Help me find some progressive Epic Fantasy!

[Dara]

Adrian wrote: "Have a look at Promise of Blood - Brian McClellan
A post gunpowder world with magic and I would certainly class it as epic in scope. It's also a damn good read...!"

I wouldn't call it progressive. There aren't any female main characters in the first book. The most prominent woman is a mute. I'm pretty sure the main characters are all white men (I read this back in January so I could be mistaken).

[Adrian]

Dara wrote: "I wouldn't call it progressive...."

Fair enough, but Brendan asked about the rules of 'Epic' fantasy. I think you can do Epic fantasy in a post-gunpowder world, so there isn't anything stopping someone going beyond the sterotypes and adding some more progressive elements. If anyone knows of any I'd love to read it.

[Trike]

Brendan wrote: "Question for people: when you think of "epic fantasy" is it a requirement that it be secondary world fiction, and pre-gunpowder? Can either of those two rules be broken?"

That is what I think of, because that comprises the bulk of the subgenre.

But any rule can be broken. The only issue then becomes one of "have you created a new subgenre?" For instance, Horror became a genre once there were a number of people like Poe pushing the boundaries of Gothic fiction (often called Gothic Romance, but that confuses people who think of Harlequin Romances).

[Sean]

Brendan wrote: "Question for people: when you think of "epic fantasy" is it a requirement that it be secondary world fiction,

No, though fitting epicness into the real world and still having it recognizable as the real world is difficult. Usually it's either done in cross-world stories (i.e., the Dark Tower), mythic ages (Conan, Kull, etc.) or the distant future (Dying Earth).

For stories set in the here and now, there aren't a lot in Western fantasy (Harry Potter would qualify, especially the last book), but it's quite common in Japanese fiction of all kind -- World Trigger, Fate/Zero, A Certain Magical Index, Mahouka.

and pre-gunpowder?"

There's gunpowder in Lord of the Rings (it's how the Uruk-hai breach the wall at Helm's Deep) and you'd be hardpressed to argue that Stephen King's Dark Tower series isn't epic fantasy. Even if you use a highly restrictive definition that the story must be set in a pseudo-medieval world, gunpowder was used throughout Eurasia in the Middle Ages, even in backwaters like England and France.

[Aaron]

Sean wrote: "Brendan wrote: "Question for people: when you think of "epic fantasy" is it a requirement that it be secondary world fiction,

No, though fitting epicness into the real world and still having it re..."

You also forgot secret hidden magic world, see most Urban Fantasy, Fate/Zero also falls under that category.

[G. Derek]

Brendan wrote: "Mark wrote: "I just finished and enjoyed God's War by Kameron Hurley. I think it fits your requirements. It's the first of a trilogy. Hurley is currently writing a n..."

Mirror Empire is phenomenal! Yes it's super-grim, but if you're looking for something progressive and mold-breaking for world building it's freaking great.

[Brendan]

It's an accurate point though, I'd forgotten that a ton of Japanese epic fantasy takes place in our time and world, and they also in pop culture works seem to not differentiate much between sci-fi and fantasy.

Also, Sean, were you able to stand Mahouka at all? I was only able to watch a couple episodes because I found it probably the most insanely right-wing thing I've ever watched. I know there's a normal background level of racism and misogyny to anime but this was way beyond even that. The main character spent like an entire episode on a rant about how Japanese people were the greatest and foreigners/left-wingers are only looking for handouts.

[Aaron]

Brendan wrote: "It's an accurate point though, I'd forgotten that a ton of Japanese epic fantasy takes place in our time and world, and they also in pop culture works seem to not differentiate much between sci-fi ..."

I'm current on the books, I agree that the writing/narration is very much like that. But if you read between the lines Japan is clearly a dystopian society and one of the things I like about it is how it's mostly ignored because they grew up in that society and are part of the privileged class. In fact the only nation that they have had contact with that seems moderately not a dystopian is the USNA...and even they are apparently worse then their current incarnation. In case it wasn't also apparent, the whole world is in a cold war, and in a magical arms race. This is of course ignoring all the problems the plot and characters.

