GROUP READ: For Everyone Who's As Curious As Me...

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Ellis, how do you explain that it's not just about 'kink' for you? There are comments in the book about readers/writers/bloggers losing good friends/family over their taste in reading material. Have you?

[Queen]

I'll come back later with my story, I just had to say THIS:

Anne wrote: "Love the thought of having a penis for a day! There's a story there for sure :))"

I was thinking about it a few days ago. There's a silly movie with body swapping which name I don't remember, but that's not the idea. It would have to be someone who likes mm getting a penis hahaha. There's an untranslated manga about this (will give a good link later), the girls don't read mm...but it is a boys love manga, so the dynamics are hilarious.

When we talk about sex or gender, I tend to tell to my friends that if I were a man I would be gay. They laugh, but they don't know what I read...

ETA: Ok, here is the review of the manga I said. I hope it gets a translation soon. It's mentioned in another post about the second volume that one of the girls who goes through the change is in love with her gay friend and well, nothing has happened yet (there will be more vol) but that's an interesting story I'm waiting for.

[Ellis]

LisaT - We Are Qhuay! wrote: "Ellis, how do you explain that it's not just about 'kink' for you? There are comments in the book about readers/writers/bloggers losing good friends/family over their taste in reading material. H..."

And I obviously haven't read the book yet, but I can relate to some of the general comments. I will agree that I'm not as close to some of my friends anymore as a result. Few because of their views on homosexuality and more just because they don't get it and they think my priorities are wacky. I've decided to go at it as a career so it's no longer just something I do in my spare time, and some of my friends disagree with that.

The way I explain it as a reader and as an author depends by and large on who I'm talking to and what I think that person will hear if that makes sense. Sometimes I just say that writing was the creative outlet I felt I needed and male/male romance is what speaks to me and leave it at that. Or I say "I just do, lol. Or I give all or part of a list which includes because I find writing the male point of view exciting, gay romance is more "out of the box"-- it isn't constrained by the same rules and stereotypes as mainstream romance, it gives the opportunity to be an advocate and raise awareness, it's challenging because I'll never be with a man AS a man. Nobody has to have babies! Not to mention as a reader, there are just some really amazing authors in this genre, and that's what they write. Their books are good, witty, action-packed, and I'd have missed out on them if I hadn't discovered the genre. And yes, two men together are incredibly sexy.

[Ellis]

I just remembered, there's an interesting article about this on Damon Suede's web site--his theory has to do with the fact that women have felt marginalized and resist and resent the gender roles and writing M/M allows them break from traditional hetero-normative roles (kinda goes along with that thing about not having to have babies, lol) http://www.damonsuede.com/articles/Wo...

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Ellis wrote: " it isn't constrained by the same rules and stereotypes as mainstream romance, it gives the opportunity to be an advocate and raise awareness, it's challenging because I'll never be with a man AS a man...."

That's a fascinating view. You're right it is less constrained and YET, in reality there are MORE constraints on their relationships. A very interesting conundrum. No wonder it can be explored and dissected so wholeheartedly by readers and writers.

I'm sorry you've had friendship difficulties. I haven't, yet, but only because I'm not really out there with it. My immediate family knows, they just tease me...lovingly. The rest of my family, friends...nah, not now. Some will get it, others, not at all.

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Queen wrote: "the girls don't read mm...but it is a boys love manga, so the dynamics are hilarious...."

I'm so confused!

;P

[Tangy]

Ellis wrote: "I just remembered, there's an interesting article about this on Damon Suede's web site--his theory has to do with the fact that women have felt marginalized and resist and resent the gender roles a..."


Great article from Damon Suede.
He made some very valid points, that I often think but can't quite translate into words.

[Queen]

LisaT - We Are Qhuay! wrote: "Queen wrote: "the girls don't read mm...but it is a boys love manga, so the dynamics are hilarious...."

I'm so confused!

;P"

Sorry, the story goes like this: something weird happens (supernatural stuff we don't care about) and all the youg girls in the country wake up being men above 30 years old. Madness ensues. Then, some of them get horny because of their new bodies (boys love, mm equivalent in manga), these girls like boys, they don't read mm and haven't thought much about it but somehow they start developing feelings for their best friends hehe. And then we have a bunch of funny situations and relationships between men that are actually young girls. Weird, but great.

