Atlas Shrugged
discussion
What effect did this book have on you??
Interesting perspective. Kind of like lamenting the penis size gap. How many inches would need to be added or subtracted from every member until we were all "average". The problem of inequality isn't solely a matter of distribution, but social equity. Social, as the root of society. Equity, as in a system not rigged to benefit one "percentile" to the detriment of others.
Equality of opportunity--not outcome--but reasonably perceived as equitable.
E.D.There you go bringing attention to the inch gap; surely this is one areas where communists, libertarians, democrats, and even Cubans can agree that differences here are of no significance. I think some republicans would agree but there's likely a faction that would insist upon conception being the only acceptable outcome.
On a more serious note I cannot disagree with the other portion of your comment. In looking at history, in the US the last 50 some years prior have been a bit of an abnormality for normal conditions even if only US history is considered. Is it possible we are just reverting to a more historical norm that none of us are accustomed to?
Not exactly a pleasant thought.
Marc, in Florida and some other states, groceries are non taxable, though it can get a little strange based on lobbying. Of course bread, dairy and canned, frozen and fresh fruit and veggies and raw meat are non taxable. Soda and gum are taxable, which seems fair, but Little Debbie's snack cakes are non taxable!!!!
Welcome to The New Gilded Age. History..,and fairly recent as history goes.., shows where the system takes us when greed overwhelms common sense, and men of intelligence play games with logic and ethics to justify it.
Rather I think men of intelligence try to sift through the nonsense to find and promote clarity.
Ha, men of intelligence. An oxymoron. True intelligence is not sought after by those in power. Today's necessary skill set is cunning, deception, and manipulation. Men (those in control) have no more desire for advancement, just greed and power. There really was no other end for man but destruction. Hang onto your hats. The ride will be rough.
Hi Janice, isn't that view somewhat contradicted by reality. We all hate Congress and think they are incompetent, yet we tend to love our individual Representative. The problem would not seem to be the individuals we are sending to manage our affairs but rather something far more rotten that lies within each and everyone of us.
Hi Marc,See what you started! :}
I've always remembered a Biblical proverb (hey, I take my source material where I find it) : "Be harmless as doves, yet wise as serpents."
I think what we're seeing is some "serpents" (as Janice points out) recognize themselves as what they are, but are okay with that..., and others delude themselves through their cleverness into believing they are actually "doves". Which is more insidious?
Kenneth, that is what gives me a glimmer of hope for the future.
Now I feel slighted E.D., why is it that Kenneth gets the keys to the Kingdom? Granted he says in one sentence which takes me at least several paragraphs, but that's still no excuse for this blatant favoritism. I feel discriminated against. There's been a lot of recent press about Goodreads bullies and there's even a movement to stop this kind of behavior. I'll have you know I'm not afraid to blow the whistle and call in a librarian to see that you are reprimanded. Excuse me though, I think it's time for me to shed again.
I was going to make a joke about;...."honestly, honey...it meant nothing to me"..., but some people apparently think I'm not serious enough as it is.I will say this, though; this thread has shown me there is reason to believe their are still men of intelligence willing to consider other's viewpoints. And that is encouraging. A little "harsh" sometimes, but still encouraging. I'm feeling..."all warm and fuzzy".
Honestly, honey...it won't happen again.
(Couldn't help myself.) :}
Did you forget to put on your Depends again? Warm fuzzy feelings at your age can be misleading and are not to be trusted.This has been a very interesting and educational group. I would suggest we need to find another forum to civilize. For sure the shear bizarre and fanatical aspect The Secret gets people really worked up. The group debating whether or not Lolita is the greatest love story of all time leaves me wanting to disinfect my computer afterwards.
Don't worry though something really controversial will stir the waters soon enough, maybe the blasphemy of a woman President or funding for the military actually being cut.
It made me realize that you have to be a teenager to be taken in by this narcissistic witch.
Marc wrote: "Hi Janice, isn't that view somewhat contradicted by reality. We all hate Congress and think they are incompetent, yet we tend to love our individual Representative. The problem would not seem to be..."You may love your individual representative but certainly not all people feel that way. They are slick, like snakeoil salesmen--all of them. They are self-serving. Can't argue with the pudding. Isn't it our proof? Don't we know them by their fruits? I take exception that you feel the need to protect the wolf in sheep's clothing? Is that why we keep declining because there is a mindset such as yours that has infected the rational portion of our society?
“Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” Ephesians 5:11
E.D. wrote: "Hi Marc,See what you started! :}
I've always remembered a Biblical proverb (hey, I take my source material where I find it) : "Be harmless as doves, yet wise as serpents."