[Sean]

Brendan wrote: "Also, Sean, were you able to stand Mahouka at all? I was only able to watch a couple episodes because I found it probably the most insanely right-wing thing I've ever watched."

I think I got up to episode 3 before I dropped it, though from what I've heard, the books might be worth hate-reading due to how ridiculous the nationalism gets. (view spoiler)[From what I understand, the series is banned in China because at one point the hero nukes a Chinese city with magic. (hide spoiler)]

[Aaron]

Sean wrote: "Brendan wrote: "Also, Sean, were you able to stand Mahouka at all? I was only able to watch a couple episodes because I found it probably the most insanely right-wing thing I've ever watched."

I t..."

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it was in the anime.

(view spoiler)[ Also it was a Chinese Fleet that was moving to invade Japan, not a city in China. Of course they also made the Chinese government like super evil in the books and it's not hidden behind a thin veil of narrator bias like Japan's "Government".

In China the mages are the literally property of the state and they routinely perform horrible experiments that kill them all the time.

While Japan is controlled by a open shadow government made of a cabal of the top 10 family mages. Which basically make Japan like 10 families>100 families>magic user>non magic user.

SUPER SPOILERS from after the anime
(view spoiler)[
The joke is Japan and most of the other countries do these experiments as well they just have the courtesy to sweep them under the rug. Both Tatsuya and Miyuki and about half the main cast are the results of some program that either fucked with their genes/magic flow/other things when they were conceived/fetus/baby/child these programs often had very high fatality/accident rates and many of them were covered up. This combined with arranged marriages being a former cultural thing that was brought back strongly is how Japan manages to be one of best at producing topnotch mages.
(hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[John (Taloni)]

^spoiler tags require greater than / less than signs on this board.

Like this. (view spoiler)[Spoilers! (hide spoiler)]

[Aaron]

Brendan wrote: "Question for people: when you think of "epic fantasy" is it a requirement that it be secondary world fiction, and pre-gunpowder? Can either of those two rules be broken?"

Epic fantasy to me is something that occurs in a magical world where the protagonist team has to stop an evil that has influence over a large portion of the world. Considering the fact that magic or the supernatural somehow has to play a role secondary world fantasy is...almost a must, I feel like alternate history (we found magic) and current times we found magic are possible but more rare. What I don't consider epic fantasy normally is when you have the urbanfantasy/contemporary fantasy where the magic is kept secret from everyone else.

[Teadragon]

Let me second the Wizard of Earthsea recommendation! Also, any other Ursula K. Le Guin.

David Brin's Glory Season is SF, but you might enjoy it.

Others have already mentioned Ellen Kushner's Riverside trilogy. If you like old faerie ballads, you might also read Kushner's novelization of Thomas the Rhymer.

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon. It is the story of a female Paladin, and is superb.

If you do not mind young-adult stuff, then a few select books by Mercedes Lackey may fit the bill. The Oathbound/Oathbreakers duology is one of her best works. Also, her Magic's Pawn/Magic's Promise/Magic's Price trilogy.

Also, The Hero and the Crown by Robin McKinley. The daughter who is a natural swordsman/hero.

They are old now, but any of the old Sword and Sorceress short story anthology series, edited by Marion Zimmer Bradley, back in the day, are great choices. Also, although much of Bradley's work (Darkover books) takes place on an alien planet, I'd recommend anything by her. Her Mists of Avalon is excellent female-centered Arthurian stuff. Also, her Firebrand is the story of Troy, but from the prophetess Cassandra's point of view.

Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel fantasy series was quite well done, if an acquired taste.

[Kristen]

I immediately thought of Mercedes Lackey as well. I know that Lynn Levelling also represents a broader spectrum of sexuality/gender identity in her writing. I've only just started reading her books, so I can't make any guarantees, but I've enjoyed them so far!

[Carl]

Hard to get both sword and laser in the same epic but I'll recommend 2 by CJ Cherryh. They're pretty good but I can't tell whether they're sci/fi or fantasy which seems to be what you're looking for and all her other books are progressive socially so I think these were too. (Been a long time since I read them)

The Faded Sun: Kesrith (1978) – Hugo and Locus SF Award nominee, 1979;[10] Nebula Award nominee, 1978, Vol 1 of "The Faded Sun" trilogy.