My story: I have been reading mm for almost 3 years. Now, my introduction to the genre was through manga. I was trying to get into anime, after several years of staying away, and somehow I ended up reading manga. Now, since I got into a community to keep track of my shows and manga, I kept seeing these comments made by rabid fangirls pairing male characters that had nothing to do with each other. Of course, I also got to see the comments of people criticizing these crazy girls. Honestly, they become a bit annoying and a lot of them go over the top. Because of that I was reluctant to find out about the genre. I still don't like slash that much (pairing characters that aren't like that) but I've come a long way.

How? Well, I decided to see for myself, to find out what the fuss was about. I mean, I couldn't emit an opinion if I hadn't read/seen one single story about gays. So, I picked up the most popular yaoi show at the moment, Junjou Romantica, and found a random snippet in the middle of the series. I wasn't that serious about it, I just wanted to see what was what. Coincidentally, that snippet had a rather passionate kissing scene. My reactions while watching the clip went like this:

- Wow, this animation looks so bad. Ugly!
- Meh!
- Eating and not paying attention
- *scene where one character is sucking another's finger*
- Wait, wait, wait. What. is. this.
- Pause. Blush.
- Think a bit.
- Okay.This feels like the first time I saw porn...but this is not porn.
- This...this. I want to see more. Let's go back.
- Well. I might like this. I have to see the whole thing.
- More please!

A few mangas later I found the truly porny part of it. Hooked. Then I jumped to M-M Romance. Now I barely read other things. I used to read M-F but I didn't like it that much. Guess it has to be really well done for me to enjoy it, or have something really interesting aside from the sex. Why do I like m-m more?

- women have felt marginalized and resist and resent the gender roles and writing M/M allows them break from traditional hetero-normative roles
- I am mostly interested in reading about men. M-F is usually told from women's POV. Boring.
- M-M is men, men everywhere. The sex is about them and, even if there are some glaring misconceptions, I learned some amazing and sexy things reading it.
- At first it was kind of kinky. Sort of the "forbidden" love allure. Now it is more about love without barriers, love beyond the expected roles of society and nature.

[Ellis]

LisaT - We Are Qhuay! wrote: "You're right it is less constrained and YET, in reality there are MORE constraints on their relationships. A very interesting conundrum."
I hadn't ever put it into words quite that way, but you're right. There are certainly places where gay romance can push the envelope that mainstream romance probably could not, but in other ways societal norms creates stricter boundaries, for example. And that's often a very real external opposing force in m/m. The closeted man, the married man, the man who hasn't realized he's gay yet... It all creates angst. And some of us really love to read angst. ;-)

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Queen wrote: "Then I jumped to M-M Romance. Now I barely read other things. I used to read M-F but I didn't like it that much...."

This is a pretty common theme. It's almost a total conversion.

Great and funny story Queen, thanks for sharing.

[[deleted user]]

That's really great, Queen! :)) And I do agree with the Damon post too - about the marginalisation and how m/m gives women a voice. So true! I think the marginalisation gets worse as we get older - sorry, gals!...

Anne
xxx

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Hey, do you have a link to Damon's post? Is that on his website?

[[deleted user]]

It's above, Lisa - message 109 from Ellis :))

Anne
xxx

[Monique]

Anne wrote: "That's really great, Queen! :)) And I do agree with the Damon post too - about the marginalisation and how m/m gives women a voice. So true! I think the marginalisation gets worse as we get older -..."

Anne...are from Liverpool?

[[deleted user]]

No, afraid not, Monique - I'm an Essex Gal, though I've poshed up now and live in Surrey - don't tell the Culture Police!! :))

Anne
xxx

[Monique]

Sorry, the Queen comment, it is a term often used in Liverpool. I was born in Bath, but my husband is a liverpudlian, North Wales is where we live now.

And your secret is safe with me....no TOWIE jokes from this girl!!!

[[deleted user]]

You're so lucky - I'd LOVE to live in Wales!!! We always have the BEST time there! :))

Must dash- have to put my white stilettos and handbag away for this evening! :))

Anne
xxx

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Thanks Anne o_o

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Glad you're here Anna.

:D

[Queen]

Mmm I'm adding books to my to-read list with this thread. I should share my favs :)



I put the first books, but mostly I love all the books of the series.

[NS]

LisaT - We Are Qhuay! wrote: "Ellis wrote: " it isn't constrained by the same rules and stereotypes as mainstream romance, it gives the opportunity to be an advocate and raise awareness, it's challenging because I'll never be w..."