I think what we're see..."
If we had any political force worthy of that Bible verse, we would be able to battle our way out of the morass. But the chance of us surviving as the once great nation we were, is less than 1%. If you know how lawyers work and how they destroy their adversaries, you would be of the same mindset as me--they make sure you run out of resources so quickly that you end up chasing your tail and hope you can feed your children. Unless you want to throw caution to the wind and go crazy all over them, I'd say they are already sitting in the winner's seat. There isn't a chance in hell that any of our congress people, either house, will do anything to change the course our ship of state is on. Our political process no longer works and the enemies tentacles are too deep.
E.D. wrote: "Welcome to The New Gilded Age. History..,and fairly recent as history goes.., shows where the system takes us when greed overwhelms common sense, and men of intelligence play games with logic and..."
You need to define intelligence. Tesla is intelligence. Pasteur is intelligence. Salk is intelligence. Men and women who provide the "good" or create the "good." Not those who define themselves as intelligent and spend their days undermining the masses using the masses tax dollars for their useless whims. I call them cunning, deceitful, evil and criminal. They do this for entertainment. They are not intelligent. They see themselves as gods.
Janice, I don't think intelligence (the ability to reason) is superior to one's exercise of Free Will (the ability to choose). Intelligent people often debate over what is "good". Or moral. Or ethical. Or virtuous. Intelligence, alone, does not lead directly to "The Truth". It can, however, be used to serve a predetermined purpose. To justify (in one's own mind, and to others) why your "good" is the "true good", regardless of what others may think. To delude oneself into self-righteous ignorance.
To be a doosh.
So.., better to define what is good, before defining who is smart.
heted it, thought it was a serious load of you know what... :/
Marc wrote: "Hi Janice, isn't that view somewhat contradicted by reality. We all hate Congress and think they are incompetent, yet we tend to love our individual Representative. The problem would not seem to be..."I don't know about you Marc, but the guys and gals I vote for don't seem to get elected. Wouldn't you figure? I'm in the minority. So while this whole topic I'm sure many readers and contributors have thought they had me pegged as a socialist... where's my individual representation? The system doesn't care for my problems or concerns. Not unless I can convince enough people to agree with me.
E.D, it gives me hope too. I just hope that there are enough 'men (and women) of intelligence' out there to offset the morons grubbing for power and the talking heads disseminating verbal refuse. That there are enough people sifting through the crap and promoting awareness of the stuff amongst it that is decidedly not crap, and worth keeping.
E.D, agreed that intelligence alone is not enough. The choice to act on free will is a necessary catalytic component to preserving culture, rational society.
Janice, I wouldn't question any of your last post. Totally agreed with how those in power are not intelligent because they happen to be powerful, or that some form of intelligence got them there - typically not. Not for politicians and media moguls, anyway. The tech sector is a different animal with some similar themes.
Kenneth wrote: "Marc wrote: "Hi Janice, isn't that view somewhat contradicted by reality. We all hate Congress and think they are incompetent, yet we tend to love our individual Representative. The problem would n..."Kenneth wrote: "Marc wrote: "Hi Janice, isn't that view somewhat contradicted by reality. We all hate Congress and think they are incompetent, yet we tend to love our individual Representative. The problem would n..."
Intelligence isn't the most important component in producing policies that will benefit the greatest number of people. Free will has little to do with it. The most important component when legislating for the general welfare is empathy. Rand lacked it. There is no evidence of it in Libertarian policies. Republicans show great amounts of it- towards the rich. Democrats are empathetic but all too often let their own greed or the desire to remain in power get in the way. Ayn Rand was a sad excuse for a human being who has taken in too many people because of their own desire to legitimize their own selfishness. Sad and pathetic.
E.D. wrote: "Janice, I don't think intelligence (the ability to reason) is superior to one's exercise of Free Will (the ability to choose). Intelligent people often debate over what is "good". Or moral. Orethi..."
Janice wrote: "E.D. wrote: "Welcome to The New Gilded Age.
History..,and fairly recent as history goes.., shows where the system takes us when greed overwhelms common sense, and men of intelligence play games w..."
Colleen, I'm in total agreement with empathy being the highest virtue (in politics, as well as all human interaction). I would, however, point out that one chooses whether to be empathetic (actions taken, or not, because of that choice)...or to be a self-centered prick. Free Will.Nit-pickin' over terminology, I admit. But not disagreement.
