Atlas Shrugged
discussion
What effect did this book have on you??
What conversation? 1,999....3,000...., or 5,000,000 pages of bloviation is still bloviation. Not really all that difficult to grasp.Although I do empathize with these feelings of fearing someone is always stealing your cookies and juice box. I know. It IS hard.
This book made me laugh.
I am 14 right now and I read Atlas Shrugged last year because my dad recommended it to me. He is a far right wing liberal who doesn't care if people are working to get a job and can't afford to pay their house bills and feed their families. He did not even read the book, he listened to it on audiobook while I read it because I hoped it would get better. But it didn't. Ayn Rand thinks that she is always right and that if you don't agree with her political views you are a filthy idiot. Somehow she even managed to create the illusion that adultery was okay. Dagne sleeps with like three different guys, one while she is married. And Ayn Rand is sssssoooooo boring. I highly doubt that people rant on and on about how money is not the source of all evil for five to eight pages. I hate Ayn Rand.
Janice wrote: "I was amazed of how much this book reflects our current state of affairs and that Ayn Rand was a bit of a prophet as well."Janice - my thoughts exactly! (except maybe for the prophet part).
I also agree with Lara's post... It is supposed to be FICTION. And the comment about “if people quit the world would shut down” - I believe Ayn Rand intended that to be symbolic. Of course everyone knows that it is a competitive world and that someone else is just waiting to take your spot - but what would happen if there were no one to take your spot and the country was run by incapable people??
Makes an interesting viewpoint...
Well Jennifer if there wasn't anyone to take your spot the government would just force schools to make the missing peoples occupations required curriculum for a handful of people. And our country is already run by quite a few incapable people as it is.
Enjolras wrote: "I am 14 right now and I read Atlas Shrugged last year because my dad recommended it to me. He is a far right wing liberal who doesn't care if people are working to get a job and can't afford to pay..."Congrats, you figured out that Ayn Rand is FoS at only 14 years of age. It usually takes an intelligent person longer to catch on. I confess I thought Rand was quite the sage when I first read her. But then I grew up and wised up. You are well ahead of the curve...
Gary wrote: "Rodrigo wrote: "The best part is Hugh Akston flipping hamburgers. We can do whatever we want to."The fact that he was also excellent at making burgers shows something that I've always believed. ..."
Totally agree. I work in a bar and see it all the time. People feel they are "bigger" than their jobs and therefor do not work hard. I can't stand this. I believe in hard work. NIce post.
Allan J. wrote: "Atlas Shugged was one of the most profound,insightful, and prophetic books I've ever read. Its message was transformative. I wish I'd read it at a younger age."Yup. Well put. I wish I read it earlier as well. I was 27 when I first read it. How old were you?
Andrew, Rand's philosophy doesn't support work ethic. I feel "bigger" than my job. I bet most people do. It's natural. It drives us to attain the next level, or should. That doesn't stop me from fervently doing the best job I can at my current responsibilities. I pride myself in perfection, and I cannot stand the drivel spouted by Rand. It promotes willful discarding of morality in economy and willful exploitation for profit to serve the self, rather than desire to improve the lives of self-and-others through hard work.
She's basically arguing for a license to be an asshole and feel good about it. A lot of people do feel good about themselves after reading her nonsense.
I think it just reinforces whatever preconceived view you already had about Ayn Rand and her philosophy.
I was 14 years old when I read it and was doing campaign work for Barry Goldwater, as did my mom and dad.Reading Atlas Shrugged and thinking about it afterward, turned me into a moderate liberal.
However, I am no longer moderate; I am as far left as can be imagined, all thanks to Ayn Rand.
And don't try to say that makes me a socialist or Communist as I'm unalterably opposed to both the theory and the practice of them.
I simply believe that it's good for people to help their friends in a time of need and that helping people in their times of need is the entire purpose of government.
Disaster relief. Building infrastructure. Providing for a fundamental (not fundamentalist) education. Providing a safety net for poor. Protecting its citizens. Regulating the economy by limiting or prosecuting the predators amongst us. Providing for the common good.