Lis and Ellis, I worried about my friends reactions too! My family/hubby don't knw (I dnt even wanna imagine how thatd go down!) although a couple of my besties knw and they're cool with it. They think it's funny and random but one of them told me its normal and she referred to manga too actually. The psychologist, il get back to u on what she says after I update her on the book!! Lol she's intrigued and finds it really amusing that it's my fetish, she asks me different things and has her own theories so I'll have to let you all know what she says!!

[Geoffrey]

Oh I am SOOOO keen to hear the psychologist's theories. I think she should read this book too!!!

[NS]

I'm gonna try and make her!! Then I will get back to you all :-)

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Geez, I want to talk to your psychologist before and then after she reads Geoffrey's book.

We should also slip her one of his steamier reads and then have her join this thread.

All in the interest of science, of course.

[NS]

Hahaha she can be OUR case study lol Maybe i should get her theories before the book and then get her to read it, see her thoughts on it. Oh and def try and get her to read some steamy scenes, hmmmm perhaps we can turn her into an addict too *lightbulb moment!!

Step one - get her to join goodreads. Wish me luck!

[[deleted user]]

Sounds like a plan, Nathalie!!! :))

[Geoffrey]

Nathalie you should slip her one of Anne's books! They're intelligent AND hot!!! xx

[[deleted user]]

Ha! What a gent you are, Geoffrey - the cheque's in the post, tee hee! I'm not actually sure I CAN do intelligent and hot - way too much like multitasking for me, and today my brain is FUDGE!!... :))

Anne
xxx

[Geoffrey]

I don't believe your brain is fudge at all! And don't bother with the cheque, I'll be writing a scene set in the British Museum soon for a new book and I may need a few tips! :)

[[deleted user]]

Ah, the British Museum - wonderful! Way back when, I used to work at London Uni which was just next door, so my lunch hours were soooo intellectual - shame it didn't stick!! :)) Always happy to help out, but whether I can remember anything useful has set to be seen

:))

Anne
xxx

[Alex is The Romance Fox]

Anne wrote: "That's really great, Queen! :)) And I do agree with the Damon post too - about the marginalisation and how m/m gives women a voice. So true! I think the marginalisation gets worse as we get older -..."

i'm not sure if I agree with the whole marginalisation of women thing...in what way is this happenning to us women? I checked what the word means....to take or keep somebody or something away from the center of attention, influence, or power - are we reading m/m because we don't have the same as men have? - apart from one or two physical differences??? Wow, now i have to worry about all this lacking in me being a woman as i get older!!!!

[Alex is The Romance Fox]

My favourite books in this genre:
Dark Soul Vol. 1 the whole series by Aleksandr Voinov whose writing I absolutely love
Cut & Run Ty & Zane's series by Abigail Roux - some more than others I must admit
The Scientist and the Supermodel by Tara Lain and Crossing Borders by Z>A, Maxfield and not forgetting
Country Mouse by Amy Lane...oh my gosh do i love too many so far ....one last one though Shattered Glass by Dani Alexander....now reading Special Forces - Soldiers and The Administration

[[deleted user]]

I think it comes with age, Alex! :)

[Queen]

Alex wrote: "My favourite books in this genre:
Dark Soul Vol. 1 the whole series by Aleksandr Voinov whose writing I absolutely love
Cut & Run Ty & Zane's series by Abigail Roux - some more than others I must..."

I think I'm going to read The Scientist and the Supermodel. I liked all the books you listed, very much, the only exception is Dark Soul, I just liked it ;)

[Clancy]

I got into m/m by accident my library had a book in that they obviously knew nothing about because it was my first ever experience of man on man love. there weren't vast amounts of it but it piqued my interest and I was talking to someone on the BDB forum who recommended Special Forces, well most of us know that epic, after which I was hooked.

I would love to read the book about why straight women like m/m romance because I know my reasons for reading it, one of which is I got bored with all the big hunks winning the girl who were usually either stupid, weak females who had to be constantly protected or the amazonian kind who had to be practically beaten into submission and of course I know how to do m/f sex so that was boring. It also seemed every time an author got a hit with a book every one and his wife wrote something similar e.g. The Da Vinci Code for one, then there were all the magician books and all the vampire books arrrggh! So although I am not exclusively m/m anything else has to be really good to interest me. I also don't think there are any plots I haven't come across so usually I have solved detective thrillers before the third chapter and thus don't finish them.
I sound a bit jaded don't I? Well I am enjoying my m/m stories for the time being and will move on when something better comes along...