You want disagreements? Ask a Randian True Believer what the definition of "General Welfare" in the Constitution is. That can be a real "hoot". :}
All right people the honeymoon is over, "empathy is the highest virtue in politics, as well as all human interaction."I'm thinking I'd start with honesty, followed by integrity, and then probably curious. Just being able to relate to others does not mean you should take action to support their point of view or that you will then be more capable of doing so. Empathy is also a poor reason for producing laws. We could very well have felt bad for blacks in the south during the civil rights struggle but taking action because we felt bad is inferior to recognizing the unjustness of the situation and taking action because it was the right thing to do regardless of how we might have felt.
As for the "General Welfare." Let's start with protection from the lawless actions of others, no matter how much E.D. might dislike me or desire my vinyl collection of Neil Diamond, he cannot harm me or my property. Next comes bare minimum subsistence; food stamps and public housing. No where does this involve lobster, steak, big screen TV's, or a two car garage with a car of your choice. The final item would probably be K-12 education.
Hi Marc, I can empathize with your desire to protect your Neil D. vinyl. Digital remastering from analog has not been kind to The Diamond. :}Empathy is not simply.."you feel sad, so, I feel sad". That is sympathy.
Empathy is..."you feel sad, so, I want to personally really understand why". Generally speaking.
I think empathy, as a virtue, is the culmination of the virtues of honesty, integrity, and curiosity. Honesty to see there are legitimate differences of opinion.., the integrity to not deny it.., and the curiosity to find ways to deal with them in a fair and just manner. Empathy isn't buying every kid ice cream. It is trying to understand the effect of never getting ice cream on some kids who would also like a little ice cream (as you would) and..,maybe.., find a way to get the little buggers a cone once in a while. Not ten times a damn day.., but once in a while. They're kids. It's ice cream. Don't be a prick.
AAhhh..., feeling "bad" for blacks and civil rights denied.
Taking action because of.."recognizing the injustice of the situation...because it was the right thing to do". How did we recognize injustice and know what we were going to do was right?
Could it be.....(wait for it).........empathy?
As to "General Welfare". My list is a lot longer. I think we'd agree on a lot of it. Not all. But, a lot. That's how I "feel", anyway. :}
Hi E.D.You have a way of always making me feel like a prick, but I want ice cream too.
LBJ pushed the civil rights legislation through and broke the back of the Democratic party in the South for nearly 40 some years now. I could be mistaken but believe he was probably almost as racist as any Grand Wizard ever was, the action also ran directly counter to the interests of his own party. Still for whatever reason he made it happen, I'm having a hard time thinking empathy played a role here.
As a society we are largely disgusted by child abusers, I doubt very many amongst us have very much empathy for them. Despite the fact most of them were abused themselves and so the cycle continues. Their rates of re-activism are close to 80% suggesting they cannot be rehabilitated. Not a situation where protecting even these individuals rights is something I would want to trust to empathy.
Leadership of troops in combat is another area where I question if empathy is effective. Choices have to be made that result in devastating consequences for select individuals.
Still I can see the dream of a world where choices could be made largely based on empathy. Sadly I think we are still a long ways from that point.
Empathy is difficult to foster in a culture that values the self as paramount.
Meh. The age of selfishness lives on.
It made me realize how we should be thankful to great minds and how their success trickles down to everyone's success. Don't hate people for the success, raise them up and we will all prosper.
Kim, that relies on those successful people's empathy, which is in direct contradiction to Rand's message of self-reliance.
Kenneth wrote: "Kim, that relies on those successful people's empathy, which is in direct contradiction to Rand's message of self-reliance."I don't agree. Brilliant minds, breed successful businesses, which breed jobs, which breed good economies. If you strive to keep brilliance down or try to mooch off of them, they just go elsewhere to thrive.
SSSHHHHH! There's a successfully brilliant businessman. Don't ask it to not pollute..or pay taxes...or not try to buy the government..., you'll scare the poor thing away.It might run off with it's money and birth it's job babies in China.., or Indonesia.., or India.., or some other Third World source of cheap labor. Why, it might even set up a storefront in the Caymans.
Better to raise it up. Apparently, business success isn't enough...; it requires worship. And loopholes. :}
I'm naturally inclined to agree with Kim, but I wouldn't quite attribute it to brilliant minds, rather passion. It's not jobs either, as in most cases it's jobs and entire professions that are destroyed in the process of something new and better being adopted. What we are usually seeing is increased productivity or efficiency. You no longer have to drive or take public transportation to pick up your food stamp check or voucher for public housing. This gives you additional time to search for a job, join Code Academy (free and excellent)and learn to create a new app, or take free college classes from the best at MIT or Stanford.