Gate of Ivrel (1976), Vol 1 of "The Morgaine Stories".

She's written probably 30 books since those, 25 of them being Sci/Fi and 5 or so Fantasy, I like her Sci/Fi more and in fact around 1990, NASA named something for her as a thank you for "show how space would likely get explored".

[Carl]

Eh, why not hehe.... Here's my "best" epic fantasy and epic sci fi list. What I've loved.

FANTASY

We don't normally bother to mention JRR Tolkien... He's sort of a give for a fantasy reader.

Thought I'd mention which books by these authors because it's not always "all" books, just like all of David Eddings books weren't as good as The Belgariad. In the order below I'd recommend these and you decide if you want to keep reading the author. Just because he/she/they wrote 1 or 3 or 8 excellent books doesn't mean everything they wrote was of the same quality.

Raymond E Feist - Riftwar Saga
1. Magician: Apprentice (1982)
2. Magician: Master (1982)
--- (Apprentice and Master are also found published together as "Magician")
3. Silverthorn (1985)
4. A Darkness at Sethanon (1985)

Tad Williams
Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
1. The Dragonbone Chair (1988)
2. The Stone of Farewell (1990)
3. To Green Angel Tower (1993)

Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman
Dragonlance Chronicles
1. Dragons of Autumn Twilight (1984)
2. Dragons of Winter Night (1985)
3. Dragons of Spring Dawning (1985)
Their Dragonlance Legends trilogy, 7 book Deathgate Cycle, original Darksword trilogy and original Rose of the Prophet trilogy are also very good.

Susan Dexter - Winter King's War
1. The Ring of Allaire (1981)
2. The Sword of Calandra (1985)
3. The Mountains of Channadran (1986)

Robert Jordan - Wheel of Time
all of it, some have various reasons to not like it but I do.

Dave Duncan - Man of His Word
1. Magic Casement (1990)
2. Faery Lands Forlorn (1991)
3. Perilous Seas (1991)
4. Emperor and Clown (1991)

Duncan's Seventh Sword trilogy is classic.
1. The Reluctant Swordsman (1988)
2. The Coming of Wisdom (1988)
3. The Destiny of the Sword (1988)

Dennis McKiernan
The Iron Tower
1. The Dark Tide (1984)
2. Shadows of Doom (1984)
3. The Darkest Day (1984)

Dennis McKiernan
The Silver Call
1. Trek to Kraggen-Cor (1986)
2. The Brega Path (1986)

Terry Brooks - Shannara
1. The Sword of Shannara (1977)
I like this. I liked the 2nd and 3rd ones too. Lots of people razz it because it "copies" LotR but I think that's because it was just the first and closest of many that did. So what? I was hungering for anything like LotR after reading it. Besides being a great story, it was the first fantasy novel to ever make the NY Times Bestselling List and is therefore somewhat responsible for a lot of writers writing fantasy. At least the ones that wanted money.

Patricia McKillip
Quest of the Riddle-Master
1. The Riddle-Master of Hed (1976)
2. Heir of Sea and Fire (1977)
3. Harpist in the Wind (1979)

Angus Wells
Godwars
1. Forbidden Magic (1991)
2. Dark Magic (1992)
3. Wild Magic (1993)

James Watt-Evans
Lords of Dus
1. The Lure of the Basilisk (1980)
2. The Seven Altars of Dusarra (1981)
3. The Sword of Bheleu (1982)
4. The Book of Silence (1983)

Ethshar
1. The Misenchanted Sword (1985)
2. With a Single Spell (1987)
3. The Unwilling Warlord (1989)

Jennifer Roberson
Sword-Dancer
1. Sword-Dancer (1986)
2. Sword-Singer (1988)
3. Sword-Maker (1989)
4. Sword Breaker (1991)

Elizabeth Moon
Deed of Paksenarrion
1. The Sheepfarmer's Daughter (1988)
2. Divided Allegiance (1988)
3. Oath of Gold (1988)

Terry Goodkind - Sword of Truth
1. Wizard's First Rule (1994)
2. Stone of Tears (1995)
3. Blood of the Fold (1996)
Continue if you like, they're mostly good but I think he hit his peak in book 2 or 3 and the violence and torture and sex got a little too graphic for my taste as he authored onward.