This book marked me as an immature twit desperate to pretend a seriousness that masked my total dependence on others for everything. Grow up even a tad and this piece of crapola goes straight-to-dumpster.
William wrote: "It is pretty much the same as Vonnegut's short story "Harrison Bergeron" only Vonnegut gets to the point a lot faster."no it's not. There is so much more to Atlas. Im a big fan of H.B. and teach the story in my class, but Atlas goes way beyond forced equality of people.
David wrote: "This book seduced me into the idea of ubermensch, that those who work hard (men or women), and have skill and talent, will rule the world. It taught me that how much money you make is a way to meas..."If the rich do not deserve their wealth who does deserve it? Lets not forget that Rand was not only criticizing non hard workers (Franscico) but also corrupt bureaucratic over power government... could this be part of the reason the hard workers you have observed don't receive their due? How is Atlas part of the problem? It teachers what you have should be earned and not given to you...is this something you disagree with?
I am amazed at how things are happening the way she wrote they would. And thanks to her insight (although fictional) - I can see the signs as they progress.
Brad wrote: "It teaches what you have should be earned and not given to you...Rand's depiction of characters choosing self-sacrifice over unearned rewards is what this book embodies for me. I attempt to live my life not taking gifts or favors. What I allow myself to take pride in, to enjoy, are those things I have earned by my own merit.
I teach and when my students show accomplishment, we celebrate because I offer no charity grades, no pity credit, no condescending inflated grades. Their success is a result of their hard work. This is what I want them to remember in life.
I don't know how much of that need to instill pride in one's accomplishments comes from my upbringing or Rand's work. I suppose they are a combined force.
Brad, what it "teachers" you is that wealth should be accumulated on one's own abilities, sure. What you're leaving out is that it suggests you do so at the expense of others in order to achieve your socioeconomic apex. Proponents of Rand often tout the reward-for-hard-work concept. I don't think there's anything wrong with reward-for-hard-work. I think modern society could do with more of that.
However, they often fail to realize the subtle but critically important detail that is the difference between meritocracy and capitalist exploitation. To spell it out in the simplest of terms (as often in this thread that becomes necessary, despite many intelligent contributors): Category A consists of people who want to rise to the top using any means necessary and believe socialist ideas to be antithetical to success and personal integrity. Category B consists of people who want to rise to the top while improving the base at the same time, or in order to do so, or by doing so. They promote social agenda through the use of their personal merits.
Rand's hardcore fans are in Category A, and tend to use her pseudo-philosophy as a crutch to support their greedy behavior.
The core issues arise when translating an ideological pseudo-philosophy into an applicable behavioral/legal model. It fails to account for so many initial conditions as to be fully unworkable, just as all idealistic concepts like pure communism or fascism fall down when put to real situations.
Kenneth wrote: "Rand's hardcore fans are in Category A, and tend to use her pseudo-philosophy as a crutch to support their greedy behavior."I am not an intellect, by any measure, and feel intimidated on these discussions.
However, I will stand up for myself being a hard-core fan and for not fitting your profile of my belonging to Group A.
My possessions are a source of pride to me in that I acquired them by my own efforts. They are not expensive, nor are they valued by any standard other than my own. My riches reflect the respect I have for what I am able to provide for myself.
There is no greed in my life, but sheer appreciation of what my hard work can provide.
My daughter claims not growing up with a silver-spoon has made her the person she is. As a teenager, her perspective on goods and self-worth is balanced. Whatever she has or doesn't have is not a measure of who she is, but what she has worked for. If she desires more, than she knows by working harder, she will have the opportunity to attain more.
I am so perplexed at how my view of Atlas Shrugged is so very different from others.
Yes, it is different from the norm, and thankfully so!One of the big problems with the ideological position that most fans take is that Rand is arguing for meritocracy on equal grounds. That's a nice sentiment, but it ignores the cold fact that we all start on unequal terms. That's just for starters.
The main greed I saw in Atlas Shrugged was the government as they gained control of all aspects of your life - not the corporate wealthy. Funny how individuals all see different things.
Sure, Mary. That's the idealist view. In the real world, the line between what is "government" and what is "corporate wealthy" is very, very blurred.
