Atlas Shrugged
discussion
What effect did this book have on you??
Just out of curiosity, what is the literary polar opposite of Atlas Shrugged? That fictional world where the selfless few are engaged in a epic battle to stop the masses from destroying civilization in their pursuit of profit and excellence. Instead of "looters" the masses and enemies are "profiteers." Instead of struggling to produce a revolutionary new metal and rebuild a railroad. Our heroes work to stop progress by reverting to a prehistoric metal that is more expensive,less efficient, and most important- less profitable. Instead of building a new railroad in a race against time, our heroes take their time with no pressure or obstacles as they dismantle the railroads tracks as part of an effort to reduce profitability and service. Meanwhile the impacts from their efforts are undermined at every turn as their workers refuse to work slower or accept money without having earned it. Their competitors continue to create new products and are able to build far more track than they have been able to destroy.
As the story progresses our heroes start to disappear one by one with devastating impacts on society. There is now more innovation, profit, and self sufficiency that ever.
Am I correct in thinking that some of you think this is the world we are living in today? If Rand's work doesn't resonate with you or reflect the world we live in then the story outlined above should.
Marc, that story would be called history! I think a Christmas carol is the closest to an opposite in popular lit
Marc, now that was great parody. Very Kafka.Perhaps, if Rand's pontificating wasn't humorless extremism demanding absolute surrender to her "beliefs", those who honestly find fault with her thinking...and those who honestly find truth in it... could spend more time on pragmatic accommodation, rather than locking and loading.
Scrooge didn't become a Marxist Christmas morning just because he talked to a few liberal-minded ghosts the night before. :}
Marc wrote: "Just out of curiosity, what is the literary polar opposite of Atlas Shrugged? That fictional world where the selfless few are engaged in a epic battle to stop the masses from destroying civilization"How the Steel Was Tempered by Nikolai Ostrovsky.
I'd be hard pressed to decide, which of the two is more utopian and delusional. The problem is that Ostrovsky's novel hasn't been treated seriously by anyone for a long time and Rand's still is by many, which is mind-boggling to me.
E.D. wrote: "Marc, now that was great parody. Very Kafka....Scrooge didn't become a Marxist Christmas morning just because he talked to a few liberal-minded ghosts the night before. :} "
no, but he makes a case for all of us being our brothers keeper, not only for the benefit of the brother, but for ourselves, that seems to be about as opposite as the greed is honorable message of rand
Hi Ed, I was unfamiliar with Kafka and had to look him up. In the future I think I'm going to sample some of his works, his personal life was interesting so I'm going to gamble his books are as well. Thanks for the future reading material tip.
Giansar, thanks for what looks like another great book to read. I've added it my reading list and will see if the library can get me a copy. It really does look like another fascinating largely unknown work. I'll get back to you once I've finished it, thanks again.
Unfortunately in rereading my fictional story outline I have uncovered a rather ironic twist. I have been hung by own words.
"There is now more innovation, profit, and self sufficiency than ever."
That is reality, thus I must concede I was wrong in believing that Atlas Shrugged was reality. The masses are indeed largely "profiteers", having rejected unions, video stores, land lines, etc...
The heroes of my story outline are also present and while respected they are also ignored and have little impact; Pope Francis, Jimmy Carter, Dalai Lama, etc...
I stand corrected.
Marc, I would suggest starting with the trial
Anthony, I would love to sit in some After Life Cafe and listen to Dickens and Rand discuss altruism. I would bet Rand would stomp out in a tizzy before Dickens got shit-faced and passed out. Sounds like a great time. :}
E.D. wrote: "Anthony, I would love to sit in some After Life Cafe and listen to Dickens and Rand discuss altruism. I would bet Rand would stomp out in a tizzy before Dickens got shit-faced and passed out. Sound...":)
Maybe the great gatsby would be more of an equivalent opposite. Showing us the worthless rich at their worst, of course rands useful rich are almost as disgusting....
Anthony wrote: "Maybe the great gatsby would be more of an equivalent opposite. Showing us the worthless rich at their worst, of course rands useful rich are almost as disgusting...."Lord of the flies has been suggested by some as the antithesis to Atlas Shrugged.
Gilles wrote: "Anthony wrote: "Maybe the great gatsby would be more of an equivalent opposite. Showing us the worthless rich at their worst, of course rands useful rich are almost as disgusting...."Lord of the ..."