R A Salvatore
Icewind Dale trilogy
1. The Crystal Shard (1988)
2. Streams of Silver (1989)
3. The Halfling's Gem (1990)

Dark Elf trilogy
1. Homeland (1990)
2. Exile (1990)
3. Sojourn (1991)

George R R Martin (same kinda thing, a little darker)
Song of Ice and Fire
1. A Game of Thrones (1996)
2. A Clash of Kings (1998)
3. A Storm of Swords (2000)
4. A Feast for Crows (2005)
5. A Dance with Dragons (2008)

Kate Elliott
Crown of Stars
1. King's Dragon (1997)
2. Prince of Dogs (1997)
3. The Burning Stone (1998)
4. Child of Flame (2000)
5. The Gathering Storm (2003)
6. In the Ruins (2005)
7. Crown of Stars (2006)

Don Callander
Mancer
1. Pyromancer (1992)
2. Aquamancer (1992)
3. Geomancer (1994)
4. Aeromancer (1997)

Douglas Niles
Moonshae trilogy
1. Darkwalker on Moonshae (1987) (1st ever Forgotten Realms novel)
2. Black Wizards (1988)
3. Darkwell (1989)

Kate Novak & Jeff Grubb
Finder's Stone trilogy
1. Azure Bonds (1988)
2. The Wyvern's Spur (1990)
3. Song of the Saurials (1991)

Elizabeth Haydon
Symphony of Ages
1. Rhapsody: Child of Blood (1999)
2. Prophecy: Child of Earth (2000)
3. Destiny: Child of the Sky (2001)

Ursula Le Guin
Earthsea
1. A Wizard of Earthsea (1968)
2. The Tombs of Atuan (1970)
3. The Farthest Shore (1972)

Other great writers with similar style though not the very same quest trilogy etc type - Anne McCaffrey (combo fantasy/sci-fi), Stephen R. Donaldson (bit darker, heroes from another world), Robin Hobb, Terry Pratchett (bit lighter), Barbara Hambly (In her best stuff, the heroes come from another world etc.)
__________________

SCI/FI

Vernor Vinge (Fire In The Deep, A Deepness In The Sky)

Stephen R. Donaldson (The Gap Cycle, The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant The Unbeliever)

CJ Cherryh (The Pride of Chanur, Devil To The Belt duology, Downbelow Station)

David Brin (the Uplift Novels)

Issac Asimov (Foundation),

Lois McMaster Bujold (The Vor Game, Barrayar)

Neal Stephenson (Reamde, Snow Crash, System of the World),

Anne McCaffrey, (Dragonflight, Dragonquest)

Larry Niven (Ringworld, The Mote In God's Eye, Dream Park, Lucifer's Hammer)

John Varley (Titan),

Julian May (The Many Colored Land),

Frank Herbert (Dune),

Arthur C. Clark (Rendevous With Rama)

Frederick Pohl (Gateway)

Orson Scott Card (Ender's Game)

Philip Jose Farmer (To Your Scattered Bodies Go)

Connie Willis (Blackout/All Clear)

[Ronald]

This guy Andrew Ashling writes some very progressive epic fantasy. A lot of LGBT characters. The writing isn't bad. It gets a little too brutal for my taste at times, but depending on your tastes, it might be entertaining.

[[deleted user]]

William Morris was a socialist, so if you think that progressive you might enjoy his politics. He was writing quite some time ago, so his writing style is of that time. I quite like it, but it is not for everyone. His A Dream of John Ball: is a good work with a very pro worker theme.

[AndrewP]

Carl wrote: "Hard to get both sword and laser in the same epic but I'll recommend 2 by CJ Cherryh. They're pretty good but I can't tell whether they're sci/fi or fantasy which seems to be what you're looking f..."

Nice list Carl :) I say that because I have read a good 75% of them, or more.

[Kristen]

Shoot! That was Lynn Flewelling above. Auto correct strikes again.