How can government be both full of crony deals and bought by lobbyists acting on behalf of moneyed interests...and a "snakepit" of Marxist/Leninist thieves out to grab everyones juicy boxes? Contradictory, no?Why would billionaires spend money to support their opposition?
Doesn't money talk? Citizens United says it does.
How can a representative republic be an entity that acts on it's own?
Hi Kenneth,
Would be easier to reference previous messages instead of repeating oneself, eh? Or, maybe new posters could read over the thread? :}
Yeah, definitely E.D. Or maybe by restating in different ways, we end up with a clearer set of statements in the end?
Point taken, Kenneth...; I have grown partial to the "juicy boxes"jibe. Just seems to....fit. :}
She changed my perspective on a life transported from California to Tokyo. Much needed insight as I was going through some really heavy soul-searching, whilst being in a foreign land.
Random question - - - Why doesn't Darby pay, or get paid for, sex? Everything else in Rand's utopia has a price tag. Why not that, too?
Bill, great question! Of course, this silly book seems to think rape is a viable option for sex....
Ha! Silly is a good word for it. Their should be a special category for Rand's work: Political Diatribe Wrapped in a Fiction Veneer
Peter wrote: "Do a dollar's worth of work and get a dollar - do 50c worth of work and all you get is 50cThat IS what she is saying!"
The exact message in this aspect is: your work is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. If you expect more, you're a looter.
Giansar wrote: "Peter wrote: "Do a dollar's worth of work and get a dollar - do 50c worth of work and all you get is 50cThat IS what she is saying!"
The exact message in this aspect is: your work is only worth wh..."
and conversely, someone else's work is only what they are willing to sell it for, if you ask less, you are a thief!
Anthony wrote: "and conversely..."In laissez-faire it is not the place of a worker to ask a price for his work. The market price-tags it for him.
In laissez-faire you should pay an employee as little as possible. If you of your own volition pay him more then you diminish your profit and regulate the economy, which defeats the purpose of the free market.
Labor is commodity - you don't go buy a beer and pay the shop assistant more than the price tag.
who is the market? you should pay as little as possible? but the worker should demand as much as possible. the free market is supposed to determine the axis of supply and demand. if you can artificially suppress demand so a worker will supply labor for less, then conversely the workers can artificially suppress supply so that you are required to pay more.capital is a commodity. I am always amazed at the capitalist who does not realize his usefulness is less than the worker. capital is only a way of accounting for stored labor and raw materials. as the raw materials are rightfully owned by every creature, humans and otherwise. no one has the right to deed themselves or others a piece of the planet, unless the recipient can show a reason for such deed would be a net benefit of mankind or creaturekind. to exploit the earth for ones own gain is criminal, a theft against all who breathe. and without labor, much of it skilled, the natural resources just lie upon the ground, or underneath it. the capitalist is responsible for taking enough accounted credit to bring these two forces together and make something useful, for that, he is allowed a profit, but when he exploits either the labor or the earth, he is committing crimes against humanity and should be killed. Most civilized countries recognize the willful misuse of nature as a crime, and most countries, expect America and Russia recognize that for the capitalist to make thousands of times as much as his employees is also a crime. for some reason, Rand's idea that to steal from the worker is an honorable thing has been encoded in the American "ethic" and we honor the billionaire who makes his fortune by exploiting minimum wage workers. of course Rand was an evil fool, and so are her followers. Most Americans will not walk all the way with her, because in her radical form, they see her folly, but they muddle along, close enough to her logic to allow for the mass exploitation of the worker for the gain of the 1%.
Anthony wrote: "if you can artificially suppress demand so a worker will supply labor for less, then conversely the workers can artificially suppress supply so that you are required to pay more."Yes they can try it, but... If I am the one with the money I can suppress their suppression. I can usually coerce them into working while they can't coerce me into paying more (maybe apart from the miners and their pickaxes but there are means to deal with them too). They can stop working and I will stop paying - guess who will starve out sooner.
The only situation, in which in free market economy the salaries should rise is when there is physical lack of supply for work - i.e. the employee pool on the market is too small and the employers have to bid for them.
