Jlawrence’s Comments (group member since Mar 08, 2010)

Jlawrence’s comments from the The Sword and Laser group.

I haven't gotten there in my re-read yet, but yes, you may be on to something with the spoiler comment.

Also, I would totally buy stock in Cosmic Miracle Gro if their logo was impressive enough.

Noel wrote: Let me see, misogynist diatribe, torture to uphold current doctrine, repression and ruthless extermination of dissenters. Hmmmm does sound that sound like a history of Catholicism at all? Now I find out that a purportedly intelligent author actually converted to this?

Yes, the Catholic church has that in its history, but by no means a historical monopoly (I believe you can also think of deity-less 20th century organizations that achieved the same on much greater scales, yes?). The cruelties of the torturer's guild may indeed be a critique of that portion of Catholic history, there are some similarities indeed - that's interesting to think about...

Also, I personally know modern Catholics who disagree with the current Vatican's positions. I would also imagine that they're not really in alignment with the Spanish Inquisitions' tactics, either. ;)

Lepton wrote: I had thought we had moved beyond the social mores of ancient cultures, don't you think?

We may have moved on. The world of Urth has regressed back to them. That is one of the themes the book explores, that you seem to take as just a case of Wolfe getting his kicks. But history shows that societies can and do collapse, mighty empires do decay, moral and civic progress can regress. That is what the books are reflecting on a large scale, and why they have all those ugly elements. Severian is very much a product of his society, so there's a lot that he accepts. The complex way Wolfe presents that regression through the mixture of science fiction and fantasy elements and through the worldview of the narrator is one of the things that qualifies Book of the New Sun as something worth reading and worth analyzing, whether you regard it as literature, entertainment, or both (or neither).

I also find worthwhile the strength of the imagery and writing, the layers of possible interpretations and, as Jenny and Adrienne mentioned, the complexity of Severian's character (including his moral failings) and the sense of otherworldliness.

Lepton wrote: but I can certainly think of literature that indeed did not include rape, torture, and murder...

I can, too, but if you are taking the position (correct me if I'm wrong) that the inclusion of any of those things automatically makes a work irredeemable, than the following works are irredeemable:

The Bible, The Odyssey, The Iliad, The Oresteia, Oedipus Rex, Medea, The Aeneid, Ovid's Metamorphoses, Dante's Inferno, Crime & Punishment, The Brothers Karamazov, the list could go on and on...

You say an author is free to write anything -- but you seem to not believe this *should* be the case, since you only want authors to write about non-ugly things. The exercise of their freedom to write about ugly things is itself an immoral act to you. You are entitled to that position, but it really leaves no room for discussion of a vast many things, fictional and real.

The hut scene totally confused me too when I first read the book, Sgtdetritus, but now it seems clear to me it was the series' introduction of time travel, which does play a role in the plot.

Hm, yeah I think the tunnels are just tunnels -- they were built after the craft was no longer used as a vehicle. They are just under the "propulsion chamber" of the craft.

It's mostly the combination of its shape (a tower), the description of the cockpit, the bulkheads and the mention of "the propulsion chamber of the original structure" that are the clues.

Looking online for a illustration of the Matachin Tower, I just discovered there was an early '90s comic book adaption of Shadow!

Someone posted a scan of how it depicted the tower:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mordicai...

Later I'll try to scan in Andre-Driussi's diagram of it, which is slightly different.

When I initially read the series, the green man in the tent's conversation with Severian seemed to introduce time travel into the series. During this re-read, I now see it as solidifying the presence of time travel, the actual introduction of it being the jungle hut scene in the Botanical Gardens.

It's very interesting that the green man claims to come from a future where Urth's sun is brighter, enough so for him to be able to live off photosynthesis via the chlorophyll in his veins. We've previously been given bits of Urth mythology about a rekindling of the sun, but here is a being that claims to be from a future where it's actually happened, the first positive sign of possible redemption for Urth.

What do you think of the green man, time travel, and the hint at redemption?

Sean wrote: "Norman presents Gor as an awesome place, whereas Gilead is a dystopia. Atwood suffers from a severe case of anviliciousness, so there's no doubt that her book isn't misogynistic. Wolfe, however, goes for subtlety so it's possible for someone doing a shallow reading to come away thinking The Book of the New Sun is on the side of Gor."

Yes. I wrote above that Severian's society is "depicted as fallen" in the books, but this isn't consistently true. Severian has an urge to upturn the social order that rushes up occasionally, but in his usual actions and thought, he actually accepts a *great* deal of how his society is run. So the fact it is fallen is not telegraphed a la a usual dystopia, but pieced together over time.

Jenny wrote: Jlawrence wrote: "A reader is also to free to imagine that when an author creates an unjust or morally corrupt fictional society, it automatically means the author can only be *endorsing* that society."

This is also true. I think we had a similar discussion when reading The Windup Girl... was the violence necessary, etc. So while I don't know anything about Gene Wolfe and wouldn't probably use misogynist as my first label, that doesn't mean the books themselves don't contain misogyny. "

Yeah, I was mostly responding to Lepton's suggestion, through his layers of sarcasm, that because Wolfe includes horrible things -- misogyny, institutionalized brutality (note that 4, 5, 6 and 7 apply equally to Urth males) -- in his fictional society, that that means Wolfe is in favor of those things. I think it's a major fallacy to assume that an author who presents unjust or cruel things in their fiction *must* be in favor of them.

*Sometimes* it's true - Dante certainly felt that all the gruesome tortures depicted in his Inferno were completely just and necessary. He felt this so strongly that he placed some of his personal enemies among the recipients of these tortures.

