Jlawrence’s Comments (group member since Mar 08, 2010)

Jlawrence’s comments from the The Sword and Laser group.

I mostly have noticed things Wolfe has borrowed:

The lake around the island of the averns reminds me of the Dead Marshes from Lord of the Rings (I can't help partially picturing it the way it's portrayed in the film ;) ).

The first time I read the series many aspects reminded me of Jorge Borges. Borges likes to make precise, surreal but somehow logical constructs out of fantastical ideas. During this re-read I've learned there are a number of direct Borges references or borrowings in the New Sun -- Father Inire's Fish (spoiler, Shadow, chapter 20) for instance. Baldanders has an entry in the same Borges book as the Fish.

Mentioned before, Wolfe gives credit to Jack Vance's The Dying Earth as a big inspiration in terms of setting, mood and theme.

Hmm, I don't think so - but maybe there's something further on I'm forgetting.

Got it in the mail yesterday, all ready for Thursday's signing. I won't be reading it until I finish re-reading Book of the New Sun, though.

OMG, that's brilliant! :D

I also like eidolon, fuligin, cacogen, anchorite, alzabo, atroxes and many others. I may have to get the audio book just to see how many of the more obscure ones are pronounced.

Yeah, the end of Shadow describes that happening to Dorcas.

Ed wrote: His rescue is too convenient. He quasi-drowns a lot whenever he goes swimming. Maybe that's because that's how he was supposed to have died.

Ah, yeah, we have seen multiple incidents of him almost-drowning and being rescued, so maybe there is something to that.

Ed wrote: "She's likely a time traveller, yes, and the Atrium of Time might be a kind of TARDIS..."

I've read that suggestion somewhere before, but I haven't analyzed that scene closely. What are the clues in it that she's a time traveller?

Ed wrote, "I think in actuality he did drown, as evidenced by the visions he reports, but a time traveller changed the timestream to prevent his death."

Hm, but at various other times he again has visions both of the giant aquatic women and Master Malrubius -- and those other times *don't* involve near-death situations (so far in my re-read). Is there something specific about this first time he has the visions that makes you think a time traveller saved him / brought him back to life from drowning?

The woman he meets very early on in the Atrium of Time?

Here's a cruddy capture of Andre-Driussi's diagram of Matachin Tower:

I realized Jack Vance's Dying Earth, one of the earliest sci-fi/fantasy mixes and a big inspiration for Book of the New Sun, isn't on this list yet.

Yes, I can't claim all of it will make sense when you do so, but hopefully more of it will. ;)

terpkristin wrote: "What I wrote in the first post is literally my first blush thinking about what's gone on,what I've been confused by. In the Jungle Hut thread, I saw at least one commenter was so thrown by it, they stopped reading the book. I'm guessing that once I've finished the New Sun quartet, I'll probably be able to look back and fit it in, but as a first-time reader, it's jarring...and does feel out of place.

I'm not as much looking for answers as I am writing down things I think I need to revisit (and certainty appreciate the insight from you guys who have read this before) when I finish at least this half of the New Sun. I'm guessing that there are others like me in this group who, aren not far past this scene (like me), and who aren't sure what to make of things quite yet. "

Oh, I in no way meant to imply the scene isn't jarring and surreal -- I mentioned in the Jungle Hut thread that the first time I read the series I could make no sense of that scene (I just sort of absorbed it in the way one might absorb a surreal scene in a David Lynch film ;) ). It is definitely only in retrospect that it's seeming to fit in more (though I still have some questions about it). There's other scenes that will also be like that - I think it's one of Wolfe's tactics to throw you off with things that may only (possibly) make sense later.

So the answers I'm giving are not meant to suggest "of course it's this way" -- I'm just trying to give suggestions to keep you and others from getting frustrated. :)

Colin, I do like that idea, and, even if it wasn't directly the Claw, that the pull of time travel is behind Severian's otherwise mysterious attraction to staying in the Gardens. The only thing that makes me think it's not necessarily the Claw is that Agia says that various other people (obviously Claw-less) have also been tempted to remain in the Gardens.

terpkristin wrote: "I know the item of which you speak, Colin, though I haven't seen it in action as it were. I thought he'd taken off his clothes, though (at least his top), for the fight, so wasn't sure if that could be related...unless it's formed some sort of a bond with him. "

Dorcas suggested they fight naked, which is one of the options, as that would have forced Severian's opponent to give up his armor, but the opponent refused, only agreeing to take off his shirt to match Severian's shirt-less ness. The object was in Severian's sabretache during his fight, which is not described as being taken off (he takes his torturer's mask out of the sabretache to wear, right before the first leaf is thrown at him).

terprkistin wrote: "Ed wrote: "2) then 1) If the Botanical Gardens utilize time travel in some fashion (and I agree, see Jungle Hut thread), then maybe the reason why Severian is so affected by them is because Severian is somehoecause Severian is somehow drawn to time travel."

Have you read the book before? Or the entire New Sun quartet?

It seems to me that there are only modest inklings of something supernatural...which COULD be time travel, but only having just started Claw, I'm not seeing much positive proof as it were. I'm thinking, though, that some of it might be more obvious in retrospect."

My view (so far) is the time travel is technological, not magical. I do like the idea that the Gardens' relation to time travel is what draws Severian to stay there, that would be a nice tying together of some elements.

Colin, I also like the idea of the "corpses" in the lake actually being in suspended animation instead.

1) In addition to what Ed said, Agia mentions that the Autarch wants certain people to be lured into staying at the Gardens (and Father Inire devised the means to accomplish this)...since Severian, in his loyalty to Vodalus, is an enemy of the Autrach, maybe there's something to that.

2) My current theory (elaborated in that other thread) is that the hut scene is the introduction of time travel in the series, though there's probably more to it than just that.

3) My guess at this point is that Dorcas was one of those interred in the lake, and was woken (from death?) by Severian when he fell in -- woke just as he was losing consciousness, and then she brought him out of the lake with her, just after she surfaced. As Ed said, I remember there's more about her identity revealed later.

4) Yeah, I believe he is who Severian thinks he is, but if he's a underground revolutionary and a grave-robber to boot, he has no reason to risk trusting Severian yet.

5) Edit: You'll find out about Agia's intentions very shortly.

The avern is really poisonous. Currently I'm taking Severian's survival as one of those 'here's the first sign this person may be different from other people' kind of moments, but it may end up being something else...

Lepton: I would have preferred that he flushed his dirty hankies down the toilet than subject the world to such abject garbage.

Well, there's not much more to discuss, then. I wish you better luck with the next book you read. :)

Sean wrote: "That's not weird. Weird is when you dream the world's been taken over by mutant Jello, and instead of bits of fruit inside they have body parts from people they've eaten."

But Sean, that's just an extrapolation of the Gelatinous Cube from D&D ;)

I really like the phrase "(his word, because he's an asshole bear)". :)

Yes, they both are good fodder for writing exercises. I actually like the bus a bit more since it has an everyday setting that's off-kilter and then slips into pure horror (maybe the bus is a relative of Christine!). But the first dream could be used for an action fantasy workout, like Colin said.

I barely remember them (read some in jr. high) but Piers Anthony's Apprentice Adept series had this mix.

Robert Silverberg's Majipoor series had it too - at least the mix of feudal setting, fantasy trappings with high technology, but I don't remember if there was a belief in magic in it.