Both are flawed studies of human nature, but i think LotF makes the case that children will go barbaric if not raised properly. Though I think as intriguing as the story is, it is a false premise. In some ways i see more parallels between AS and LotF than conflicts. The latter is a bit better written, in my opinion.
Another work that might make the cut as the antithesis to Atlas Shrugged is the New Testament. No doubt there are plenty who would argue whether it is fiction or history. Still the central character does shall we say, "Walk on water." Healing the sick (free of charge), feeding the masses (free of charge), living a very simple and humble life in contrast to what his powers could have enabled, and ultimately being killed by the masses (the crowd did select him).
Marc wrote: "Another work that might make the cut as the antithesis to Atlas Shrugged is the New Testament. No doubt there are plenty who would argue whether it is fiction or history. Still the central characte..."some of the best history is fiction and vice versa, i wouldnt say the new testament, because paul sometimes wanders too close to the flame of objectivism, but the first 5 books....
Anthony, could you explain how you see parallels between AS and LotF? That's an interesting proposition.
The effect it had on me was extreme boredom, mixed with amazement that people could respect her nonsensical "philosophy".
Rachel wrote: "The effect it had on me was extreme boredom, mixed with amazement that people could respect her nonsensical "philosophy"."I had the same reaction to Dr.Seuss once.., but there was a great deal of scotch involved. :}
It made me appreciate "God Bless You Mr. Rosewater" to a much greater degree.
Very wordy and I strongly disagree with the message on so many levels. She painted two extremes that don't exist in real life and attacks them as if they were true. She had one argument and beat it to death. At the end she convinced me of nothing and left me weary.
The book is a fictional dystopia. I wonder if most of the individuals posting on here understand this, or her philosophy, or “capitalism”? Actually, from their posts, I know they do not. Most posting on this site seem to hate capitalism without realizing without it they wouldn’t be typing or posting anything anywhere. There would be no Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, to speak of, because their lives would have been lived in statist obscurity. Blah, blah, blah… whatever, continue to live your lives steeped in doublethink. BTW, you don’t need to reply in rant to this post, I no-doubt won’t reply back, after all I have to work so I can send money to the state, so they can send money to you, so you can sit on your statist ass and rail against freedom.
Forget the philosophy (though how could you), the writing is just bad!
I have to work... so unless you have something constructive to say STFU. Teresa wrote: "Forget the philosophy (though how could you), the writing is just bad!"
Brian, I agree with your comment but you can't change these propagandized, "entitled" hearts. They believe it is compassionate to turn someone into a sniveling moron. You, though, are spot on but someday soon it won't be worth working to support the useless idiots anymore. You and I both know this evil philosophy will cave in on itself. It will be the French Revolution all over again but far worse.
Janice, thank you. I find it crazy that someone would waste their time posting negative and ignorant ideas when surely they have read something they liked, like the Communist Manifesto, and they could be posting comments and ignorance on that page instead. Yes, the end is near, our monetary system combined with our spending cannot stand up much longer.Janice wrote: "Brian, I agree with your comment but you can't change these propagandized, "entitled" hearts. They believe it is compassionate to turn someone into a sniveling moron. You, though, are spot on but s..."
That she was a bad writer who needed an editor? That her characters seemed like black and white cardboard figures, not real human beings? That she wrote as if her audience had to have the same thing repeated over and over and over again to "get it" or be convinced of it? Sorry, in my opinion, her writing was pretty bad. Why am I not allowed to say that?
Teresa wrote: "That she was a bad writer who needed an editor? That her characters seemed like black and white cardboard figures, not real human beings? That she wrote as if her audience had to have the same th…"Well Said
I think you were and I also think you will find others on agreement with you. As a teenaged reader, I didn't find the writing bad. I just found it a kind of fun escapism novel for some pathetic entitled brats. I was shocked that others read it as some philosophical justification of those pathetic creatures. I thought damned them as well as Dickens!
Brian wrote: "Janice, thank you. I find it crazy that someone would waste their time posting negative and ignorant ideas when surely they have read something they liked, like the Communist Manifesto, and they c..."Brian, sadly, I believe you are correct. There is no way humanity can progress with these twisted, wrong-headed ideas. Isaiah states it so eloquently:
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" -- Isaiah 5:20
Janice wrote: "Brian wrote: "Janice, thank you. I find it crazy that someone would waste their time posting negative and ignorant ideas when surely they have read something they liked, like the Communist Manifes…"Jesus said it best, "It is hard for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven,"
Some of the pro rand comments here are hard to figure: are they from ignorance or idiocy? Hard to imagine anyone with enough intelligence to read and write to say such silliness. Maybe it is all satire and I just missed it?