Granted the floor mat installation job that used to pay $35 an hour is now being done China for fifty cents a hour, but you have Netflix for $7 a month that can offer you more entertainment than your local BlockBuster could ever stock.
Whats disappeared is the safe and sure path, get job at GM, pretend to work, get paid well, retire and collect benefits for life. We are all now freelancers whose destiny is increasingly in our own hands.
Think back three hundred years ago, there was no unemployment problem or wondering what to do next. Rather the cow had to be milked if you were lucky enough to own a cow, the chickens had to be feed, and there was no one telling you what to do next. We've been selected and programmed for the three hundred years since for an industrial model that is not the norm.
Business today is not the enemy, rather in many cases it offers the tools and means for many to live fuller and richer lives. The question is rather do we have the courage to live on the same terms our ancestors did or have we become so domesticated to require supervised feeding?
Hi Marc, Damn! That's a lotta salami on that sandwhich! By which I mean well reasoned and on point. (A little snarky about the food stamps and Section 8, but....couldn't resist, eh?) Many good observations.
Society does need to adapt to new technologies and possibilities. The old ways are in most cases non-viable. But, do we move forward by stepping backwards to the days of Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Carnegie, and J.P.Morgan? Do we return to the days of demi-gods worshipped (or believing they should be) by a nation of paupers? We know how The Gilded Age ended, and it wasn't pretty. Would it take courage to live on the same terms as our ancestors...or historical blinders?
Can we move forward without re-fighting all the same battles?
Kim wrote: "Kenneth wrote: "Kim, that relies on those successful people's empathy, which is in direct contradiction to Rand's message of self-reliance."I don't agree. Brilliant minds, breed successful busin..."
Holding brilliance down is stupid. I never said that should be attempted.
However, assuming that a few brilliant people, or a few successful people, if you want to slice it that way, will be sufficient to pull the rest of society upward is naive. You're assuming these people will be altruistic, spread their wealth around. This flies right in the face of Rand's self-importance doctrine, which I wrote previously and you passed over.
Business is not the enemy. Neither is government. Both are the same coin, different sides. Moderation is a positive force. Drive individual freedoms and reward effort, while protecting individual rights to freedom from exploitation by those who are successful.
Too often these arguments end up being about either pro-government or pro-business, pro-individual or pro-social. Can't any of us understand that we need more than one component for a successful society? Look at Sweden or Switzerland - moderation that works.
There was a book I mentioned in this thread about power and how it has changed. One of the interesting things I took away from the book was while we have seen huge changes in science and industry our basic governing structures have so far seen little change. There are some experiments out the right now that are worth watching. For example a town in Brazil has turned over I believe 40% of it's annual budget to direct citizen input (they decided how to allocate the reals).
There's a number of other new business models like the micro-lending that is taking off in India and Bangladesh.One closer to us is Prosper, they currently have far more money to loan than they do qualified loans. All of these models pose a serious threat to what were once unbreakable competitors.
I think we focus to much on the wealth that goes to those who create products like these. Whatever wealth has flowed to Bill Gates is a fraction of what Microsoft has delivered to the world.
So how do we bring government into the modern age and make it a force that more fully enables citizens to lead happy and productive lives?
In following up on the moderation thread, which I fully appreciate, I'll offer a dictionary definition of the word: "the avoidance of excess or extremes, esp. in one's behavior or political opinions". Perhaps in a few years we'll see the creation of a Libertarian-Socialist party where the two ends of the political spectrum combine and agree to live in a state of perpetual tension and be satisfied with a perpetual series of temporary resolutions. Kind of like real life, where it's rarely one thing or the other, but usually one thing and the other.Systems and economies that work the best have solid legal structures, a good mix of government and private initiatives, solid social welfare programs, and good educational systems among other things. Too much government and too many social welfare benefits(Greece)are not healthy. Too little government and to few social welfare benefits (Haiti)are not healthy either. Solid legal structures and generally balanced government/private economic initiatives help create stability and spur economic growth (Germany and increasingly places like Brazil). The lack of solid, legitimate legal structures(Russia)leads to corruption, waste, and a poor economy (along with arbitrary police measures).
Balance itself is never really balanced, just mostly balanced. Political ideologues on both the right or the left try to push the debate towards absolutes. They decry moderates as being spineless and wishy-washy, but in my opinion it is they who are the real cowards. They refuse to accept the real demands and the hard work required to perpetually find the right, temporary balance. Like adolescents, they daydream about the perfect world, where no one ever says no, everyone acts just right, and everyone always has just what they want (or for Ayn Rand, deserve).
