Jlawrence’s Comments (group member since Mar 08, 2010)

Jlawrence’s comments from the The Sword and Laser group.

San Diego Comic Con and Dragon*Con. Hopefully Tom and Veronica will arrange a S&L meetup at Dragon*Con again this year (why wouldn't they??).

Just wanted to see if folks were interested in continuing discussion of the rest of the New Sun books in this forum. Even though it's the 'Shadow & Claw' forum, I know a number of you are continuing with, or have already read, the other books, and they're so intertwined it seems it would make sense to keep discussing them here, as long as we mark the threads titles to let people know they're from the later books, like:

'Topic (Sword, ch. 4)' etc.

What do you think?

Totally agree. My copy of Shadow & Claw is filled with underlines and notes in the margin from this re-read. Noticing so many things I didn't the first time -- a lot of them thanks to the great observations in this discussion group.

An interesting aspect of my re-read so far is my changed and still changing reaction to Severian. I had remembered him being cold but also, outside of his profession, somehow likable.

I've found this less the case this time, mostly because I'm paying more attention to what he says and does to others. One annoyance was how he claims he falls in love with every one of the main female characters (in different ways, granted, but come on).

More disturbing was how, despite his arguments to the contrary, the cruelty of his profession does leak out into his dealings with non-clients at times, as when he needlessly intimidated and frightened the fake-Thecla prostitute in the House Azure, after the illusion of her being Thecla broke. Moments like that are balanced however, by moments of mercy, as when he had captured Agia and freed her, at certain future risk to himself.

Despite feeling more distance from him this time around, I still find him fascinating for his way of viewing things, his musings (sometimes charming asides, sometimes revelations of the skewed-seeming Urthian world-view), the complexity given to his narration though multiple factors ("perfect" memory but some of them perhaps imagined; the way he contradicts himself; Thecla's memories and shared consciousness), the moments hinting at moral growth, and finally just his distinctive voice.

What do you think of him, having finished Claw?

Yes, yes he is.

I truly don't remember if we see the Green Man again, though - so no promises about that. ;)

It's kind of a mystery to me too. A lot of smaller/b-movie Lovecraft films have been made, but it seems time for a bigger one. Unless the Old Ones themselves are against big screen mass media exposure.

Well, unless they know something about his parentage (that we as readers don't know yet), and that parentage indicates to them that he'd be important to them eventually. But if that ends up not being a factor, I see your point, prescience or time travel would have to be involved.

Oh, I totally don't trust her motives (and neither does Severian apparently). My remark about the drowning (re the Green Man thread) was in relation to your idea that his being saved was a time-traveller's intervention - it could just be that he's been watched by Abaia and his Undines since he was a youth, which wouldn't require time-travel intervention. I still like that time-travel intervention possibility, however.

Tamahome wrote: "That scent pack reminds me of the old Infocom game 'The Leather Goddesses of Phobos', which came with a scratch n' sniff card."

Tamahome, have you seen Get Lamp?

I remember when I first read these books, and the immense undine speaks to Severian (her immense face looming right beneath the river's surface), I felt like the story had crossed from fantasy-that's-really-science-fiction back into actual fantasy.

This time, given more thought to water being able to support much larger human-shaped bodies than possible on land, and the mentions of some undines living "between the stars" (where the lack of gravity would also make their giant bodies a physical possibility), I'm more inclined to accept them on a science-fiction basis, but I'm very curious about their origins (incredibly mutated humans? extraterrestrial? don't remember if we get more of their history in the other books). What do you think?

It's also interesting that as well as wanting Severian's allegiance, she claims to have saved him when he almost drowned in Gyoll as described in the beginning of Shadow (meaning his vision of a giant woman then was a memory of what actually happened, if she's telling the truth).

Adrienne wrote: "Lepton wrote: "More like dandelion."

Hmm, that's probably less marketable than arugula. "

But not impossible to market:

Jenny, well I think he's definitely there as a concrete sign that there's *some* hope for Urth -- I'll be finding out if there's further reference to him as I start Sword & Citadel.

Spoiler, CLAW, ch 28



Ed wrote (about a time-traveller maybe saving Severian):

"jlawrence: 'Is there something specific about this first time he has the visions that makes you think a time traveller saved him / brought him back to life from drowning?'

His rescue is too convenient. He quasi-drowns a lot whenever he goes swimming. Maybe that's because that's how he was supposed to have died."

Well, now I've read near the end of Claw where the giant undine claims to have saved Severian when he almost drowned in Gyoll. It's interesting because that would mean it was not a vision he had while unconscious after almost drowning, but an actual memory of her saving him. Of course, she could be lying, but if she's able to swim all the way to the relatively small river where she speaks to him, she definitely could swim in the much larger Gyoll. Also, the sea monster Abaia and his undines seem to have a real interest in Severian.

He could also just be having a vision *again*, but the fact Dorcas sees the undine too leads me to believe we're supposed to believe in the undine's reality.

Adrienne wrote: "I guess I think Severian would be more likely to manufacture a memory of it than Thecla would."

Ah, yes, that's a good point, especially given the sleep-with-everyone impulses he displays throughout (that was something I had forgotten before this re-read!).

Adrienne wrote: "Unrelatedly, I keep trying to put these books on back on my bookshelf, and then I pull them out to look something up. Argh, I've been sucked in!"

Mwhahaha! Welcome to Wolfeland. ;)

Yeah, it seemed to have some strong specific psychological component to it to instantly implant self-destructive impulses in someone who didn't previously have any, so I assumed it was some advanced mind manipulation tech.

LOL! That discussion could have endless examples. ;)

Veronica wrote: "He said yes! Abercrombie said yes! And there was much rejoicing."

Wow! Awesome!

Yeah, maybe it's reading too much into the two-consciousnesses aspect, but it seems like a possibility...

Ed wrote: "I think that having Thecla's memories and personality definitely color his own memories, so she's undoubtedly described in a more favorite light in Severian's memoir that an impartial observer might report..."

Yes, but I also like this: while Severian early on told us he wonders if some of his memories are created by his mind instead of recalled from experience, after we learn of this ritual, we now have to wonder not only if any memory involving both him and Thecla (the various ones of them sleeping together for instance) is real, but also, if it's not real, which one of the two consciousnesses within him might have wished it into being...

Truly Wolfeian.

Colin wrote: "It does make me wonder though, at HOW the memory transfer occurred. Granted I haven't actually sampled Long Pig, nor do i know anyone who has, but that part of it puzzled me.

I forget who said it to Sev, about how the "wine" or whatever it was, allowed them to eat the flesh and get the 'benefits'? Was that the wording of it? When i read it, i recall being left with the impression that it only allowed them to eat Her without puking it back up? "

Ultan mentions how it works when Severian first asks him about it early in Shadow -- as well as eating the flesh you must also take "a certain pharmacon" -- this is the alzabo extract that's in the wine. The alzabo is a creature that takes on the personality of that it devours. So it has an in-world explanation, as well as the already-discussed echoes of ancient reasons/rituals surrounding cannibalism.

Jenny wrote: "It makes me wonder if the disparity we were feeling between what we thought happened between Severian and Thecla and what he would remember is because he's remembering her memories, which might be ..."

Yes! That's a whole angle I'm considering this time that I didn't at all on my first read. It gets pretty tangled, because along with those memories (wishes?) of them being much, much closer than he initially suggested, there's also when he describes his hands, apparently under Thecla's control, trying to pluck out his eyes (echoing the earlier passage mentioned in the Unreliable Narrator thread.)