Rev. wrote: "Janice wrote: "Brian wrote: "Janice, thank you. I find it crazy that someone would waste their time posting negative and ignorant ideas when surely they have read something they liked, like the Co..."In a world of duality, it is possible to twist the truth the wrong way, which you have. What about the parable of the 10 talents? Jesus was also a carpenter in his earthly father's business. To succeed don't you think they would have to operate at a profit? Jesus worked as a carpenter for income before he began his ministry. Further, Jesus was all about freedom and free will. Socialism and fascism and communism are quite the contrary. Makes some men god over all other men and its root is money and greed at the suffering of others. Sorry you're so twisted. Will pray for you.
Holy shit!!!! The True Defenders Of The Faith have openly co-opted the Biblical Jesus as a free market spokesperson! My cup runneth over!Ave, Ayn...the Lord is with thee. :}
E.D. It's plum funny. First of all, there is no actual reference to Jesus every taking up the family business. In fact, the bible, which is the ONLY source that documents Jesus' existence, there is no mention of. Jesus from age 13 until he shows up preaching at about 29 or 30. As an adult, we have NO record of any of his professional or financial activities aside from being an unpaid wandering preacher. He actually called his disciples from gainful employment to quit and follow him, though the fishermen obviously continued to fish on occasion if the stories in the gospels are factual. By the way, any hated Jesus and religion, at least she had the honesty to admit her philosophy was anti Christian or antichrist
Brian, at least Marx wasn't pretending to be unbiased or that his views could be hidden in a shoddy straw tale. (from mobile)
Ken, good to hear from you. Ayn never pretended; her publisher and most who read it knew/know exactly what it is. A dystopia fiction revealing the evils of statism. Rand"s philosophy has killed no one, Marx"s has killed millions.
ken, her philosophy has killed millions
Yep. Agreed with Anthony. The philosophies of both have killed millions. So have any number of other philosophies. My distinction here is that I want to differentiate between Marx, writing a political essay, and Rand, writing a fiction as a platform on which to build her political essay. To me, it smacks of marketing. And marketing is a topic I could write at length about the evils of. Consider other marketing gimmicks of 'authors' using fiction to present political propoganda: I'll start with L Ron. His narratives have spun into the world's latest evil cult. Rand was probably one of his influences.
Tell me, Anthony, how exactly has Ayn Rand killed anyone? Has history attributed, via her philosophy millions of deaths? No. Marx, on the other hand, is directly responsible via his socialist political philosophy (Marxism – I thought I would spell it out for you Anthony) which was adopted and implemented by Vladimir Lenin, Mao Tse-Tung, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min, Fidel Castro, and Che Gueverra for the deaths of approximately 100 million people in their search for the perfect collectivist society.Anthony wrote: "ken, her philosophy has killed millions"
Marx's philospoh
You're forgetting, Brian, the successful offshoots of socialist thinking that revolutionized and made Scandinavia and Switzerland some of the most prosperous and consistently top-ranked happy countries in the world. You're also forgetting that objectivist capitalism is responsible for the punishing weight of an ever widening gulf between the richest and the poorest (in America) and that at its behest, the rise of the corporation has heralded the downfall of the individual's rights, and the downfall of teamwork in favor of competition. While extremes of ALL kinds are not to be sought (so do not mistake me for a Marxist), Rand's brand of extremism is not to be excused any more than that preached by others. And yes, preached is the proper word. It has led to our failure of government to achieve anything because personal gain trumps collective good. It has led to similar greed in health and medicine, again to the detriment and in many cases direct deaths of countless lives.
Extremes are destructive. You are correct for calling out Stalin, Pot, Lenin and Mao. I'd hesitate to include Che though his was no tale of purity either. What you've left off your list are the opposite extremes, which are just as deadly. Your Caesars, your Alexanders, and while she was no warrior king, the philosophies of Rand and others like her. It is so easy to preach self determination when you've already determined that you are rich.
Testify, Brother Kenneth!I simply fail to see how NOT fawning over Rand's pontificating (and I use that word on purpose) somehow equates to one being a flaming Marxist. Or a supporter of murderous slavemasters, for that matter.