Marc, Bill Gates is a pretty solid philanthropist, proponent of education, and betterment of those in need, as well as a billionaire. On the other hand, someone like Steve Jobs I had much less respect for. They represent two people in a similar position that took very different roads.
It's nice to pick on government. Government is fairly static, as you wrote, despite changes in culture. However, it's not alone and other elements need to change too.
Mark: If there ever were a libertarian socialist party, I'd probably end up a member.
A movement and/or political party of moderation and balance?I could die content. :}
I'm always reminded of my friend's Mom, who found her reading Atlas Shrugged when she was in her early 20's, and asked, "Are you still in your Ayn Rand phase?" Fortunately, my friend grew out of it.It's another pop philosophy, in this case one that conveniently justifies the rich stealing from the poor and weak. So Rand has been a very useful sage in US politics for a couple of generations.
As the gap between rich and poor continues to grow to almost record levels, it's time Americans grew out of Rand, as well.
I read this book when I was 18, a very impressionable age to read this book. Consequently, I loved this book and I absolutely revered her writing. I was instantly floored. It gave words to a lot of unfinished ideas I had in life. For gods sake, it talked about perfection as an ideal of life itself. I have always tried to point my finger at what I want to do in life and I immediately understood it when I read the book. I am looking for perfection. I admire it, I revere it and I am sometimes over-zealous in this regard.With time however, I saw the flaws in her writings. The slight exaggerations and assumptions. The inability to understand grey areas. Eventually, my views about this book and the ideas in it sobered down.
People tend to believe that her book is about the "advantages of capitalism" or worse "to justify the undeserving rich". That is probably one of the many ways to look at this book. However, I would call such a viewpoint naive and short-sighted. For example, you can call Divine Comedy a 'useless lamentation of an ex-communicated vagrant' and you wouldn't be completely wrong. But, you cannot perceive the value of the book by thinking this.
I have always believed that there are two kinds of people, people who take responsibilities and people who shirk from them. Ayn Rand calls one amazing while calling the other dirt/evil and that is probably why this is so "controversial" literature. It touches a nerve with people.
If books are people, this book would be one of those people who is absolutely brilliant but judges people too harshly in a slightly brash way. I think I wouldn't mind such a person, which is why I still have this book on my shelf.
While I'm glad you found inspiration Saquib, you too are oversimplifying the complex implications of Rand's writings by compartmentalizing it into a dichotomy for which your personal views are supported.
This book messed America up. America is an economic superpower based on fundamental casino capitalism. Its military, society, legal system, democracy is inherently built to further its version of capitalism. It makes perfect sense to me that the NSA will leak economic data to American corporations in order to give them a leg up on the global stage. Thats what this book predicted and this is what happened.
Rand is.."absolutely brilliant but judges people too harshly in a slightly brash way..".Gee'sus H. Boodah! My head's gonna explode.
Jjab wrote: "Didn't like it. What I've noticed in life is everyone is replaceable, the world will go on. If all the top scientists, c.e.o's, engineers all quit, there will be other people to take up those roles..."I understand that feeling. I stopped to think about your comment and then imagined a bright and thriving country, systematically stripped of every positive influence. Every individual voice fighting for what is right and just. Fighting for capitalism. Then I thought of the dreariness that is left behind with the socialization of an economy.
We are not replaceable to the measure of our abilities and potential. We are unique and talented and bring something to the table that may have the individual weight of a grand of sand, but the beauty of the horizon is founded on the collective nature of each and every one of us.
Not a Rand Fan. I read some of her earlier work, and I liked the stories, but I never cared for her philosophy. I read well over three quarters of this book and simply quit. I did not care what happened.
I had a question at the end of the book. If everyone there was a maker, who was buying their shit and growing their food? The middle class creates jobs not the rich! I enjoyed reading it but it was all a crock of crap!
Do a dollar's worth of work and get a dollar - do 50c worth of work and all you get is 50cThat IS what she is saying!
IS it? 1,000+ pages for that?How about: Puppies are cute, but nonproductive..., so...., don't feed them. Let them die.
Or: Selfish people good..., everybody else can join the cute puppies.
Yeah. THAT'S it! :}
Read it after I heard her speak in Boston in the 60's while in college.... her protege was with her. Loved her and the book. It became part of my lifestyle and beliefs. Even put $ on my joints.
E.D. wrote: "IS it? 1,000+ pages for that?How about: Puppies are cute, but nonproductive..., so...., don't feed them. Let them die.
Or: Selfish people good..., everybody else can join the cute puppies.
Yeah..."
She should have written 2,000+ pages for you to understand! end of conversation.
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