
Samuel R. Delany (other topics)
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This is another recommendation-seeking thread, so if you're not into that, move right along.
I'm a long-time Sword, but lately (in the past year or so) I find myself reading way more Laser than Sword. In an effort to find my groove again, I tried picking up a few Epic Fantasy titles that I heard came highly recommended, but I find that one of three things always turn me off:
1. It's really grim
2. It's really regressive
3. Both
By regressive I mean that it's the kind of Epic Fantasy that seems to be very committed to maintaining a lot of the traditional tropes of Epic Fantasy, particularly that Men be Men (TM), and Women be Women. Almost all relationships are heterosexual, there are few or no people of color, etc. etc.
So, recommend me! Can anyone suggest some Epic Fantasy series that aren't super depressing, and also include some more progressive ways of presenting characters and relationships?
(I probably explained myself really badly, but I'd appreciate advice more than I'd appreciate arguments)