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

@Alex - I think a LOT of women feel marginalized. Pigeon-holed into certain roles because of their gender alone. Obviously there have been great strides but the perception is still there. Certainly, the fear that our progress could be taken away is valid.

I think what Damon is saying is that it's too easy for writers of m/m to demean women, either making them bitches or wimpy hand wringers. He's sending a message to women writers of m/m that you don't have to vilify women in order to raise up men. That, very often, gay men and straight (really all) women have similar issues to overcome. Issues of gender stereotype, sexual subordination and emotional weakness.

In other words, men and women (of all sorts) have more in common than not, we all want the same things; i.e. love and understanding and acceptance, so why not represent an uplifting supporting posture rather than one that marginalizes either sex?

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Clancy wrote: "I got into m/m by accident my library had a book in that they obviously knew nothing about because it was my first ever experience of man on man love. there weren't vast amounts of it but it piqued..."

Yup, I think you've got it. M/M is new (ish), fresh and it gives us tons to think about, understand and explore. Plus there is something for everyone, mystery, paranormal, sci-fi, romance (duh) and seen from a perspective that is new to us.

Nah, you're not jaded, just experienced.

:D

[Alex is The Romance Fox]

LisaT - We Are Qhuay! wrote: "@Alex - I think a LOT of women feel marginalized. Pigeon-holed into certain roles because of their gender alone. Obviously there have been great strides but the perception is still there. Certai..."
I understand what Damon Suede's article says and I do agree that some if not most of the books written by female writers that I have read so far, the females, if there are any in the story, are usually shown in a very negative way, which is something I have been saying for a while and often wondered the reason for it. Males be it gay or not seem most of the times to be just so more understanding, accepting than females.
Regarding pidgeon-holes - is it fair to do this then to the male "straight" population? Not all hetero men have the same characteristics or do they? Is that not vilifying them in a way????

[Alex is The Romance Fox]

Clancy wrote: "I got into m/m by accident my library had a book in that they obviously knew nothing about because it was my first ever experience of man on man love. there weren't vast amounts of it but it piqued..."

I love reading great m/f , f/f, m/m/f and yes m/m books and saying that most of the mn/f genre is filled with whinging and weak heroines who are forced into submission - well i have found that some males can be just that in m/m romance - some of the m/m romance books I have read, which i have not liked at all, starts off with these two fabulous alpha-males, doing all that man thing, they fall in love and soon one of them suddenly becomes a whinger and moaner...just like some of the bad m/f books you have read. Should we be generalising here??? The books in all genres that I loved reading were because I loved the writing, the plot grabbed me, the character development so good that I engaged with the protagonists to the point that I just wanted them to be together. Whilst sex between two men can be a turn on, the same could be said between m/f.....

[[deleted user]]

I just got the link for this discussion and I wanted to add my thoughts (other than I can't wait to read Why Straight Women Love Gay Romance).

I have the anime Sailor Moon to thank for flipping the switch on in me about what exactly pushed my buttons. I was 16-17, just getting into watching the show, found two of the villains who were very obviously involved so compelling that I hopped onto shiny new family computer to learn more about them(this was 96-97, phone modem and all) and when I discovered that one of the pairing has been gender-flipped to be female, that in their native Japan, they were two men, my brain just melted and to be frank, I was turned on. So I went looking for fanfiction and original fiction and discovered the Nifty story archive, and that my parents didn't pay a lot of attention to what I was doing if I was reading a bunch of text.

Fast forward some years later, after really getting into yaoi manga and fanfiction, I realized that the last m/f romance anything I had read was Kushiel's Dart, and any of the others I tried either bored me, left me cold, or the characters made me want to throw the book against a wall. This was before I even knew there was a market for M/M tales our there, so I comforted myself by writing my own tales every year in November for NaNoWriMo. It wasn't until about a year ago that I even knew this genre existed and that it was so robust.