This absolutist bulldookie from persons claiming intellectual veracity is frightening. This is nothing more than "tribal dogma".
I hate to see the argument reduced to (G)od's position on fiscal and monetary policy, and a Free Market Inquisition.
Brian wrote: " I find it crazy that someone would waste their time posting negative and ignorant ideas"And yet you are still doing it even though you wrote you had no time for it.
Brian wrote: " Rand"s philosophy has killed no one"
One must be really inconceivably ignorant to state laissez-faire capitalism killed no one. You should go to China and tell that to the families of those indentured workers that killed themselves jumping off Foxconn's apartment blocks.
You are steeped in ideology so reality means nothing to you. China has lifted more people out of poverty in the past 60 years than all recorded history combined. This is a direct result of the communist government opening up their markets. I choose to see the world as it is not as I would desire, you should try it. It will however, demand of you to relinquish some of your false premises. The best to you.
Brian wrote: "China has lifted more people out of poverty in the past 60 years than all recorded history combined. This is a direct result of the communist government opening up their markets."No, it is not. It is just a byproduct of profiteering and exploitation. Communist government and western capitalists would have led to this transformation just as readily even if it hadn't benefited a single Chinese citizen. Citing this as "lifting from poverty" is either ignorant or extremely cynical.
Brian wrote: "I choose to see the world as it is not as I would desire, you should try it."
I lived under communist rule for 16 years. I am much better off now, living in more or less free market economy.However unlike Ayn Rand and their followers I will never become uncritical of capitalism and free market economy because I see its flaws. I also still remember things, which were better in my country back in the eighties even despite of centrally steered economy.
Jim wrote: "I am not surprised that the greedy and the self-serving would embrace its message like a living Bible. The pity is that its Kool Aid has been consumed and used by those who puppet for the power eli..."Since Atlas Shrugged maligns the greedy and the self-serving, and champions the inventors, artists, the industrialists who actually provide the materials and equipment society uses and the idealists who refuse to sell their souls, I don't think you actually read the book.
Chrissy wrote: "I loved the book. I don't read books based on the authors political views though. I read books for the story. And I understand that Rand's purpose for this book was to make a point and to hopefully..."I totally agree.
Kat wrote: "I'm sorry for all of you who only touched the surface of this incredibly deep thesis of human pschyology. People are lazy, they're cattle - free thinkers have always been penalized by the "common"..."Bravo!
Allan J. wrote: "Robert wrote: "I felt the book should have been half its length. And while it is difficult to disagree with its philosophical viewpoint, it seemed the characters could have been better developed."..."
Allan J. wrote: "Robert wrote: "I felt the book should have been half its length. And while it is difficult to disagree with its philosophical viewpoint, it seemed the characters could have been better developed."
..."
I don't believe the length was deliberate. I've seen two films on Ayn Rand, and I'm reading "Ayn Rand, And the World She Made" by Anne C. Heller. Highly recommended. I learned from one of the films on her, that it took her 2 years to write the 'John Galt speech'!
lestine, looks like you drank the koolaid
After reading some of these posts, I decided to post an excerpt from the Author Interview question on what my favorite books are, that just appear on Jan. 12,2014 in Pebbleinthestillwaters.Blogspot."Atlas Shrugged is a great book, and a good read. I was fascinated and intrigued by Rand’s bold philosophical ideas about the importance of individuality and the moral imperative to create or produce something meaningful in one’s life. The book continues to spark controversy to this day because of it’s radical views of government and its championing of capitalism.
Many people felt and still feel intimidated by Rand's views, and even by Rand, herself, when she appeared on The Phil Donahue show or gave lectures (they invited her) around the country to explain her philosophy.
Ayn Rand was born in Russia and grew up under a socialist regime. She gained a strong hatred and mistrust of government, as a result, and this comes out in Atlas Shrugged. Interestingly, few people mention the book’s heroine, Dagny Taggart, who Rand depicts as a powerful, assertive, financially independent, and sexually liberated woman. Remember, this book was penned in the 1950’s!" --LESTINE
Those who are interested in knowing more about Rand, her fascinating life and her struggles to write this book and The Fountainhead, can check out AYN RAND, And the World She Made, by Anne C. Heller. There is also a good documentary on her on Netflix.
BTW, Part three of the film Atlas Shrugged is still in production. I've seen parts 1 & 2. They are also on Netflix.
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sadly, i am a slow learner, and it is her best work:)