But Severian's society is not a locale for the meting out of an absolute divine (or Dante-esque) justice, it's a deeply flawed, human society. Much more than deeply flawed, it is repeatedly depicted as a *fallen* society - a society in a massive state of regression and degradation. This regression applies across the whole societal range - social equality, scientific knowledge, political and judicial systems, etc. This includes institutionalized brutality towards females and males whom the state declares criminals, legalized slavery, prostitution, etc.

And it includes misogyny, both in its general culture and, I believe, in Severian's worldview. But I don't think Severian's worldview nor his society's worldview = Wolfe's worldview. Severian is not one of those characters who acts as the author's surrogate or mouthpiece, instead Severain reveals what this fictional world is like, what its values are, and what his own distinct personality consists of.

As a related note, it's interesting to me the way Severian views his fallen society. He has repeated daydreams of upturning the social order and wiping away the layers of ignorance and corruption. This is the motivation of his swearing allegiance to Voldalus. We are introduced to this feeling of his as early as chapter 1.

He's no crusader, though. His extreme emotional loyalty to the torturer's guild contradicts his revolutionary impulse. He does not put the work into untangling this contradiction, and is left with the muddle of believing he can be both a servant to the guild and to Vodalus. It makes him a complex, morally flawed character, but this is believable - I know plenty of people with contradictory beliefs. ;)

For a Wolfe character who is a kind of an anti-Severian, who is not morally flawed and actively crusades against an unjust social order, see Father Silk from the Book of the Long Sun.

Thanks, Philip, that was totally the intent! To catch people's interest with a few details. I still felt bad that a few people felt spoiled, though. I generally hate spoilers myself, too. :)

I highlighted a bit of this in the Science Fiction in My Fantasy thread -- the picture-cleaner also comments on the picture of the astronaut, saying,

"There's your blue Urth coming over his [the figure in the picture's] shoulder, fresh as the Autarch's fish".

The two have this exchange:

"I managed to say, 'Is that the moon? I have been told it's more fertile.'

'Now it is, yes. This was done before they got it irrigated.' "
(pg. 38)

So Severian knows of travel to the moon, and terraforming of the moon.

Jared, I am interested if there's significance to those other paintings.

I used to have a horrible habit of always starting more books while I was half-way through others, so I'd end up reading five or so at a time, and two would fall by the wayside and then be picked up later, very messy. ;)

Now I read two books at once at the most. Sometimes one fiction and one non-fiction, like Larry.

A reader is also to free to imagine that when an author creates an unjust or morally corrupt fictional society, it automatically means the author can only be *endorsing* that society. A reader retains this freedom regardless of how ludicrous its use in interpretation is.

Ditto with Jared's comment. *So* much more I'm noticing both from my re-read, and from great comments here.

The interview was really, really excellent. I like Rothfuss even more now.

I'd like to belatedly apologize to those who felt spoiled by the kick-off for Shadow & Claw. I was excited to give some concrete, early chapter examples of how excellently the books combine sword and laser, but I should have given a spoiler warning before doing so, for people who wanted to figure out those things on their own.

Yeah, I've even been spoiled (by things I didn't remember) by the direction some threads I've started already went in, so I know this feeling!

I think puzzling things out for themselves is a way some people enjoy Book of the New Sun, so that's why spoilers in this case can feel even more spoilery than usual.

OK, I've added book/chapter notes to my spoiler threads (besides the one linked above), but a warning of "the thread might end up going farther than that" still applies. But if people try to label spoiler replies with book/chapter notes too, that'll definitely help.

That's a great idea, terpkristin.

In the You've Got Science Fiction in my Fantasy thread, I encouraged people to put the book and chapter they were discussing at the top of each post, and that discussion mostly moves forward chronologically, so it's pretty safe to navigate.

For the other threads I've started with spoilers, I'll change the titles to reflect what part the first post talks about.

Warning, though - many things are circled back to in the later books, so it's inevitable that spoilers from later will (and already have) come up as those threads continue.

So maybe we can encourage people to give a book/chapter warning when referencing things later in the books, like in the thread linked above?

terpkristin wrote: "... and would allow easier lookup of the obscure words in the text."

I just discovered though the magic of Google Books, you can view some of Wolfe's essay "Words Weird and Wonderful" online - he defines a number of the obscure words from Shadow in it:

Words Weird and Wonderful online

Note that Google Books strategically omits certain pages, though, so that it remains a "preview."

I forgot another very important resource - "Castle of the Otter" which is a collection of Gene Wolfe's own essays about Book of the New Sun. It is included in the book Castle of Days.

He writes about his motivations behind writing it, the epigrams used in it, his use of names and obscure words, the writing process, various aspects of its world, and my favorite piece - "These Are the Jokes" - in which major and minor New Sun characters each tell one joke in their own distinctive voice.

Edit: Thanks to Google Books, you can view portions of the Castle of the Otter essay "Words Weird and Wonderful" in which he defines some of the obscure words from Shadow:

Words Weird and Wonderful online

Note that Google Books strategically omits certain pages, though, so that it remains a "preview."

The Book of the New Sun is comprised of four books - it's a novel in four parts.

Urth of the New Sun is a sequel or epilogue to Book of the New Sun. I'm not a big fan of it, but I will probably attempt a re-read after finishing this read of Book of the New Sun.

There is also the 4-part Book of the Long Sun and 3-part Book of the Short Sun that are very tangentially connected to Book of the New Sun.

Michael Andre-Driussi calls The Book of the New Sun + Urth of the New Sun "The Urth Cycle". All of these "Sun" books together are sometimes called "The Solar Cycle".