Now I'm like a kid in a candy store. There's so many sub-genres and different ways to write. I love the range of how men are portrayed, that they don't have to be either emotionally constipated alpha males or so emo-ly "misunderstood" that I want to scream "You need a therapist, not a girlfriend" like they sadly are in some (not all) M/F romance novels. That's not to say those types of men don't have fans (they do), or that they're absent from all M/M books (they're not), I just feel that in M/M romance, there's variety and I like it.

For example, it's a rare M/F romance that has, for example, a man that could be described as femme finding romance as the main character and not being stuck as comedy relief or the sassy best friend (though if such a guy were straight and found himself a girlfriend, I would probably give that book a chance, cold feeling below the waist or not). In M/M romance, I don't even have to think too hard to recall titles like Fire Balls or Strawberries for Dessert where that guy gets his story and his happy ending.

We like in a society where the genders have these expectations towards certain behaviors. Women are supposedly more emotional and willing to express them all, men aren't supposed to express emotions other than horny or angry. In these books, I've found men that feel awkward, men that are depressed, men that cry, men that get angry, men who worry, men that melt a little inside when their special someone smiles at them a certain way. In other words, men who act like men I know in real life. And that's what draws me in, what keeps me writing and reading.

Okay, that and I'm a total perv how thinks guy on guy is pretty smoking. I'll confess to that in court. Draw me in with decent sex, keep me there with good characters and a great plot.

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Alex wrote: "Regarding pidgeon-holes - is it fair to do this then to the male "straight" population?"

Absolutely Alex, stereotyping ANY group blindly is just a bad idea.

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Quirkythrope wrote: "I just got the link for this discussion and I wanted to add my thoughts (other than I can't wait to read Why Straight Women Love Gay Romance).I have the anime Sailor Moon to thank for flipping th..."

Quirkythrope, I love your story. And to think I was watching Sailor Moon in the 90's with my girls not noticing any of that. I remember later my daughter bringing home a copy of the Gothic Lolita Bible and showing me "Mana", a model, and being totally blown away. Look, I grew up in So Cal, near Hollywood, I thought I was sort of "with it" but I guess not. Mana didn't turn me on. So, I just didn't consider that any longer.

Now, give me Silvio Spadaro Dark Soul Vol. 1and I'm completely absorbed. Live and learn, I say.

:D

[Clancy]

Alex wrote: "Clancy wrote: "I got into m/m by accident my library had a book in that they obviously knew nothing about because it was my first ever experience of man on man love. there weren't vast amounts of i..."

I wasn't generalising or saying MOST OF I was saying I have read an awful lot like that. I also added it is because everyone jumps on the bandwagon when someone writes a hit story and all of them start writing the same thing. Maybe it is because I am probably much older than a lot of you and have read literally thousands of books over the years and can see a lot of the sameyness. We can perhaps also blame the publishers they have been so afraid over the years about anything raunchy and now that books with more sex in them are accepted they look like putting a toe in the water as far as m/m is concerned and hopefully they won't have censored JR Wards next book too much which contains the joining of two male characters which most of us fans have been avidly waiting for!

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

I think this is true Clancy. I think a lot of readers of m/m are looking for a way to push the envelope. Whether it's for their own entertainment purposes or for purposes of driving forward an agenda, or somewhere in between the two.

I haven't read 50 Shades of Grey but a lot of credit has to go to it for driving 'that' discussion forward. If, Why Straight Women Love Gay Romance can open up a wider discussion on women's (or humanity's)acceptance of same sex relationships, then I want to be right there telling publishers, "this is good stuff, give me more".

[[deleted user]]

I so agree, Lisa - 50 SOG has been a benchmark book for the acceptance of erotic fiction of all flavours, whatever you may think of the book itself. It's not one I particularly want to read but, since it's been published, people have been a lot more interested and able to treat the genre seriously when I say I write gay erotic fiction.

So great news for us all! :))

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Ah, that's good to know Anne. Anything that can bring a little more respect to what you write and what I read. Honestly, it's such a loss for those who haven't got a clue about some of the exceptional writing that is within this genre. It actually frustrates me often. I have people I would really like to share some of these reads with but they wouldn't even consider cracking the cover. Their loss, I suppose.

But, I see their interest lurking underneath the surface.......

[Lisa Arbitrary - AttentionIsArbitrary M/M Blog]

Available for purchase now, everyone.

http://www.mlrbooks.com/ShowBook.php?...

I can't wait to get to discuss your thoughts on the book further. So far, it's all been very insightful and LOTS of fun.