The rule of thumb is always maximizing profits and minimizing costs. Money you pay your employees is your cost.
and the money they let you keep is their cost
Actually, without labor, you can neither force labor to do anything nor can you eat, unless you want to eat money. Without labor, there is no food. The worker can plant a garden. Unless the capitalist decides to quit being a capitalist and become a worker, he cannot plant a garden without labor.
Anthony wrote: "Unless the capitalist decides to quit being a capitalist and become a worker, he cannot plant a garden without labor."Thankfully most of the workers apparently aren't aware of it.
Anthony wrote: "you can neither force labor to do anything".
Well, maybe I will have to keep a small part of the labor force more happier with their wages to be able to keep the rest in line. It is a sacrifice I am willing to make. But the economy gives me lots of instruments to control the working force. I can make them not be able to afford a place to live, then lure them into mortgaging themselves up to their ears. They will have to work their asses off in order to keep their house from being repossessed.
As long as you can keep them ignorant of their power, you, like any good dictator, can use the power of the masses against themselves, but that is hardly a free market. And most of all, it is outdated thinking. Collaborative efforts between the worker and the capitalist proves to increase the wealth of both. Buying substandard labor, like buying substandard materials can offer short term profits, but in the long run, buying the best of both delivers a product that adds value and creates a strong brand, which, in turn makes it easier to maintain market share
Anthony wrote: "Buying substandard labor, like buying substandard materials can offer short term profits"If there's bumper apple harvest the apples come cheap but it doesn't mean they are of inferior quality.
You don't need to settle for substandard labor when labor supply is much higher than demand.
That is why you should never ever allow unemployment rate falling too low.
Sweta wrote: "For me, this book says "Be best in what you do, whatever you choose to do, it may be anything from running a road side diner to inventing a motor, give it your 100%, strive for the best in you and ..."hmm, not sure the author intended for you to get such an upbeat message, but I wonder if you meant Atlantis or Atlas?
Sweta, you represent the kind of person who reads it as a motivational book. Others read it as a political-pseudo-philosophical platform and try to use it to rationalize their anti-social behavior. It's the soap they wash their hands with.
Kenneth wrote: "Sweta, you represent the kind of person who reads it as a motivational book. Others read it as a political-pseudo-philosophical platform and try to use it to rationalize their anti-social behavio..."
love the soap phrase!!!
Kenneth wrote: "Sweta, you represent the kind of person who reads it as a motivational book. Others read it as a political-pseudo-philosophical platform and try to use it to rationalize their anti-social behavio..."
Kenneth, how are you? I'm having a hard time understanding where this idea of "anti-social behavior' is coming from. Is this simply your "anti-Rand" opinion or can you show me something from her texts? Also, you said "discarding of morality" in a response to my previous post. I"m curious in your thinking? I found her characters too have strong morality. Would love to discuss further.
-Andrew
Okay, thanks for the clarification
Sweta wrote: "Anthony wrote: "Sweta wrote: "For me, this book says "Be best in what you do, whatever you choose to do, it may be anything from running a road side diner to inventing a motor, give it your 100%, s..."Very well put Sweta. I love that you think for yourself!
Andrew, you need only look back through the previous 8 pages for context. I'd rather not beat the dead horse again.
I loved this book. I read it when I was 16 and as Lara and Steven J have said, it was transformative.Ayn Rand escaped, literally, from Communist Russia at a young age. Her novel We The Living was a dramatization of this part of her life.
The Communist motto was exactly what she wrote in protest of - “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” This is what I took from the book.
The book was written in 1957. At this time the world was not as it is now. I believe many people relate the book to NOW and the economic collapse. The conservatives are not anyone's favorites. But step back and view it in historical context.
Even in the 70's when I read the book I found it prophetic.
Now I will just have to read it again.
Steven J - I did a play based on Anthem. Love that book too.
And I will add - the play was never published or authorized by Rand. It was written by a fellow high school student and produced in 1972. She was quite brilliant and that led me to read all that Rand has written.
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I share your sentiments - used have matchboxes with$